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wakalaka
Information And Entropy
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Posted - 2010.03.19 11:21:00 -
[61]
Do you want to know how I made my first 1.5 billion ISK ingame?
Someone set up a contract for a capital ship part BPC. Only it wasn't a BPC, it was the BPO. In fact, that poor soul set up his whole capital BPO library on contracts while confusing them with BPC, but I was only in time to get hold of one of them. Which is to say, there are quite some people who profit and make a career into looking for contracts like that. Unfortunately the contracts were corporate ones, so I don't know who did it, but what a bad day, guy!
This is EvE. What OP proposes is logical and necessary to avoid stupid mistakes. There are many things (most UI related). But it's not EvE, a game that encourages scamming and suicides induced by the UI, without any safeguards.
So, here you have the two faces of my dime.
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Newtonius Rex
Triturus Logistics and Exploration Support
Harmonious Ascent
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Posted - 2010.03.19 12:07:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Tellenta
..... I fear the repercussions if CCP decides to try fixing some old code like that, jump gates won't work, guns won't fire, dogs and cats living together, MASS HYSTERIA!!!
Best post in this thread 
- Live to Fly - Fly to Live -
Power is Nothing Without Control |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.19 12:24:00 -
[63]
Quote:
Someone set up a contract for a capital ship part BPC. Only it wasn't a BPC, it was the BPO.
Now, now! you are spoiling my riddle:
Quote:
Now, use your graduation to find out the banal reason why it's like that and why it's better it stays like that than not.
Eve is made and lives and is special because it got SO MANY ripples, so many mini games, so many opportunities, so many styles.
Thanks to the clumsy UI a guy just made a billion: he knows how to play the contracts minigame and find out for hidden riches like the mistaken BPC that in reality were BPOs.
Thanks to the missing flag, the suicide ganker has the thrill and suspension when scanning incoming ships. No "bah, 95% are carrying worthless BPCs, I give up" but: "this dude got 4 different cap ship construction components blueprints. Pop him? Risk? Maybe it's a wagon of money. Maybe it's a toss.
Thanks to the dubious interface, a guy just bought a missile launcher for 120000000 isk, another outplayed a bidder by putting an "8" in a long series of "9"...
Thanks to the UI quirks, no one is super-safe. "Dammit, forgot to pay" => POS offlined and possibly wasted. Sov drops.
It's BAD things... that make EvE multi-dimensional, rich, unique.
No super-streamlined, tard proof smooth perfection where you have a wizard that drives you to find your wily. Boring perfection. The marvel is in diversity, in unforeseeable events, in NOT knowing what's next. In the journey.
Only the zero benefits UI misfeatures (IE the LP store) should be really fixed, as they don't give opportunities and tears.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Tasty Bit
Gallente
UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2010.03.19 12:35:00 -
[64]
Please don't question anything ever. Everything is fine.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.03.19 12:38:00 -
[65]
Just fix it.
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Paknac Queltel
Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:15:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
It's BAD things... that make EvE multi-dimensional, rich, unique.
No super-streamlined, tard proof smooth perfection where you have a wizard that drives you to find your wily. Boring perfection. The marvel is in diversity, in unforeseeable events, in NOT knowing what's next. In the journey.
Mind if I steal this excuse for next time someone asks me why my GUI's are terribad?
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Just fix it.
Ah, so you're mid-level management. Figures. 
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:19:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 19/03/2010 13:20:53
Originally by: Paknac Queltel
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Just fix it.
Ah, so you're mid-level management. Figures.
at least I'm honest I dont give a **** how eve ticks internally... I am a customer after all. All I can tell from my perspective is that such a thing is not a big business usually and even more not unrealizable at all as many parrots try to tell me.
Many people in this thread remind me of a bunch of nerds standing in front of a machine and quarrel about its abilities and how its probably working.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:49:00 -
[68]
Or they could just improve on the science and industry interface so that essential actions like moving the blueprints was possible, making it a viable workaround instead of a useless window.
Of course since any action on the science window results in a full scale query that might take several minutes, its usually faster to just look through 100 identical blueprints anyway.
Want to invent 'refresh' button, 'move_to' button, useful filter options.
Or have the default hangar show just blueprints by default but provide a show 'bluerint details' button for those that actually need them, wouldn't cause more lag than opening each blueprint individually anyway.
There's no lack of useful workarounds.
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Paknac Queltel
Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:50:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 19/03/2010 13:20:53
Originally by: Paknac Queltel
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Just fix it.
Ah, so you're mid-level management. Figures.
at least I'm honest I dont give a **** how eve ticks internally... I am a customer after all. All I can tell from my perspective is that such a thing is not a big business usually and even more not unrealizable at all as many parrots try to tell me.
Many people in this thread remind me of a bunch of nerds standing in front of a machine and quarrel about its abilities and how its probably working.
Sure, it can be done. It's simply unwise to do so, for so little gain.
While risking being called a parrot, let me explain again: The BPO is always the first or last of the sorted list of items. That's only two item detail pages you need to check, max. Most often, though, you don't even need to check for it, if you separated your blueprints properly. However, the check whether it's a BPC or not would still need to be done, every time anyone loads a container, anywhere. It's a heavy cost compared to the tiny benefit.
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cough cough
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:01:00 -
[70]
Edited by: cough cough on 19/03/2010 14:09:17
Let me give you a ***** clue for good...
On the science & industry window: Right click on your desired BPO, deliver to, corp hangar, BPO division or whatever you call that division.
Next time, please use your brain before you start crying about missing features.
Edit: of course this only work if you have your own corp / have BP access rights on your corp. Wich should be a requirement if you have such a huge number os BPOs an BPCs
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:31:00 -
[71]
Originally by: cough cough
Edited by: cough cough on 19/03/2010 14:09:17
Let me give you a ***** clue for good...
On the science & industry window: Right click on your desired BPO, deliver to, corp hangar, BPO division or whatever you call that division.
Next time, please use your brain before you start crying about missing features.
Edit: of course this only work if you have your own corp / have BP access rights on your corp. Wich should be a requirement if you have such a huge number os BPOs an BPCs
Of course none of those features work in a POS that is the only practical place to do research anyway, just having a way to open a container inside a hangar would be awesome. Because then unusued blueprints could be put inside for safekeeping. Or simply letting us define more hangars than the global one-size fits all divisions of hangars across the known and unknown universe.
There are tons of little changes that could make science and industry tolerable, but the only excuse seems to be that changing the database structure isnt viable.
And if someone is going to tell me to solve UI bugs, by moving all POS'es to hi-sec and setup offices there, I am going to literally explode. Its ridiculous the amount of workarounds players go through, to fix IU issues that are trivial to improve upon.
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ChrisIsherwood
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:34:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
The game is harsh and badly usable for the same reason it won't accept external LUA player made add ins nor will implement autoloot and similar.
Now, use your graduation to find out the banal reason why it's like that and why it's better it stays like that than not.
I think you explained it very well 3 posts ago: they made some poor choices in the past (LOLMSQLServer) as well as having a bad, ancient codebase that they are trying to make minimal changes to. Which is sort of depressing for the future of EVE; oh well, no game is for ever. Now that you mention it, CCP's last two corporate acquisitions have been for console gaming which allows them to avoid having to make these and other changes to the legacy code in EVE.
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Susurrous
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Posted - 2010.03.19 15:17:00 -
[73]
1. When I go to Science & Industry -> Corp Blueprints, I see a list of hundreds of corp blueprints, all with a tag COPY stating YES or NO. Clearly this tag is immediately available without any major overhaul.
2. What it sounds like is the primary problem is that CCP can't at the moment have two different itemtypes produce the same item without a major overhaul. Is there, however, a reason why we couldn't have two different graphics on the same itemtype, based on that flag? e.g., overlay BPC onto the blueprint icon if it's a copy, or put a number with the runs remaining on it.
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Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.19 15:18:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
I graduated in computer science and databases are my daily business, so please stfu teaching me stuff I'm messing aroung for years!
I'm going to stop you here.
No matter how smart you think you are or how good you are, CCP are smarter and know more.
I'm normally one of the first people to slag CCP when it's justified, but their DBAs know their stuff.
CCP's database structure is nearly enough unique in the world and when companies have problems to solve or new database hardware to test CCP is one of the few companies in the world that they go to in order to do this.
Let me repeat - you are wrong and CCP are right.
Now leave the keyboard alone - your posts are just a fountain of fail.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.03.19 15:31:00 -
[75]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 19/03/2010 15:35:51
Originally by: Susurrous
1. When I go to Science & Industry -> Corp Blueprints, I see a list of hundreds of corp blueprints, all with a tag COPY stating YES or NO. Clearly this tag is immediately available without any major overhaul.
2. What it sounds like is the primary problem is that CCP can't at the moment have two different itemtypes produce the same item without a major overhaul. Is there, however, a reason why we couldn't have two different graphics on the same itemtype, based on that flag? e.g., overlay BPC onto the blueprint icon if it's a copy, or put a number with the runs remaining on it.
Yes - because it would require an additional join. That information does not exist in the table(s) responsible for managing inventory, nor in the table(s) for managing the base item type - it only exists in a table that stores certain specific information about specific instances of an item. That table is not referenced when you open your hangar (or a container). So, to get that information, a join to that table would be required. Every time EVERY player opened their hangar, it would be calling the specific instance information of EVERY item contained within.
So, in conclusion:
1. They can't (won't) make a separate itemtype because of that previously mentioned builtby constraint (assuming that's true).
2. They won't link to the item instance information for just looking in a container because it would represent a substantial performance hit due to the inclusion of at least one additional join and the metric asston of information that would come with it.
There almost certainly IS a way to do it that wouldn't be terribly detrimental, however. It might be a little bit "hackish", but as other people have pointed out, when sorted the BPOs are always either first or last, which means there is probably some tiny piece of information in there that somehow differentiates them. It is probably not something that most right-minded designers would use for such a purpose, but...
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Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.03.19 15:36:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Susurrous
1. When I go to Science & Industry -> Corp Blueprints, I see a list of hundreds of corp blueprints, all with a tag COPY stating YES or NO. Clearly this tag is immediately available without any major overhaul.
2. What it sounds like is the primary problem is that CCP can't at the moment have two different itemtypes produce the same item without a major overhaul. Is there, however, a reason why we couldn't have two different graphics on the same itemtype, based on that flag? e.g., overlay BPC onto the blueprint icon if it's a copy, or put a number with the runs remaining on it.
The result from the science and industry window is probably an advanced query taking up quite a bit of server time, while the result from a normal hangar is much simpler.
So the yes/no tag is not immediately available. The main issue is not to show the graphic, but for the client to know what kind of graphic to show.
Since people as a whole probably open many more hangar windows, than they open science and industry windows, it makes sense to make a simpler query for the hangars.
However giving us the use to customize queries to some extent, and decide how to organize and sort items, could reduce the limitations a lot. And possible even be lighter on server load. I see no reason why the game needs to make a new database query just because I choose to sort the items on a different attribute, it might as well be cached client side as long as the data didn't change.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.19 15:53:00 -
[77]
Quote:
Many people in this thread remind me of a bunch of nerds standing in front of a machine and quarrel about its abilities and how its probably working.
Apply to the whole game, and you are getting the grasp about EvE is about
Quote:
Of course none of those features work in a POS that is the only practical place to do research anyway,
Do you realize that anyone will locate your POS and come attack it ASAP now?
Quote:
for console gaming which allows them to avoid having to make these and other changes to the legacy code in EVE.
That's quite sad indeed, but that's how software was made in the early days and there's no way back.
Furthermore, EvE is not one of those games with limited lifespan where you can expect a "version 2" in few years that will bring in a complete re-engineering.
Quote:
There almost certainly IS a way to do it that wouldn't be terribly detrimental, however. It might be a little bit "hackish", but as other people have pointed out, when sorted the BPOs are always either first or last, which means there is probably some tiny piece of information in there that somehow differentiates them.
If I can toss some garbage guesstimate, the BPO unique IDs have a lower value than the BPCs derived from them or they just appear in the physical database table before the BPCs (existing before they were created). Thus, when sorting the items, the criteria are applied to other properties like name etc and the creation ID just permeates and "survives" the sort so that the BPO ends up top in the sort sub-category.
To see if this is true or false, you have to buy 1 BPO, make 1-2 BPCs, then buy another of the same BPO and sort them. If the second BPO appears after the BPCs, then the physical creation order or the unique IDs are playing a role.
Quote:
I see no reason why the game needs to make a new database query just because I choose to sort the items on a different attribute, it might as well be cached client side as long as the data didn't change
Many operations are cached. Others must be flushed anyway at every warp, and that includes inventories / slots / jobs etc.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:14:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Do you realize that anyone will locate your POS and come attack it ASAP now?
Sounds like fun, can't wait. :P
On the matter of database queries, it does not make sense to repeat the same query every time a minor change in the user interface happens, which is the case in the science and industry window. This is much more evident when a query takes several minutes to complete.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:47:00 -
[79]
The common times I see such a query redone are when you warp in a new system. In that case the stuff needs recalculation. If you know of other cases... petition CCP, they love to remove uneeded database load on their servers.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2010.03.19 18:02:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Celia Therone
Client side cache blueprint id's and bpo status in a hash table?
How many seconds before someone find how to change that T2 BPC to: 10.000 runs ME +1.000 PE +1.000?
It is the same reason why all our stuff is listed on the server side: too easy to cheat otherwise.
A client side cache would only effect the display of BPO/BPC (e.g. showing the bpo as green and the bpc as blue or adding an 'o' to the top right corner for bpos). The server side logic for using them would remain identical. Things like runs and ME probably wouldn't even be part of the cache to avoid client/server de-synch as much as possible.
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.19 19:25:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 17/03/2010 17:22:40
I'm getting mad every time I have to sort the fuggin BPO out of a bunch of BPC in hangars and POS divisions!!!! 
I dont care about technical backgrounds and explanations why things are broken currently, if you did it wrong, then simply fix it!
Then why did you get them mixed in first place? It does ask when you copy the damn blueprint where you want copy to go to.
As far as i have read how database at ccp works, its not really broken. Its just not impelemented becouse server load. Yes try imagine Microsoft SQL database handle even 5-10% more load. We even currently manage to get it all jammed up.
What my alt corp does is, keep originals in one corp hanger, copies in another (where they are put immediatle after retrieved from lab site).
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.03.19 20:51:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 19/03/2010 20:52:06
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Of course none of those features work in a POS that is the only practical place to do research anyway,
oh, wondered what he's talking about. Oh my..
Originally by: Susurrous
1. When I go to Science & Industry -> Corp Blueprints, I see a list of hundreds of corp blueprints, all with a tag COPY stating YES or NO. Clearly this tag is immediately available without any major overhaul.
read the whole thread. It has been mentioned several times but S&I is useless for the main issue entirely
Originally by: Tallaran Kouros
I'm going to stop you here.
No matter how smart you think you are or how good you are, CCP are smarter and know more.
another CCP's advocate?? f*ck off
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Yes - because it would require an additional join.
one of how many thousands? so what? Do it... joining indexed tables is not that an issue actually. Or if you dont like joins for particular reasons, you introduce an redundant attribute, a common approach to mitigate consequences of heavily normalized schemas.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Do you realize that anyone will locate your POS and come attack it ASAP now?
you're kidding, arent you? POS is the easiest and actually the only practical way to research/invent.
Originally by: Dasola
Then why did you get them mixed in first place? It does ask when you copy the damn blueprint where you want copy to go to.
by accident *rolling eyes*
Its not the question WHY either...
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:08:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Yes - because it would require an additional join.
one of how many thousands? so what? Do it... joining indexed tables is not that an issue actually. Or if you dont like joins for particular reasons, you introduce an redundant attribute, a common approach to mitigate consequences of heavily normalized schemas.
Lolwut? I sincerely doubt the query that's called for getting the inventory of anything in Eve involves more than a handful of joins. Certainly not thousands, or even hundreds, probably not even tens.
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Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Darkaene
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Posted - 2010.03.19 23:40:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tellenta
I fear the repercussions if CCP decides to try fixing some old code like that, jump gates won't work, guns won't fire, dogs and cats living together, MASS HYSTERIA!!!
Yes it's true. The OP has no *****.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.19 23:48:00 -
[85]
Quote:
you're kidding, arent you? POS is the easiest and actually the only practical way to research/invent.
YOU are kidding, aren't you? The person admits using BPOs at a POS >_<
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.03.20 10:06:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
YOU are kidding, aren't you? The person admits using BPOs at a POS >_<
so what should happen in a high sec pos?
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Lolwut? I sincerely doubt the query that's called for getting the inventory of anything in Eve involves more than a handful of joins. Certainly not thousands, or even hundreds, probably not even tens.
I meant overall joins in eve.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.03.20 12:25:00 -
[87]
It seems this is a very controversial issue, some players' game experience will obviously be affected adversely by better user interface.
Since Eve is a game of making workarounds when faced with user-unfriendly interface elements, the balance issues are so severe that having ancient and outdated dialogs, is an essential feature of the game.
Just look at the LP store, if that was streamlined macro missioners would rule the Eve world, now they are forced to buy the crappy implants at the start of the list.
For the same reason improving UI elements related to science and industry is out of the question, industrialists are of course carebears anyway who should burn in hell.
/me Heads back to 'show info' on 200 BPCs...
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Ishikari
Gallente
Duct Tape Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.20 14:26:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/03/2010 18:03:16
Originally by: Sir Bonkers
I am at work atm, but I believe there is a drop down menu at the top of the window. Should have options; "Show all Blueprints", "Show Only Originals", "Show only Copies". That is from memory, so do not take it as 100% fact. 
yeah you're right but this does not help since there is no option to move the prints across divisions or see in which division they exactly are.
the use of Science&Industry is of very limited use in this concern.
hmm, try right clicking your print, it gives you the option of delivering to a different division or player.. been there for years.
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Tyranus vonCarstein
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.20 21:46:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Joe SMASH
Originally by: Robert Caldera
bull****!
Stop quoting bull****!
A simple flag cant be that hard to realize, the information is behind the BPC anyways if you look into item info.
STOP QUOTING BULLSH*T A CLUELESS DEV SAID ONCE!!
Originally by: Jokiller Gerius
A good workaround ...
I dont want pesky workarounds, I want a FIX!
Oooo... You must be one of those, 'If you do not agree with me, you are wrong' type of people....
 /thread
You may all stop posting now.
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ZeeOhSix
Blackwater Manufacturing and Logistics
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Posted - 2010.03.20 22:48:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: ZeeOhSix
Goodness, but you're confused regarding the benefits of nomalization for high-transaction databases 
says who?
go trolling somewhere else if you have no clue
Says a 25 year DBA that's designed more high-transaction, large-scale databases than you've had zits - and that's saying something. You noted you were a DBA - what's your experience in designing large-scale transactional databases? Just name one.
The troll, sir, is you claiming something is "simple" and making consistent mis-statements about how databases actually work. I suggest you go back to your Microsoft Access playtime and leave real database work to professionals 
The business of EVE is business!
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