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Zirse
Minmatar Integrated Astromechanics Corp.
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Posted - 2010.03.24 07:46:00 -
[1]
Hello S&I.
I have some related questions for the knowledgeable.
I have started running mining operations for my current corporation who have extremely varied backgrounds of experience. We have people showing up for differing amounts of time in Ospreys, Hulks, and everything in between. I am thinking of instigating a share system, in which miners are paid in shares that represent the assumed maximum-yield setup possible for their ship, times the numbers of hours they work for. Their shares divided by total shares would then determine their profits.
Will this work?
If so, where does my ORCA come in? I have theoretically worked out my yield to an increase of 45% with my current skills, but I'm not sure if this is right. Is it?
My math is as follows:
Current skills:
Leadership: 5 Mining Foreman: 5 Mining Director: 5 Warfare Link Specialist: 4 Industrial Command Ships: 4
I'm also currently utilizing a Mining Foreman Mindlink.
The 3% bonus to mining links per level from the ORCA, the 100% per level from Mining Director, the +50% increase from the mindlink, and the warfare link bonus of 10% per level all boost my mining links.
That puts my 'Laser Optimization (Mining Laser Cycle Reduction) Link' at (-2% x 5) x 1.4) x 1.12) x 1.5) or a -23.52% reduction in cycle time. 1/(1-0.2352) = 1.30 or a 30% increase in yield from the laser op module.
This is then added to the Mining Foreman/Mindlink bonus of 15% to yield rates for a combined total of 45% increase in yield.
Is this correct?
How would I work a scaling percent into a share system?
Any help would be appreciated.
And yes, I am aware of the possible incoming nerf to minerals/miners. We plan to carry on regardless of what happens. We're industrialists. We've got a stiff upper lip. We'll get through it.
Regards,
-Zirse
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Tess La'Coil
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Posted - 2010.03.24 11:48:00 -
[2]
I remember browsing the Lone Star Joint Venture forums and finding how they dealt with this particular issue.
Basically every type of miner/mining Op assister has a certain multiplier.. Say you're in a Retriever, you get 2 points multiplier.. A hulk 3 points, and a hauler 2,5. Taking that in account, you could place the Orca, which provides a +45% to all miners maybe at the same multiplier as a hulk.. 3
Of course there is the "I help 3 miners!" but without the miners.. youre bonusses wouldn't work either. As long as the rules and modifiers are clear to all involved you'd be fine. I just don't know about the exact finetuning.. but I'd base the multiplier on the shiptype, not so much on the fitting of the ship.. since every miner -will- do their best to get as much as they can out of the strippers.. and if they aren't there yet, and are waiting for skills to finish its not so nice to punish them. As they are already boosting income. A ship extra is worth more than .10% on a laser.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Audit Services Inc
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Posted - 2010.03.24 12:24:00 -
[3]
Within the Eve Industrial Organiser spreadsheet for excel 2007 you will find a tab called 'MiningOp'
From there you can set up a corporation tax and you can enter in what I call vouchers which is used to calculate each persons share of all the ore mined.
Of course you don't want to give one share out to everyone so you can double or triple it depending on what they're using and double it each hour, but it's manually entry so you can make up your own rules, it does the maths for you and takes in to account any surplus units too.
What's this upcoming nerf you mention too?
Hope this helps your corp mining ops. There's also a neat Mineral 2 Ore sheet as well so if you know you need a certain amount of minerals it'll tell you what you can mine and how many units to achieve the mineral target.
Eve Industrial Organiser - Full batch manufacturing
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:07:00 -
[4]
or you can just split it equally
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:33:00 -
[5]
Originally by: ingenting or you can just split it equally
While that sounds great on paper, it severely penalizes the skilled miners in the fleet. What would be the point of me spending 90+d to have maxed mining skills when someone with barely 1d of training will get the same ISK/minerals/whatever from an op? My industrial corp uses the spreadsheet talked about above and it works out very well. If everyone got same share, I would train up a fleet of noobs in Ospreys to make tons of money on the backs of the Hulk pilots. -----------------------------------
Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Audit Services Inc
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:50:00 -
[6]
You could split it equally amongst everyone and exp-l has done this a few times before, just depends what each individual wants to get out of a corporation op, only the very selfish would demand extra payment just because they believe their character is worth more than a new character who actually needs the extra few million isk.
But it's entirely up to each corporation to decide on how they split and what they split at the end of the op, we had a buy back scheme at a 1.5% discount from the market price and was updated and published on a weekly basis, this enabled people who wanted to mine out of corp ops to do so and help the corp by selling the minerals for a sum not that much under the market buy order rate.
I believe the most important thing is transparency whether or not you see it as fair, then you can decide to sell to competitors or help the corporation out.
Eve Industrial Organiser - Full batch manufacturing
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Whacky Iraqi
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Posted - 2010.03.24 16:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush You could split it equally amongst everyone and exp-l has done this a few times before, just depends what each individual wants to get out of a corporation op, only the very selfish would demand extra payment just because they believe their character is worth more than a new character who actually needs the extra few million isk.
This man voted for obama. protip: the hulk miners with max skills are not greedy nor demanding extra payment they earned it. the share system also gives incentive for lesser skilled miners to train up so they can contribute more and earn more. why would i ever train a hulk if i can get equal distribution sitting in an osprey?
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Enthral
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Posted - 2010.03.24 17:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Whacky Iraqi
Originally by: Sidrat Flush You could split it equally amongst everyone and exp-l has done this a few times before, just depends what each individual wants to get out of a corporation op, only the very selfish would demand extra payment just because they believe their character is worth more than a new character who actually needs the extra few million isk.
This man voted for obama. protip: the hulk miners with max skills are not greedy nor demanding extra payment they earned it. the share system also gives incentive for lesser skilled miners to train up so they can contribute more and earn more. why would i ever train a hulk if i can get equal distribution sitting in an osprey?
You can't win, friend. People with socialist leanings, see those people mining in an osprey not as individuals who need encouragement to excel, but as victims of an unjust system.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.03.24 17:58:00 -
[9]
You could do the smart thing, and just say no to mining. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
ISellThingz
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Posted - 2010.03.24 18:35:00 -
[10]
Edited by: ISellThingz on 24/03/2010 18:44:48 Just take notes how much ore each miner dumps in yer cargo
Take like 20% of everything for yourself. Divide the rest.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:54:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 24/03/2010 23:55:27 Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 24/03/2010 23:54:03 http://www.avatarsunited.com/apps/mm/
This has a shares system.
However I'd suggest that Hulk pilots who have spent weeks of their life mining really don't care if the Osprey pilot gets a lil extra.
Anyone who makes a fuss over something like this isn't worth having around.
edit: btw AvatarsUnited is the real EveGate.... It includes Open Standards which play nice with other social networks. Rather then being proprietry, exploitable, untested, in-house code with none of the features common to other social networks.
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Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.03.25 05:13:00 -
[12]
Every op I've ever been on has either been split equal or 100% to corp yeah someone in a mining frig/cruiser is gonna mine alot less but if they are serious about being a miner will need isk for skills and to buy a hulk/covetor once they get skilled up is all equal and unless your just greedy its nice to help people/corp mates if you don't want to split train a few alt miners and a booster and do your own solo op
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Joe SMASH
Originally by: ingenting or you can just split it equally
While that sounds great on paper, it severely penalizes the skilled miners in the fleet.
Works everyone isn't a greedy bastard, and you actually try to make everyone in the corp prosper.
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:52:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Joe SMASH on 25/03/2010 19:55:09 People who argue against someone who wants a share comparable to their skills are the same people who believe that the minerals they mine are free.
Time is NOT free! This includes time spent on skills.
It is not being a 'greedy bastard' to want payoff for spending time to have perfect skills as a Hulk pilot. If the corp is mining for a group project (cap ships etc) then sure, everyone gets a fair share. But if the result of the mining op is the minerals/ore/ISK/whatever goes to the pilots for the gain of the pilot and not the corp, then I would expect the people who fly Hulks get paid more than Bantams/Ospreys.
Eve rewards the dedicated players and the long term goal makers. That is not greed, it is logic. -----------------------------------
Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
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Volar Kang
Gallente Ragged Rock Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:34:00 -
[15]
I have been in several mining corps in my career and personally, I dont feel equal shares is a good idea. The first corp I was in did this and it was awesome for me when I first started. I got into the Hulk and was more than happy to do it for the new guys. Over time I saw many new guys come in, get paid very well, work into a Hulk and then leave. Eventually I felt I was wasting my time on mining ops.
The share versus ship class idea worked well in other corps. The guys in the smaller ships dont expect a handout and realize they wont be getting as much as the Hulk guys and they are fine with that unless they are only there to milk your corp. A hulk mines more than 3 times worth of a crusier so the smaller ship guys still made more money than they would if they mined on their own plus got hauling service.
If you want a corp to grow and become something, you have to have rules that are fair to everyone and that reward ALL effort. If you only reward new players, you will eventually find that you only have new players in your corp.
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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Joe SMASH Edited by: Joe SMASH on 25/03/2010 19:55:09 People who argue against someone who wants a share comparable to their skills are the same people who believe that the minerals they mine are free.
Time is NOT free! This includes time spent on skills.
It is not being a 'greedy bastard' to want payoff for spending time to have perfect skills as a Hulk pilot. If the corp is mining for a group project (cap ships etc) then sure, everyone gets a fair share. But if the result of the mining op is the minerals/ore/ISK/whatever goes to the pilots for the gain of the pilot and not the corp, then I would expect the people who fly Hulks get paid more than Bantams/Ospreys.
Eve rewards the dedicated players and the long term goal makers. That is not greed, it is logic.
While I agree with your rant I would like to point out that the phrase "corp mining op" to most people means that they are mining for the corporation. To me that just means if I get a kick back for participation, groovy. If not well darn. Granted neither my corporation or alliance holds mining ops so my opinion is moot.
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Enthral
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Posted - 2010.03.25 20:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ingenting Works everyone isn't a greedy bastard, and you actually try to make everyone in the corp prosper.
We spend months training into a Hulk, months getting perfect mining skills, millions of isk on skillbooks, hundreds of millions of isk on mining implants, hundreds of millions of isk on equipment, and countless hours of mindless mining to pay for it all.
Then we watch someone who has so far put in no effort into their mining skills get equal share of the mining op, and when we complain, you call us greedy bastards?
How on earth do you come to the conclusion, that the person who works hard towards a goal, is a greedy bastard for not wanting the hard earned fruits of his labor to go to the person who hasn't done anything yet?
Explain to me how you're not the one who is the selfish, greedy bastard, for trying to take what I've earned and giving it to someone else?
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nether void
Caldari Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.03.25 21:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Volar Kang I have been in several mining corps in my career and personally, I dont feel equal shares is a good idea. The first corp I was in did this and it was awesome for me when I first started. I got into the Hulk and was more than happy to do it for the new guys. Over time I saw many new guys come in, get paid very well, work into a Hulk and then leave. Eventually I felt I was wasting my time on mining ops.
The share versus ship class idea worked well in other corps. The guys in the smaller ships dont expect a handout and realize they wont be getting as much as the Hulk guys and they are fine with that unless they are only there to milk your corp. A hulk mines more than 3 times worth of a crusier so the smaller ship guys still made more money than they would if they mined on their own plus got hauling service.
If you want a corp to grow and become something, you have to have rules that are fair to everyone and that reward ALL effort. If you only reward new players, you will eventually find that you only have new players in your corp.
A real gem of info for leadership in any game (hell, any civilization for that matter). Equality of effort; not individuals.
Funny how something so simple can elude so many people. Well hey sombody's gotta pump the gas in this world.
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Halada
Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.03.26 15:22:00 -
[19]
This is how it worked in my corp:
2. Corporation
LSJV is an industry focused corporation with a small but very focused PvP wing as well. It's main activity centers around mining, exploring, inventing and producing, as well as small to medium roaming ops.
LSJV has a very US playerbase with a growing EU presence. There is always at least 15 people in corp chat at all times, with peaks reaching up to 40.
Our taxes are as follow: Ratting, Missioning: 20% Mining: 30%
We have no monthly tax (the alliances has one, but the corporation covers it for you) and no real activity quota past the trial period. However, during your first 30 days (sort of trial period), you will be looked upon by the leadership and if your playtime is not satisfactory to us, unless a good reason is provided, you will be expelled. Unsatisfactory playtime for us equals to 2 hours or less per week.
3. Mining
As mentionned earlier, mining is the center activity of LSJV. With access to over 50 belts, LSJV exclusively mines Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Mercoxit and occasionally. Using a custom application called "Mining Buddy", we record in real time mining ops, who is attending, for how long, what ship they were in and how much was mined.
I have devised a special program that is exclusive to LSJV and has since its launch made its proofs. The program approaches an "Instant Payout" scheme, where a certain cut off the value of the ore is taken by the corp (30%) and the miner is paid directly, usually the same day, for the ore he mined that day.
Using a special web-based application called Mining Buddy, LSJV uses a fair distributing system of the shares involved in between the different miners.
Quote: Hauler - 2.5
Tank (alt) - 0.5 Tank - 1 Booster - 1 Booster +Tank - 1.5
Mining Cruiser - 1.5 Mining Battleship - 2.0 Retriever - 2.0 Covetor - 3.0 Hulk- 3.5
Mining Buddy registers the amount of time you spent in the belt as well as which ship you were flying, and at the end of the op, computes the total value of everything that was mined and automatically calculates your cut in ISK.
Example: You field one Hulk pilot, as well as a hauler alt. For the sake of simplicity, everyone mined or hauled for the same amount of time, so this variable will be excluded.
Quote: Hulk: 3.5 shares Hauler: 2.5 shares ------------------------- Total: 6 shares
So at the end of the op, you would get 6 shares from the total value of the mining operation.
You should notice haulers are highly paid for the hard work they do, and this system also rewards those who field alts.
To facilitate hauling, a POS was erected in each system the corp is allowed to mine in. This allows for quicker hauling sessions and also acts as protection if hostiles are reported. The corporation will use its logistic assets (Rorqual or Jump Freighter) to move the ore from the POS to the refinery.
Show me the money (an over simplified example)
LSJV .................................. VS ......................... Going it Solo Via Local Sales to
LSJV Pays for 200 Bistot.......................................Local buy orders in 1Ix $1,151,534........................................ ..................$1,022,340 -10% Refining Tax ...............................................-10% Refining Tax $1,036,381........................................ ..................$920,106 -20% Base Tax of Loan Star...............................-20% Avg Waste Refining at 1ix /w avg Skills $829,104.......................................... ...................$736,085 +50% Booster Available at Most Ops $1,243,65
= Mining with LSJV produces 69% More than mining alone
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THE COMPLETE MINER'S GUIDE - VERSION 3.0 EXTENDED EDITION |
Halada
Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.03.26 15:23:00 -
[20]
See this magnificent thread on our forums for more details on how we proceeded. THE COMPLETE MINER'S GUIDE - VERSION 3.0 EXTENDED EDITION |
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Mathrin
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Posted - 2010.03.26 16:58:00 -
[21]
This is what my corp does.
Role: # of shares Defender: 1 (currently only 1 per op but number and share amount may change due to war) Industrial Hauler: 1 (# of haulers needed depends on amount of mineral output) Freighter Hauler: 2 (# of haulers needed depends on amount of mineral output) Refiner: 5% (usually only one needed per job) Frigate/Cruiser/Procurer: 1 Destroyer/BCruiser/Bship/Retriever: 2 Covetor/Skiff: 2 /Mackinaw/Exhumer: 3 Capital Industrial: 1 (For giving Foreman link bonuses) Cumulative Capital Industrial: 1 (For collecting and storing ore for haulers) Cumulative Capital Industrial: 1 (For hauling ore to station)Cumulative
there is a 10% corp tax and the orca pilot can only get a max 2 shares, after all he can store ore for haulers AND haul it to the station.
Its not perfect but i seems to work for what we have done so far. We like it because it gives more isk to higher trained pilots but the frigate noobs still get some good isk too. bottom line the more we mine the more everyone gets. Oh and usually the corp buys up the minerals at the previous days average, that allows us to give the payout a day or so after the event.
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.03.26 18:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Joe SMASH People who argue against someone who wants a share comparable to their skills are the same people who believe that the minerals they mine are free.
why dont you open up eve-search.com and look at my posts about just that
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Volar Kang
Gallente Ragged Rock Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.27 00:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Halada See this magnificent thread on our forums for more details on how we proceeded.
That is some awesome stuff you guys have going on in LSJV. That is the best layout I have seen for miners. Did you develope the mining buddy application?
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.03.27 03:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Volar Kang Did you develope the mining buddy application?
The MiningBuddy guy didn't play eve for long really, hence why he is/was so reluctant to update it.
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Zirse
Minmatar Integrated Astromechanics Corp.
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Posted - 2010.03.27 06:27:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Zirse on 27/03/2010 06:28:37 Thank-you Halada that was most helpful.
EDIT: Don't suppose you'd want to share the Mining Buddy code...
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DJ Skrull
Caldari Miners and Refiners
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Posted - 2010.03.27 09:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Zirse Hello S&I.
yadda, yadda, yadda
-Zirse
Another tool to help you figure out fair payment is the loot logging function in the fleet window. Enable loot logging when you form your fleet, and when your done, look at the histories tab, loot logging window. It will show you who mined what of which ore type. This will help you set up a reasonable formula for paying your miners. EVEntually |
Ka choop
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Posted - 2010.03.27 15:58:00 -
[27]
"Fair" doesn't exist because what's fair to you might not be to me. Everyone has another definition of fair, so trying to be fair doesn't help.
Instead, you have to look at the goals of your corps and cater your rule set to help achieve those goals. Incentive is one of the biggest words here
Let's say one of your goals is to have maximum yield mining ops. For that you need Hulk pilots and an Orca but also haulers. So, you need to reward your current Hulk pilots enough that they won't go away and also reward your non-Hulk pilots in a way that they don't leave but also have a reason to want to become a Hulk pilot.
A share system can help very well here, the Hulk pilots won't feel like they're carrying the others (too much) and the non-Hulk pilots see the others making more and it's clear to them why they make more but they also feel they get paid by ratio. Toss in some free skill books and you'll have your Hulk fleet ops in no-time.
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Janann
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Posted - 2010.03.27 16:21:00 -
[28]
I remember flying my bantam when everyone else had hulks. I would get enough to buy some skills, but other then that I did not get much. Thant was okay with me because it would have been unfair to everyone else if I was getting the same share as the hulks.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.27 16:44:00 -
[29]
If your corp is well-rounded the take from group ops balances out in the end.
My main is a skilled miner with leadership skills thus I make less on group ops when sharing the take with battleship and cruiser pilots (50% to the corp, 50% split among participants).
But my mission skills aren't so hot -- I can't fly a battleship -- so when we do mission ops I end up salvaging or killing frigates. The skilled level 4 runners who got more than they "deserved" from the mining op subsidize me on those ops.
Additionally, everyone's taxes keep the POS running and the industrial characters tend to do more research so, again, being generous on mining ops gets a return that way.
In a less well-rounded corp things might not work out so nicely, but if you've missioners and miners in balanced proportions it works very well.
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Halada
Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.03.27 17:49:00 -
[30]
If you wish to see Mining Buddy in action, head here:
http://www.lsjv-eve.com/mining/ Login: demo Password: demo
As for the code, the original is available somewhere, but this one was heavily, heavily modified and made 100x better by awesome Flios Bror. If you contact him and ask nicely he might give it to you, or if I were him, sell it for good ISK, because that program is really awesome.
He added ability to: -Sort usernames by letter -Option to confirm an operation as verified, paid, or closed -Add MINERAL quotes and use these to calculate all ore quotes automatically (before you had to edit each ore manually...) -Ability to add ships and their shares at will
and so much more I probably didn't even notice.
This guy is a coding guru and deserves a lot of praises. LSJV would never gave thrived so much without Mining Buddy, so I must thank both the original writer and Flios for making it what it is! THE COMPLETE MINER'S GUIDE - VERSION 3.0 EXTENDED EDITION |
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