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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:30:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 17/03/2010 22:36:20
 Originally by: M'ktakh
Originally by: Furb Killer
So chicken and egg problem, as soon as we make a space battleship, others will also make them to shoot at.
Quote:
remember, there is no stealth in space
Why not? Granted you should have very good visibility, but i wouldnt call it impossible to at least make something that is hard to detect. Otherwise you for sure dont have to worry about lasers, since i would just make every surface reflective.
WTB 0K balckbody coating.
WTB 100%, all-angle, all wavelength reflecting material.
Granted temperature would be a problem indeed, although i wouldnt call it impossible that fast. The largest problem would be firing a projectile (since we were talking about projectiles) without it heating up too much. But besides that with some liquid helium around the actual projectile for example, it should be possible to keep it at a few kelvin, and background radiation should be sufficient to mask that.
And WTB all wavelength laser. Not every wavelength would result in usefull laser, so no need to reflect them all. But since you were asking, any superconductor would do (yeah i realise that would be a bit of a problem, but since we already have liquid helium i would say we could finish that before our battleship is ready for launch).
Edit: Personall i would also fill space with cheap decoys.
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M'ktakh
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:37:00 -
[62]
Space is ~3K. Everything above 3K is going to get detected fast.
As for lasers: any wavelength that gets absorbed (in a ship deep enough, this will mean 100% of any beam do to distortion and such) is useful.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:39:00 -
[63]
Originally by: M'ktakh
Space is ~3K. Everything above 3K is going to get detected fast.
As for lasers: any wavelength that gets absorbed (in a ship deep enough, this will mean 100% of any beam do to distortion and such) is useful.
EM waves cannot possibly penetrate a spherical superconductor.
And liquid helium is around that temperature too...
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:50:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Furb Killer
And WTB all wavelength laser. Not every wavelength would result in usefull laser, so no need to reflect them all.
Here's the problem: mirrors aren't 100% efficient. The non-zero percentage of the beam that your mirror absorbs will damage the mirror and remove its reflective properties.
Quote:
Edit: Personall i would also fill space with cheap decoys.
Decoys don't work. Once you have a decoy that can match the heat output and thrust to mass ratio (your exhaust is visible, a little math gives you the total thrust the engine is producing, divide observed acceleration by thrust to get the mass of the object) of a real ship, you've got something so large and expensive that you might as well just add some weapons and turn it into a full warship.
That said, the decoy equivalent of anti-missile flares will still be useful, but only for the extremely short-term purpose of fooling an incoming weapon long enough to cause it to miss.
Originally by: Furb Killer
And liquid helium is around that temperature too...
So now you have a liquid helium coated un-guided (guidance system = electronics = heat = no more "stealth") that has severely limited velocity (because your launch mechanism can not produce any heat) and probably won't be able to hide from active sensors. When you're talking about something that expensive and complicated, why not just add a guidance system and turn it into a missile?
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M'ktakh
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Posted - 2010.03.17 23:02:00 -
[65]
I think "Gauss weapons" might solve the "no heat from weapons" problem. Or at least mitigate it. No need to stick with chemical accelerators.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.03.17 23:04:00 -
[66]
how much heat would a rail or coil gun produce in an environment like space?
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Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.17 23:18:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Grimpak
how much heat would a rail or coil gun produce in an environment like space?
Railguns: tons of it. In fact, friction between the rails and the projectile is one of the major problems with railguns right now, there's so much heat that you either weld the projectile to the rails, or have to replace the rails after every shot. Needless to say, you aren't going to be hiding your glowing hot railgun projectiles from anyone.
Coil gun: in theory, none, as there is no contact between the projectile and the weapon. This of course assumes that you have a way of keeping your projectile cooled to the background temperature until it is fired. However, it doesn't really matter since active sensors will probably spot the incoming projectile anyway.
To the firing ship: who cares. You can't stealth it anyway, and your radiators and heat sinks have been designed to match the heat output of your systems.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.18 07:34:00 -
[68]
Quote:
So now you have a liquid helium coated un-guided (guidance system = electronics = heat = no more "stealth")
I would more worry about the thrusters required for guidance. The heat from electronics only will be very little, and with some insulation + your liquid helium it should stay long cold long enough. (Also why the claim from the link you posted earlier that masking heat is impossible due to your living area being 300K is a bit weird. I dont say it is realisticly possible, but theoretical with very good insulation you only have little eat (the amount produced by the electronics, humans, etc) that needs to be radiated into space)
And like i said before, a superconductor acts as mirror for EM waves of every frequency (that is if i did pay enough attention when i had that subject).
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.18 08:05:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Furb Killer
I would more worry about the thrusters required for guidance.
Obviously that gives it away, but the advantage of a guided weapon is that it's much harder to kill. Not only can it dodge un-guided point defense shots, but you need to actually kill it to stop it, not just knock it off course a bit. That means a lot more time with the point defense laser to stop each incoming shot, and much higher chances of the other missiles getting through.
Quote:
The heat from electronics only will be very little, and with some insulation + your liquid helium it should stay long cold long enough.
The problem is ANY heat will show up, and not only will your electronics be generating waste heat, but those delicate systems probably don't work too well at the temperature of liquid helium. If your projectile is anything other than an inert lump of helium-coated rock, you're going to be producing heat, and heat breaks stealth.
Quote:
(Also why the claim from the link you posted earlier that masking heat is impossible due to your living area being 300K is a bit weird. I dont say it is realisticly possible, but theoretical with very good insulation you only have little eat (the amount produced by the electronics, humans, etc) that needs to be radiated into space)
The problem with this idea is that insulation only slows the transfer of heat, it doesn't eliminate it entirely. Without active cooling, eventually your insulation reaches 300k (or at least well above background temperature). And if you try to use some kind of active cooling system, congratulations, you just generated a bunch of waste heat that has to be removed somehow. Now the area around the crew section is a nice .001k, but your radiators are glowing red hot.
Worse is the problem of keeping the temperature from going ABOVE 300k. Especially with this awesome insulation working both ways, all the heat generated in the crew section is just going to stay there. Add in waste heat from electronics, your reactor, etc, and you either need to dump the heat (goodbye stealth) or bake your crew.
Quote:
And like i said before, a superconductor acts as mirror for EM waves of every frequency (that is if i did pay enough attention when i had that subject).
Again, the problem is efficiency. Even if the superconductor mirror is 99% efficient, it's still absorbing energy. This is a huge problem, because at the power levels required to make a laser a useful weapon, that 1% is going to damage the mirror, at which point your mirror's efficiency drops even more, producing more damage, etc.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.18 08:28:00 -
[70]
Super conductors would get quite a bit above that probably, and should be able to absorb some without too much issues. Downside would be that it doesnt matter that much what you do with your heat signature, since you would light up anyway on every radar screen.
And with insulation you of course need to obtain equilibrium, so in the end you need to radiate some heat from electronics, humans, etc like i said. However theoretically you should be able to make it that no additional heating is required for humans.
Regarding the operating temperature of electronics, obviously normal components cant be used, but cryogenic electronics are already used (granted i dont think cooled to only a few kelvin, but at least cooled to very low temperatures). Advantage is that thermal noise is minimised (which is something you probably want anyway in your sensor systems).
Anyway what we obviously learn from this, it is just easier to hide your super secret battleship armada behind the moon.
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Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2010.03.18 09:28:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
What about lead shielding? 
also someone said something to the effect of 'lol plasma drives? ******' so I is gonna link This.
Um, how much lead were you planning on lofting into space?
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat
WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.03.18 11:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Anyway what we obviously learn from this, it is just easier to hide your super secret battleship armada behind the moon.
or active electronic countermesures, like sensor scrambling or chaff or flares of sorts.
I've noticed that the more we talk, the more clsoe we get to EVE gameplay
there are cloaks in game yes, but they come up very restrictive or in need of specialized hulls, and then the best way to knock someone out of the fight is to make him unable to lock on to anyone.
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Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Yesh
SandStorm.
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Posted - 2010.03.18 12:48:00 -
[73]
Originally by: masternerdguy
To make a simple interplannetary or local (around earth orbit for example) battleship is well within our current capabilities. We have viable weapon systems such as
1. Missiles
2. Artillary
3. Railguns |
Leviathan9
Gallente
Astrophysical Engineering
War and Pestilence
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Posted - 2010.03.18 19:11:00 -
[74]
Originally by: masternerdguy
We have emerging technologies such as carbon nanotubes that could make the structures not only stronger but lighter and therefore less expensive to make.
I'm pretty sure carbon nanotubes are pretty expensive to make. They only make strands of it as far as i'm aware, correct me if i'm wrong. Anyway it would probs be more expensive to make something out of carbon nanotubes than titanium and steel and w/e normally materials they use to make space craft. |
SkyLordUK
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2010.03.21 04:20:00 -
[75]
Edited by: SkyLordUK on 21/03/2010 04:24:10
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Grimpak
how much heat would a rail or coil gun produce in an environment like space?
Railguns: tons of it. In fact, friction between the rails and the projectile is one of the major problems with railguns right now, there's so much heat that you either weld the projectile to the rails, or have to replace the rails after every shot. Needless to say, you aren't going to be hiding your glowing hot railgun projectiles from anyone.
...
Your wrong the whole issue with replacing the rails has been minimized to the extent that there are practical for use the USNavy have their first batch coming out with their new designed crusiers in around 2020-2025 
edit: oh yea Specs:
Range 220+ nautical miles (1.1miles per 1 NM)
Accuracy: 5 meter target at maximum range 
Muzzle Veloicty: around the Mach 6-7 area
Damage: Solid slug > Tomahawk Cruse Missile
ROF: 10 shells a minute
Alternative ammo: Shrapnel rounds for soft land targets (1000's of ball barrings  )
Sky.
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Jumping Gates is like a box of sweets
You just dont know were the sour one is |
Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Swarm of Angry Bees
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Posted - 2010.03.21 05:22:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
What about lead shielding?
Um, how much lead were you planning on lofting into space?
ALOT. Look, I read it in a Michael Crichton novel, leave me alone! 
more stupid musings: what are the odds of throwing a phalanx missle point defense system on these things...I bet a single missile wouldn't get through but I bet that's an overwhelming heat generating source.
>
WHILE SIG<AWESOME DO
LOOP
there is no escape from my crappy sig. |
masternerdguy
Gallente
Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.03.21 05:28:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
What about lead shielding?
Um, how much lead were you planning on lofting into space?
ALOT. Look, I read it in a Michael Crichton novel, leave me alone!
more stupid musings: what are the odds of throwing a phalanx missle point defense system on these things...I bet a single missile wouldn't get through but I bet that's an overwhelming heat generating source.
an alternative might be to use a laser based AMS
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