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A concern with Flag Ships

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DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.18 13:41:00 - [1] Well tbh Im not sure if anyone in this game has more experience with flying faction / officer Battleships. So if that means anything I hope you'll heed my concern about them in a controlled environment. 1) Your rule about only having 1 booster be it shield or armor is a farce if you are seriously thinking active shield tanking and active armor tanking are the same. You need 2 armor reps to come even close to a single shield boosters, and even then the shield booster out performs. 2) Passive shield tanked Rattlesnake. Nuets cant break its tank, cause its passive duh! A rattlesnake can achieve a passive tank that most fielded teams cannot break even at full strength. (Faction / officer fit of course) 3) Unique ships such as the Raven State Issue or Tribal Tempests offer some impressive dps, that all but maybe two teams will never have access to. (But tbh this one isnt too big a concern for me) 4) Faction / Officer Set-ups allow for a spider tank capability if the team chooses just to not lose. This can be done with some very strong passive tanks such as the rattlesnake fit to pass shield back to his buddies feeding him cap. These ships are capable of set-ups I think you are overlooking and the aw crap I cant kill it factor this is boring and sucks, will overcome your ideals of hey I got a great idea, lets excite the tourney with faction battleships! This will probably be a "careful what you wish for" scenario. WildCat
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.03.18 14:08:00 - [2] Edited by: TeaDaze on 18/03/2010 14:08:44 Originally by: DHB WildCat Well tbh Im not sure if anyone in this game has more experience with flying faction / officer Battleships. So if that means anything I hope you'll heed my concern about them in a controlled environment. 1) Your rule about only having 1 booster be it shield or armor is a farce if you are seriously thinking active shield tanking and active armor tanking are the same. You need 2 armor reps to come even close to a single shield boosters, and even then the shield booster out performs. Claw has said they are looking at this. Originally by: DHB WildCat 2) Passive shield tanked Rattlesnake. Nuets cant break its tank, cause its passive duh! A rattlesnake can achieve a passive tank that most fielded teams cannot break even at full strength. (Faction / officer fit of course) Officer / Faction resists are not allowed, so the passive shield tank would have to be T2 and thus no better or worse than anyone can field with a "standard" rattler. Originally by: DHB WildCat 4) Faction / Officer Set-ups allow for a spider tank capability if the team chooses just to not lose. This can be done with some very strong passive tanks such as the rattlesnake fit to pass shield back to his buddies feeding him cap. Flagships can't fit remote reps. They can fit remote cap transfer as can any other ship that wants to. Originally by: DHB WildCat These ships are capable of set-ups I think you are overlooking and the aw crap I cant kill it factor this is boring and sucks, will overcome your ideals of hey I got a great idea, lets excite the tourney with faction battleships! This will probably be a "careful what you wish for" scenario. WildCat They will tank harder than a normal T2 tank, but without the faction hardeners they won't be unkillable with the limited DPS on the field. I look forward to what you and others will field
DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.18 14:23:00 - [3] Edited by: DHB WildCat on 18/03/2010 14:23:12 BTW a passive rattler (t2) with vulture command ship and implants tanks 3k dps on its own with out logistic support. With logistic support its a bit more, just saying that it might be time for ccp to take a look at overall passive tanking and bring it back into line a little 8P. Okay tangent over lol WildCat
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.03.18 15:46:00 - [4] Edited by: Naomi Wildfire on 18/03/2010 15:55:50 removed, was already brought up somewhere else
Cheekything Gallente Dark-Rising	Posted - 2010.03.18 16:27:00 - [5] Originally by: TeaDaze Originally by: DHB WildCat 2) Passive shield tanked Rattlesnake. Nuets cant break its tank, cause its passive duh! A rattlesnake can achieve a passive tank that most fielded teams cannot break even at full strength. (Faction / officer fit of course) Officer / Faction resists are not allowed, so the passive shield tank would have to be T2 and thus no better or worse than anyone can field with a "standard" rattler.] When did they change that? Quote: Flagships are able to fit faction, officer, cosmos, and deadspace versions of the following modules, ignoring tournament rules to the contrary: I read nothing about this in the rules and it would be a shame to remove them just because the rattlesnake, if that's the case just ban it and the navy scorp. It'd be tragic if people had to half officer/faction fit their flagship.
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.03.18 17:57:00 - [6] Originally by: Cheekything It's a shame that CCP wont allow them just because the rattlesnake, if that's the case just ban it and the navy scorp. It'd be tragic if people had to half officer/faction fit their flagship. I'm now suddenly less excited fully faction fit flag ships would be interesting but high slots, reps, damage mods and EWAR ...... nah i'm ok that's just boring Allowing flagships to field a full faction tank would lead to dull flagship vs flagship battles. Allowing limited faction tanks along with full faction/officer weapons, ewar and damage mods means more frontloaded damage with only a limited increase in tank. I'm interested to see what people will field (though AT8 as a whole is slightly less interesting to me than AT7 was ).
Cheekything Gallente Dark-Rising	Posted - 2010.03.18 19:16:00 - [7] Edited by: Cheekything on 18/03/2010 19:25:31 Originally by: TeaDaze Allowing flagships to field a full faction tank would lead to dull flagship vs flagship battles. So would a drake on drake fight.... which is more likely to happen. Originally by: TeaDaze Allowing limited faction tanks along with full faction/officer weapons, ewar and damage mods means more frontloaded damage with only a limited increase in tank. I'm interested to see what people will field (though AT8 as a whole is slightly less interesting to me than AT7 was ). It'll be just as boring, people with any sense will not field a half faction fit ship which is publicly posted, simply because it's not impressive and yes you might get 100 extra dps using 3 Cormack's mag stabs on a Vindicator instead of 3 T2 mag stabs.... Anyone with sense will not be having a flag ship at all. The only reason you do so is to show off how "cool" you are as you have a CNR with a complete Estamel's fit or a Rattlesnake that can Tank over 9000 dps with it's passive tank or a Vindicator that can out DPS a titan. People have these ships and will never use them for anything more than missioning or station spinning why not lure them out for fame and glory?
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:46:00 - [8] We really need the option to use non-BS flagships because battleships suck.
Larkonis Trassler Genos Occidere Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.19 20:34:00 - [9] In order to get such a ridiculous tank out of a Rattler/Navy Scorp you're going to have to sacrifice ALL your slots for tank which means pitiful damage and no extra resistance to EWAR. Non issue really. If you want to waste the slot on an immobile brick while the opposition flits around you killing your other doodz and then happily locking you down while you show off your leet passive tank while ineffectually flinging FOF cruise missiles like a toddler throwing it's poo around then be my guest.
Cheekything Gallente Dark-Rising	Posted - 2010.03.20 01:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler In order to get such a ridiculous tank out of a Rattler/Navy Scorp you're going to have to sacrifice ALL your slots for tank which means pitiful damage and no extra resistance to EWAR. Non issue really. If you want to waste the slot on an immobile brick while the opposition flits around you killing your other doodz and then happily locking you down while you show off your leet passive tank while ineffectually flinging FOF cruise missiles like a toddler throwing it's poo around then be my guest. Not true at all you still have about 750 dps with a rattlesnake with fof and drones (assuming you'll be ewared to death), the navy scorp is less due to lack of a drone bonus.

Larkonis Trassler Genos Occidere Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.03.20 02:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Cheekything Originally by: Larkonis Trassler In order to get such a ridiculous tank out of a Rattler/Navy Scorp you're going to have to sacrifice ALL your slots for tank which means pitiful damage and no extra resistance to EWAR. Non issue really. If you want to waste the slot on an immobile brick while the opposition flits around you killing your other doodz and then happily locking you down while you show off your leet passive tank while ineffectually flinging FOF cruise missiles like a toddler throwing it's poo around then be my guest. Not true at all you still have about 750 dps with a rattlesnake with fof and drones (assuming you'll be ewared to death), the navy scorp is less due to lack of a drone bonus. Cool. 750 randomly applied/destructable DPS and 0 other contribution to the fight. Instead of theorycrafting something that only has a place in an SPR Drake pilot's wildest wet dream you should probably look at the other options and how much better they are.
Huan CK Gallente GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.03.20 06:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Cheekything Originally by: Larkonis Trassler In order to get such a ridiculous tank out of a Rattler/Navy Scorp you're going to have to sacrifice ALL your slots for tank which means pitiful damage and no extra resistance to EWAR. Non issue really. If you want to waste the slot on an immobile brick while the opposition flits around you killing your other doodz and then happily locking you down while you show off your leet passive tank while ineffectually flinging FOF cruise missiles like a toddler throwing it's poo around then be my guest. Not true at all you still have about 750 dps with a rattlesnake with fof and drones (assuming you'll be ewared to death), the navy scorp is less due to lack of a drone bonus. See your fof's being kitet by a frig, and your drones killed by smartbombs. 0 dps, 0 addition to the fight, and just waiting to die as the last ship on the field ;) I really really really hope someone brings a passive-tanked Rattlesnake to the fight, no wait, make this two! Will be fun to see that team get obliterated by skilled pvp-ers :) Also, I agree with Shamis, would be more fun if you'd be allowed to make non-bs flagships.
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.03.20 13:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Huan CK Also, I agree with Shamis, would be more fun if you'd be allowed to make non-bs flagships. You can, it just has to be a) allowed in the tournie and b) T1 In reality I doubt anyone would want to bring (for example) a hauler flagship but in theory it is allowed
DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.03.20 15:31:00 - [14] Originally by: TeaDaze Originally by: Huan CK Also, I agree with Shamis, would be more fun if you'd be allowed to make non-bs flagships. You can, it just has to be a) allowed in the tournie and b) T1 In reality I doubt anyone would want to bring (for example) a hauler flagship but in theory it is allowed 1. Any standard T1 or Faction battleship hull may be designated as a flagship. (Per Flagship Ruling) I read this as any T1 battleship or faction battleship... not any t1 ship or faction battleship. But then again maybe Im wrong? WildCat
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.20 16:18:00 - [15] Originally by: TeaDaze Originally by: Huan CK Also, I agree with Shamis, would be more fun if you'd be allowed to make non-bs flagships. You can, it just has to be a) allowed in the tournie and b) T1 In reality I doubt anyone would want to bring (for example) a hauler flagship but in theory it is allowed You sir are both dumb and wrong.
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.03.20 18:01:00 - [16] Edited by: TeaDaze on 20/03/2010 18:03:11 Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk You sir are both dumb and wrong. Confirming I fail. That's what I get for replying without re-reading the rules first There goes Agony's rifter flagship idea
Darknesss D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.03.23 21:01:00 - [17] Unless I read it wrong I think the flagship rules are pretty heavily biased towards shield. One faction/officer/cosmos rep doesn't come close to a faction/officer/cosmos shield booster. 2 reps quite often dont even match up to one shield booster, perhaps allowing dual armor reps for armor tank and one shield booster for shield?
Arcane Azmadi Caldari First Flying Wing Inc Primary.	Posted - 2010.04.07 04:45:00 - [18] I think the whole 'flagships' rule set will only be justified if someone fields a State Raven/Tribal Tempest/Imperial Apocalypse/Federate Megathron as their flagship. Rule of Cool and all that.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.12 19:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Arcane Azmadi I think the whole 'flagships' rule set will only be justified if someone fields a State Raven/Tribal Tempest/Imperial Apocalypse/Federate Megathron as their flagship. Rule of Cool and all that. It's been done. It went boom in the AT3 semifinal, if I recall.
triplleboy Caldari The Inevitable Corp	Posted - 2010.04.23 13:09:00 - [20] that's was fun yeah

ddemec SoT	Posted - 2010.04.28 19:51:00 - [21] Edited by: ddemec on 28/04/2010 19:54:27 One more question. Faction-deadspace hardeners/invuls allowed? or only high slots/electronic warfare/damage mods/reps _____________________________ Soldiers of Thunderstorm
TeaDaze Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2010.04.28 21:31:00 - [22] Originally by: ddemec Edited by: ddemec on 28/04/2010 19:54:27 One more question. Faction-deadspace hardeners/invuls allowed? or only high slots/electronic warfare/damage mods/reps No faction hardeners. From the rules page Quote: 2. Flagships are able to fit faction, officer, cosmos, and deadspace versions of the following modules, ignoring tournament rules to the contrary: All Highslot Modules (not including remote armour repair modules, remote shield transfer modules, or cloaking devices) Electronic Warfare Modules Weapon Upgrade Modules ONE Shield Booster or up to TWO Armour Repairers Hope that clears it up. Vote TeaDaze for CSM5!


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