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Valoric Liao
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Posted - 2010.03.20 04:11:00 -
[1]
Why all the hate? I'm not yet in a position to fly either the Sin or the Kronos, but when all I read about them here is S&M (eeeew!)is how lacking they are, I'm not exactly jumping to train for them either. Is there an opposing view, or are these two ships the runty little ugducks the forums make them out to be?
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Boss Vlad
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.20 05:04:00 -
[2]
i fly the Kronos at the moment. I have found it be lacking, that could be some of my skills, however based on forum research it seems to suck for everyone. That being said, most of that comes from the weapon system, and drone bay. As the hate builds there is usually an overhaul or a buff that helps it out to be useful, not great, but decent. train for it, then wait for the buff, it may happen in may. |
Reldor Silverheart
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Posted - 2010.03.20 13:12:00 -
[3]
It's because of the dominix bandwagon. Everyone swears by the dominix, because everyone likes to afk. I have taken a look at them and they seem fairly good to me truth to be told. I can't fly them yet either, but they do seem like great ships in the right hands.
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MWDrive
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Posted - 2010.03.20 15:57:00 -
[4]
its not that kronos is bad.. its better than domi... but other marauders are much better...
dont know much about sin... black ops aint used very much, or better, they have limited use... you dont want to pvp with them... they are only useful for covops bridging... |
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2010.03.20 17:25:00 -
[5]
The relatively bad Kronos is now even worse when compared with the Vindicator for dps. The Kronos has a better tank, yes, and salvage options, but any decent player should be able to solo-tank level 4s in any battleship. The Vindi does 800+ dps with railguns alone, has enough drone space for 5 heavies and it can web smaller ships.
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Eventus stultorum magister. |
Ogogov
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Posted - 2010.03.22 14:22:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Arthur Frayn
The relatively bad Kronos is now even worse when compared with the Vindicator for dps. The Kronos has a better tank, yes, and salvage options, but any decent player should be able to solo-tank level 4s in any battleship. The Vindi does 800+ dps with railguns alone, has enough drone space for 5 heavies and it can web smaller ships.
sshh! they'll nerf it (the Vindi) again ;_;
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Zhilia Mann
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Posted - 2010.03.22 16:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
It's because of the dominix bandwagon. Everyone swears by the dominix, because everyone likes to afk.
Umm. Most of the top-tier Domi builds are based on sentries, guns, and an unstable tank. There's nothing afk about them.
You can fly one with heavies and a turtle tank and play the afk game, but that hasn't been fotm for some time now.
Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
I have taken a look at them and they seem fairly good to me truth to be told. I can't fly them yet either, but they do seem like great ships in the right hands.
Perhaps try it before you comment on it?
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Abervest
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Posted - 2010.03.22 19:00:00 -
[8]
i have the afk domi set uo, i have the nice railed navy mega set up, I am like 23 days from a kronos, Im also intrested in whether there are any voices advocating it (not just "golem/vargur/Paladin = win" replies)
I do dislike the size of the Krono's drone bay, currently im loving the Navymegas flexability in that area, (5 heavies + 5 meds) and im concerned about the change.
arent drones supposed to be a main weapon of gsllente ships? to augment the low hybrid dps? or is it just that hybrids suck and drones are universal damage augmentations?
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Ogogov
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Posted - 2010.03.22 19:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Abervest
arent drones supposed to be a main weapon of gsllente ships? to augment the low hybrid dps? or is it just that hybrids suck and drones are universal damage augmentations?
Hybrids suck and CCP aren't keen on drones given the performance issues they cause in large numbers.
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Kharanid
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Posted - 2010.03.23 07:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: Abervest
arent drones supposed to be a main weapon of gsllente ships? to augment the low hybrid dps? or is it just that hybrids suck and drones are universal damage augmentations?
Hybrids suck and CCP aren't keen on drones given the performance issues they cause in large numbers.
I doubt your drone theory has to much merit in regards to the Kronos drone bay/bandwidt, its not like its swarming with marauders in fleet fights or even small gangs.
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Shana Matika
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Posted - 2010.03.23 08:26:00 -
[11]
The Kronos is not the prefered tool cause all other Marauders can actually use their high-dps weapon.
A Paladin with Mega Pulse II + Scorch can hit out to 65km+ with decent skills.
A Golem can use Torps up to 60km+-
A Vaguar can use autocanons up to 100km+
A Kronos can use Blaster up to.....what? 10km- <- THAT'S the reason.
Even with rails the Kronos got a range of 45-100km depending on ammo...but with very bad tracking/dps compared to Paladin and Vaguar.
Something need to be done here...in it's current state the Kronos is always under performing compared to the other Marauders.
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VanNostrum
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Posted - 2010.03.23 09:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shana Matika
A Paladin with Mega Pulse II + Scorch can hit out to 65km+ with decent skills.
A Golem can use Torps up to 60km+-
A Vaguar can use autocanons up to 100km+
A Kronos can use Blaster up to.....what? 10km- <- THAT'S the reason.
lolwat?
U used long range ammo on paladin & vaguar plus range mods but not on kronos? You know you can reach 46km optimal+falloff with null ammo right? (and still get 900+ dps)
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.23 10:19:00 -
[13]
And roughly 400 dps at 46km, you going to try to tickle the npcs to death?
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ShahFluffers
Gallente
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.03.23 10:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Valoric Liao
Why all the hate? I'm not yet in a position to fly either the Sin or the Kronos, but when all I read about them here is S&M (eeeew!)is how lacking they are, I'm not exactly jumping to train for them either. Is there an opposing view, or are these two ships the runty little ugducks the forums make them out to be?
Since everyone is busy tossing around stats and theory crafting about marauders I'll fill you in on the Sin.
Understand, the primary purpose of Black-ops ships is to turn the usual roaming "shadow gangs" (all cloaking ships) into "make them **** bricks and then disappear" gangs. Basically you have a scout find a target, pop the covert cyno on top of the target, bridge everyone else in, jump in yourself, gank, warp off, and cloak. Rinse and repeat.
Now, while the process I described above seems pretty long, it isn't; it all happens in about minute or so (depending on how tough the target is). Because of this one has little time to do anything outside of targeting and firing a volley or two from guns and/or launchers. Moreover, once the target is dead everyone has to scatter immediately for fear of "meeting" some of the victim's friends that might be in the vicinity (one learns very quickly that cloaky ships usually don't stand up very well to 1v1 fight with anything in its class).
With that said, let us look at the Sin. Unlike other Black-ops ships the Sin's primary weapon system are drones.
Why drones you ask?
Well, it has that massive drone bay. And if you've played around with drones for awhile you'll know that they're awesome in endurance fights (no cap usage, fire independently, aren't affected by your ship's issues)... but in fast gankage situations they are nothing more than a hindrance and will often result in your either either forgetting them (never launched or never recalled) or lingering too long and losing your ship while they were returning (this is especially true for ships where drones are one's primary DPS dealer).
So why doesn't a Sin pilot throw on guns instead?
Despite being a T2 ship, the Sin (and Black-ops ships in general) don't possess good Powergrid and CPU... ergo, they have to choose what to fit for; tank, utility, or gank.
Now... speaking strictly as someone who has seen working fits tossed around... people tend to fit for utility and/or gank on the assumption that they're either going to kill everyone they jump into or be killed. However, the Sin has the special distinction for having little in the way of gank or utility bonuses. It instead has an agility bonus. This makes getaways easier for it but quite a few people bash it as being fairly useless as many Black-ops pilots already nano-fit their ships.
Wow... wall of text. I guess I'll stop there and let people fill the gaps I left.
Hope this helps shed some light on the Sin.
_______________________
"Just because I look like an idiot doesn't mean I am one."
~Unknown |
Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2010.03.23 10:56:00 -
[15]
Gallente t2 battleships? These exist? 
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2010.03.23 11:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shana Matika
The Kronos is not the prefered tool cause all other Marauders can actually use their high-dps weapon.
A Paladin with Mega Pulse II + Scorch can hit out to 65km+ with decent skills.
A Golem can use Torps up to 60km+-
A Vaguar can use autocanons up to 100km+
A Kronos can use Blaster up to.....what? 10km- <- THAT'S the reason.
Even with rails the Kronos got a range of 45-100km depending on ammo...but with very bad tracking/dps compared to Paladin and Vaguar.
Something need to be done here...in it's current state the Kronos is always under performing compared to the other Marauders.
fail.
Paladin doe snto share the range bonus of apoca. It has good range but not that mighty.
Golen, sure sure.. using 2 rigs for that plus 3 target paitnersto achieve any decent damage. So its good but with a hefty price on fittings.
VarGUR (for god sake.. is not even close to Vaguar). Sure it can hit at 100km for 1 dps. Learn how falloff work. Vargur EFFECTIVE range does not go beyond 40 km. And that is why all vargurs decently fit use faction AB to get close to their targets.
THe kronos yes could use a boost by changing one of the bonuses into a falloff bonus.
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Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.03.23 11:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
VarGUR (for god sake.. is not even close to Vaguar). Sure it can hit at 100km for 200-400 dps.
Fixed that for you. Barrage is awesome.
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Saietor Blackgreen
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.23 12:33:00 -
[18]
Ok, it is all related to range you want to apply your damage in.
It happens that with Marauders you want to do damage @30-40 km, because 40 KM is your tractors max range, and it saves a lot of time if you can start pulling wrecks right away.
Lets leave drones out of equation for a second:
I wont even talk about Paladin - you can see for yourself, how Pulses are awesome at this range.
Same thing with Torpedo Golem.
Vargur with 800s, 3 Gyros, 2 TE, 1 TC (optimal) gets about 850-900 DPS with high damage faction ammo. It can fit about 350/850 tank with Tech2 gear and 2xCCC II (Marauder skill 4), eserving one slot for Afterburner.
This translates into 750-650 DPS on target at 30-40 km.
With this setup Vargur gets monstrous 0.08 tracking has no tracking issues over BS whatsoever, and starts having any tracking problems vs cruisers only below 10 km.
Also, it can switch to Barrage and get monstrous 99 km falloff, which allows you to shoot-off frigs and cruisers all the way to your 93 km lockrange, if you dont want to loot/salvage them.
Now, lets look at Kronos. You really cannot apply your blasters here - reaching 40 km is extremely hard. So your only option is 425 rail.
If you try to reach similar stats as Vargur above, you have to use 5 of your 7 lowslots for tank, and have 2 MFS only, AND have your rigslots devoted to capacitor. Reserving one midslot for AB, you have to fill 2 remaining ones with cap rechargers, and can have 1 for tracking computer.
This gives you just 550 DPS at 35-40 KM (its your max), and just 0.02 tracking, and about exactly same tank as Vargur. And - NO DAMAGE OPTIONS, so no EM or explosive.
But overall, I cannot say that I agree that Kronos is SO bad.
First, its armor tank - so it will vastly outshine Vargur versus any EM/therm rats, or Serpentis (therm).
Second, difference is not so dramatic. Yes, it could be better, but its not 2 times worse than next one, its several percent away from the best really, if you consider all sides of it, not just DPS value in EFT.
Still, I think it would be much more interesting ship with ability to field 5 heavies. Its web bonus could be put to better use then - while your drones eat at big stuff, you can occasionally web and melt something smaller that got close.
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EvE online. New game every 6 months. |
Tyfuz
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Posted - 2010.03.23 14:52:00 -
[19]
I can confirm that Kronos is not as good as the other Marauders, it does not suck but its not as good as the other Marauders with 425mm T2 rail(dont even think about blasters...). Maby you should skill for it, usually ships that lack in performance get a boost in future patches.
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