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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:25:00 -
[1]
Was reading a comment made by Bellum Eternus that got me thinking (I know... Dangerous stuff :P):
 Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Greed is *the* prime motivator when it comes to carebears. They will *always* go where the money is, if there's enough of it.
But why is it so difficult for him, and other cool PVP kiddies like him, to realize that he is just as greedy as the carebears he loathes? That is, we're all driven by something in the game. Basically, some play to fatten up an imaginary wallet in the form of iskies and others, like him, fatten up a killboard, also imaginary. Why is his form of greed OK while the other forms aren't? I just don't get why some players are just so locked in the belief that their style of play is the 'right way' and anything else is 'you're doing it wrong'.
I've met players that play to collect ships. Others play to collect isk. Others play to collect frozen bodies. Lots play to collect killmails/fatten up a killboard. But why is it that players like Mr. Bellum think the rest are driven by greed while he isn't? And it isn't just him. Le Skunk (another carebear lover :P), all the while gatecamping and racking up kills 23/7 professes the same rhetoric  . It seems very hypocritical to me. But perhaps I'm missing something. And I'm hoping someone could make this distinction clearer to me. Why is hoarding isk (internet pixels) greedy but hoarding killmails (also internet pixels) isn't?
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Cailais
Amarr
Diablo Advocatus
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:31:00 -
[2]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Was reading a comment made by Bellum Eternus that got me thinking....
Pretty much found the flaw in your logic there buddy.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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Armoured C
Gallente
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:40:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Was reading a comment made by Bellum Eternus that got me thinking....
Pretty much found the flaw in your logic there buddy.
C.
rofls
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Anslo
The Aduro Protocol
Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.19 14:42:00 -
[4]
No one takes Bellum seriously, least of all us carebears. He's mad he can't kill the ones not stupid enough to go his way and give him easy kills 
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Oscardoodle
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:09:00 -
[5]
Oh hell not you again.
I apologize for having one of those sigs...Sorry.
I've just killed two parrots with one stone. Shadow. |
The Crushah
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:59:00 -
[6]
Bellum is a kind and gentle lover, and enjoys being the little spoon.
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Was reading a comment made by Bellum Eternus that got me thinking (I know... Dangerous stuff :P):
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Greed is *the* prime motivator when it comes to carebears. They will *always* go where the money is, if there's enough of it.
But why is it so difficult for him, and other cool PVP kiddies like him, to realize that he is just as greedy as the carebears he loathes? That is, we're all driven by something in the game. Basically, some play to fatten up an imaginary wallet in the form of iskies and others, like him, fatten up a killboard, also imaginary. Why is his form of greed OK while the other forms aren't? I just don't get why some players are just so locked in the belief that their style of play is the 'right way' and anything else is 'you're doing it wrong'.
I've met players that play to collect ships. Others play to collect isk. Others play to collect frozen bodies. Lots play to collect killmails/fatten up a killboard. But why is it that players like Mr. Bellum think the rest are driven by greed while he isn't? And it isn't just him. Le Skunk (another carebear lover :P), all the while gatecamping and racking up kills 23/7 professes the same rhetoric . It seems very hypocritical to me. But perhaps I'm missing something. And I'm hoping someone could make this distinction clearer to me. Why is hoarding isk (internet pixels) greedy but hoarding killmails (also internet pixels) isn't?
No, not greedy as in hoarding killmails, but greedy as in not being willing to risk anything but a fully insured cheaply fitted ship. The people he calls carebears are actually less carebear than he is. See, a faction fitted marauder is a huge loss, if it's lost. A t1 ship with t2 modules is barely even a dent in the wallet of any player that is able to do lvl4 missions.
So in fact, Bellum is the true carebear, not the people flying around in faction fitted marauders. The fact that they don't leave highsec doesn't mean that they aren't taking any risks. As soon as you undock in eve there is the risk of loosing your ship, staying in highsec is merely minimizing that risk.
If you're flying something that costs you nothing to replace, then you aren't risking anything at all, regardless of where you're flying it.
And before you ask, the true definition of a carebear is a person that's not willing to take any risks.
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Odium Devotus
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Posted - 2010.03.19 20:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Fille Balle
wall of text that i agree with
Dictor pilots in null are the least bear of any pod pilot imo. |
Last Wolf
Rage For Order
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Posted - 2010.03.19 20:39:00 -
[9]
I don't think anyone takes Bellum seriously.
He'll never stop whining until his megathron can fit 8 blasters that fire doomsdays and insta heal his ship at the same time.
Even then He'll complain that they don't have enough range 
Oh no you don't!
Incoming witty reply, ETA: 300 seconds! |
lookatzebirdie
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:12:00 -
[10]
Regardless of the origin of the quote and ur opinion of him there is some truth to his opinion and still some truth to yours. It is true that carebears are generally motivated by greed (read capitalism) and some pvpers are motivated by the collection of killmails. I agree that the collection of killmails you describe is greed since the large majority of them will be cheap worthless ganks and zero damage w****mails to make said pvpers feel "1337", but here's the rub.
Some pvpers fight against the odds, outnumbered, outmatched. They take risks and lose many ships seeking the "good fight". They don't blob and consider kills obtained in such a fashion to be quite worthless. I honestly don't know if there is a realistic comparison within the carebear community.. if there is I'd like to know about it (sincerely).
The Irony is that, many, many pvpers are of the ilk you describe and are even more worthy of derision than the isk grabbing bears they so readily criticize not least because of their hypocrisy. They are just as risk averse, greedy and "change ze game to make it easy for me plz CCP" as anyone else.
I guess Chribba is one who would fall into the same category for the carebear community, if there are others then good luck to you 
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:18:00 -
[11]
What's wrong with greed? What would be the point of playing Eve if you didn't always want more and better of whatever it is you choose to compete for in the game?
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'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.' |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Zartrader on 19/03/2010 21:24:38
It's in some people's nature that they need to identify with a group of players or style of play. This is why you get rabid football fans, single agenda political parties and religion. It's a desperate need to belong and the fear of anything that does not comply with your mindset which really upsets some people. Logical thought and reason, the ability to see other's points of view as well as a sense of proportion is not something these people have.
In other words they are best ignored as any comments will be tainted by so much bias as to be worthless. They are speaking with only one agenda in mind.
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Perrigrene
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Posted - 2010.03.19 22:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: lookatzebirdie
Regardless of the origin of the quote and ur opinion of him there is some truth to his opinion and still some truth to yours. It is true that carebears are generally motivated by greed (read capitalism) and some pvpers are motivated by the collection of killmails. I agree that the collection of killmails you describe is greed since the large majority of them will be cheap worthless ganks and zero damage w****mails to make said pvpers feel "1337", but here's the rub.
Some pvpers fight against the odds, outnumbered, outmatched. They take risks and lose many ships seeking the "good fight". They don't blob and consider kills obtained in such a fashion to be quite worthless. I honestly don't know if there is a realistic comparison within the carebear community.. if there is I'd like to know about it (sincerely).
The Irony is that, many, many pvpers are of the ilk you describe and are even more worthy of derision than the isk grabbing bears they so readily criticize not least because of their hypocrisy. They are just as risk averse, greedy and "change ze game to make it easy for me plz CCP" as anyone else.
I guess Chribba is one who would fall into the same category for the carebear community, if there are others then good luck to you
Chribba, and Boris Hotch are the most notable that come to my mind but there are plenty of other carebears that aren't capitalistic greedy pigs, some just seek to make isk as a means to their end, flying many ships or building many things. The lowlife 'bears' you'd compare with the pvp'ers who seek to pad their killmails with noobs and other 'unworthy' targets or battles with clueless/unaware victims have their counter parts in uber price gouging, scamming, corp theft(no actual fight), etc people.
My feeling is that the lowlifes make up more of the PVP group than they do of the bears but that's just me your experiences may be different.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.19 22:58:00 -
[14]
Who says that Chribba does not have alts that he rawrs it up with or enjoys the 0.0 lifestyle?
To be honset this carbear stuff is a joke.
I would stick with the sole definiton as anyone who cries about something not going their way.
You could be the biggest mission running, non-pvp oriented pilot, but if you do not cry when you hauler with billions gets ganked and you do not go make a scene out of it, then you are not a carebear. But, if you consistanly can not get kills in low sec because you over fished the barrale and you cry about not having targets, then you are a carebear. It has nothing to do with play style and everything to do with attitude, period!
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.03.19 23:00:00 -
[15]
I guess Trolling wasn't a sin when Dante wrote the Divine.
And now we suffer the consequences...i blame Dante for this thread.
You can kill my ideas, remove my hopes and destroy my future. You'll never take my signature as long as i'm still alive. |
Wonmbak
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Posted - 2010.03.19 23:27:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Wonmbak on 19/03/2010 23:27:14
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
But perhaps I'm missing something. And I'm hoping someone could make this distinction clearer to me. Why is hoarding isk (internet pixels) greedy but hoarding killmails (also internet pixels) isn't?
My troll detector is going off the chart.
You can make hundreds of millions of ISK a day sitting in Jita not ever risking anything. If pirates were greedy, they spend their days owning you through the market like tons of carebears do it out there.
Power, not greed, is the main driving force behind piracy and pvp. Being at the top of a hierarchy within the game's social structure. For those of you carebears who have no idea what this means I'll spell it out in more plain terms: main driving force for pirates and pvpers is showing you who your daddy is.
Now most carebears have their share of wins and losses and don't fell like they are in mitch-the-***** position in the process. But a few, like MatrixSkye, over time develop some serous insecurities over it (why? who knows, may be one day he got had by that long big pirate machariel *shrug*). After all, a man secure of his in-game achievements would not be spending hours of his time posting troll threads in general discussion and whining in C&P.
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Nick Bete
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Posted - 2010.03.19 23:32:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Nick Bete on 19/03/2010 23:34:31
It's best to just ignore the bitter nonsense spewed by Bellum, LeSkunk, and the usual suspects who always appear when yet another of those tedious "carebears vs leet PVPers" threads appears. Anyone who's been reading the forums a while know their agenda and their opinions of anyone different from themselves (as I'm sure you do) and simply scroll past them.
My biggest wish for a future forum overhaul: a proper block function. It would save a lot of wear on my mouse's scroll wheel.... |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.19 23:35:00 -
[18]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 20/03/2010 01:09:13
Originally by: Wonmbak
Edited by: Wonmbak on 19/03/2010 23:27:14My troll detector is going off the chart.
You can make hundreds of millions of ISK a day sitting in Jita not ever risking anything. If pirates were greedy, they spend their days owning you through the market like tons of carebears do it out there.
Power, not greed, is the main driving force behind piracy and pvp. Being at the top of a hierarchy within the game's social structure. For those of you carebears who have no idea what this means I'll spell it out in more plain terms: main driving force for pirates and pvpers is showing you who your daddy is.
Now most carebears have their share of wins and losses and don't fell like they are in mitch-the-***** position in the process. But a few, like MatrixSkye, over time develop some serous insecurities over it (why? who knows, may be one day he got had by that long big pirate machariel *shrug*). After all, a man secure of his in-game achievements would not be spending hours of his time posting troll threads in general discussion and whining in C&P.
Post count = 1. You created a character just to reply to my post? I'm flattered  . You're either Bellum, Le Skunk, or one of their corpies :P.
Anyway, call it "power", "wanting to be my daddy", or whatever you want to call it. What makes that better than the so-called carebear greed? You get turned on by being "some guy's daddy" as you put it. And you don't find that even a little disturbing? But carebears being greedy is the big "no-no" for you? You don't find your thoughts even a bit hypocritical?
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2010.03.20 01:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wonmbak
My troll detector is going off the chart.
You can make hundreds of millions of ISK a day sitting in Jita not ever risking anything. If pirates were greedy, they spend their days owning you through the market like tons of carebears do it out there.
Power, not greed, is the main driving force behind piracy and pvp. Being at the top of a hierarchy within the game's social structure. For those of you carebears who have no idea what this means I'll spell it out in more plain terms: main driving force for pirates and pvpers is showing you who your daddy is.
Now most carebears have their share of wins and losses and don't fell like they are in mitch-the-***** position in the process. But a few, like MatrixSkye, over time develop some serous insecurities over it (why? who knows, may be one day he got had by that long big pirate machariel *shrug*). After all, a man secure of his in-game achievements would not be spending hours of his time posting troll threads in general discussion and whining in C&P.
So, what you're saying is that power mongering is not driven by greed? And social status whoring is also not driven by greed?
Can you say megalomaniac? Sounds like greed to me...
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Wonmbak
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Posted - 2010.03.20 01:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Post count = 1. You created a character just to reply to my post? I'm flattered . You're either Bellum, Le Skunk, or one of their corpies :P.
I went ahead and created this character a few days ago because my crystal ball told me that very soon Mk2 will be posting a new troll thread is general discussion. I anticipated that you'll go digging through my posting history and I wanted to hide that fact that I am big bad pirate that molests children and old people irl because that would just totally debunk my claims to superiority
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Anyway, call it "power", "wanting to be my daddy", or whatever you want to call it. What makes that better than greed? You get turned on by being "some guy's daddy" as you put it. And you don't find that disturbing?
Erm, vying for power or money is perfectly natural. Just unplug yourself from your computer and go see what's happening in real world around you.
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
But carebears being greedy is the big "no-no" for you? You don't find your thoughts even a bit hypocritical?
The more ISK carebears make, the better loot they drop and the higher ransoms they pay. It is not hypocritical, it is damn straight foolish. Pirates telling carebears it is a "no-no" to make ISK are like lions telling the zebras that they cannot graze and become fatter off the grass before the pride goes hunting for them.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.20 01:22:00 -
[21]
Wonmbak,
I'm not arguing whether carebears should go "graze" or whatever tangent it is you went off on. That's not even the point of this thread.
My point is why the disdain and looking down at carebears for supposedly being "greedy" when those spewing this crap (ie, the Bellums and Le Skunks) are just as greedy, albeit not for isk, but for other imaginary things. Hell, you've proven my point, if anything. You admit you're after your own glory (in the form of power). But the way Bellum/Le Skunk talk about carebears is as if they're talking about themselves.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Wonmbak
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Posted - 2010.03.20 01:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Fille Balle
So, what you're saying is that power mongering is not driven by greed? And social status whoring is also not driven by greed?
Can you say megalomaniac? Sounds like greed to me...
Dictionary definition of greed:
"An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth"
Pirates, being a superior game-form, do in fact deserve everything that they get. Unlike carebears farming Motsu, Jita, Dodixie and a dozen other trading and mission running hubs, hoarding hundreds of billions of ISK that they will never ever spend in their gaming lifetime, game play of pirates is not propelled by greed to any such extent.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.20 01:32:00 -
[23]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 20/03/2010 01:39:05
Originally by: Wonmbak
Pirates, being a superior game-form, do in fact deserve everything that they get.
I've actually found pirates to be just like carebears in every way, if not worse. They whine as much. In Bellum's case actually more. But may I inquire as to why you feel they deserve whatever it is you think they deserve while carebears don't? Are you saying the isk they earn, say in the market, isn't worth it? Are you one of those that think combat PVP is TeH oNlY Reelz wAy?
Quote:
Unlike carebears farming Motsu, Jita, Dodixie and a dozen other trading and mission running hubs, hoarding hundreds of billions of ISK that they will never ever spend in their gaming lifetime
And so what if they never ever spend the isk they collect? What exactly is a pirate doing with his killboard? Jerking off to it? I don't get it. Pirates collect kills to what end? Why is that any better than collecting isk? You still haven't answered the question. Or in your words, why is imaginary in-game power superior to in-game money?
Quote:
game play of pirates is not propelled by greed to any such extent.
Actually, it is.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Gerrei
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Posted - 2010.03.20 01:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Wonmbak
Power, not greed, is the main driving force behind piracy and pvp. Being at the top of a hierarchy within the game's social structure. For those of you carebears who have no idea what this means I'll spell it out in more plain terms: main driving force for pirates and pvpers is showing you who your daddy is.
The ones that strive for power and the top of a hierarchy are never the ones that achieve it. They tend to be the ones at the bottom of gatecamp killmails. 6bil-Vindicator-guy on the other hand doesn't post about how he wants you to know who your daddy is.
Funny how that works.
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2010.03.20 01:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wonmbak
Dictionary definition of greed:
"An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth"
Pirates, being a superior game-form, do in fact deserve everything that they get. Unlike carebears farming Motsu, Jita, Dodixie and a dozen other trading and mission running hubs, hoarding hundreds of billions of ISK that they will never ever spend in their gaming lifetime, game play of pirates is not propelled by greed to any such extent.
I bolded the bit you seemed to have missed (hint: does not say it always is).
Oh, so it's okay to take that which others have spent hours to gain in a matter of minutes, that's not greedy. Especially when you only fly around in ships that don't cost you anything to loose. Yeah, piling other people's isk in a big pile = not greed. Piling isk which you've gained through hard work and determination in a big pile= greed. Gotcha
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.20 02:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Post count = 1. You created a character just to reply to my post? I'm flattered . You're either Bellum, Le Skunk, or one of their corpies :P.
Anyway, call it "power", "wanting to be my daddy", or whatever you want to call it. What makes that better than the so-called carebear greed? You get turned on by being "some guy's daddy" as you put it. And you don't find that even a little disturbing? But carebears being greedy is the big "no-no" for you? You don't find your thoughts even a bit hypocritical?
Wonmbak isn't me. And as far as I know, he/she/it isn't one of my corpmates alts either. Rest assured that if I have something to say, I'll say it with my main.
On that note, happy trolling 
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Originally by: Bellum Eternus
That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
tiviirulez
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Posted - 2010.03.20 07:45:00 -
[27]
Quite a few reasonable posts in here. There is hope. 
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2010.03.20 09:27:00 -
[28]
Matrix your posts never fail to take the stupidity so far off the meter it becomes funny.
We use different words to describe differents things. If you try and make all motivation = greed you are using dumb speech. The same with people describing risk averse pvpers as carebears. Why don't you just replace the word "the" with "what" in your sentences and see how that works for you?
If a pvper is risk averse they are risk averse (cowards, yella bellies etc) not a carebear. Carebears can be stupidly brave - it is the stupidity that is the most commen element with carebear pvp. Carebears like carebearing and people are carebears to greater and lesser degrees (including 0) dependent on how much they like carebearing. To be fundamentally a carebear means carebearing is your main thing.
Get your insults right!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.03.20 09:50:00 -
[29]
Oh jesus is it that time of the month again?
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2010.03.20 12:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Matrix your posts never fail to take the stupidity so far off the meter it becomes funny.
We use different words to describe differents things. If you try and make all motivation = greed you are using dumb speech. The same with people describing risk averse pvpers as carebears. Why don't you just replace the word "the" with "what" in your sentences and see how that works for you?
If a pvper is risk averse they are risk averse (cowards, yella bellies etc) not a carebear. Carebears can be stupidly brave - it is the stupidity that is the most commen element with carebear pvp. Carebears like carebearing and people are carebears to greater and lesser degrees (including 0) dependent on how much they like carebearing. To be fundamentally a carebear means carebearing is your main thing.
Get your insults right!
What? Are you trying to tell me that there's something other than greed driving people to do stuff?
Well, here's what I think (and I'm pretty sure I'm 100% correct), even if you share something that you have with someone else, there is a an ulterior motive. Even though you aren't aware of it, it's always there. See, when you do some one a favor, you expect something in return, even if it's not right then and there.
Every action performed by every person is motivated by excactly the same selfish greed. Even when people struggle only to live another day, they are still motivated by greed. See, in an environment where there are limited supplies available, your survival means another mans (or woman) death.
Without greed, there would be no motivation, and the human race would wither and die as a result. If you think there is such a thing as a selfless act, then you're living a lie. We're all greedy selfish bastards, and there is nothing short of extintion that's ever going to change that.
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