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Golem ?s about crusiers, sigs, torps, TPs

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piecakes's brother	Posted - 2010.03.26 04:42:00 - [1] I will be in a golem in the next few days. I am confused about a few things though. Mainly how the sigs of cruiser affect torps. OK try to stay with my----Some math involved This ? goes towards the Torp golem/ 2xTP Missioners (I will use round numbers and round up for easy math) crusier=150 sig tp = 30% tp Torps =650 sig (rage) Crusier + 2x TP =Sig of 250 Sig of 250 / sig of 650 = 40% difference So will my volley of 8000 Hit at this 40% rate? (3200) If volley is 3200 is that not enough to pop a crusier? How much HP do they have? So please correct my math if It doesn't work like this.
Missm Uppet Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.26 05:02:00 - [2] You've got a good start but here are some things missing from your calculation. Target painting bonus of Golem, signature focusing skill level, the speed at which the cruiser is flying, the resists of the cruiser, the explosion velocity of the missile, your target navigation prediction skill level, the stacking penalties of using more than one target painter on the same object, any rigs or implants which affect any of the above mentioned items.
piecakes's brother	Posted - 2010.03.26 05:49:00 - [3] I know im missing the tp skills and bonuses for golem. I was wondering though off of that basic math if that is about right....I know that bonuses and effect are based off of skills but i was trying to make it as simple as I could and then apply my skills
HilsterAUS Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.26 08:18:00 - [4] I know i'm going to get flamed here but what the heck I mission with two characters, the first in a cruise golem (yes that's right a cruise golem) and the second in a salvaging hurricane. Why a cruise golem? It has a great tank and can hit everything easily. I run 3 tractors so wait until everything is within 40 kms and then tractor everything into a big ball. For those missions that have npc's that stay further out, i shoot them anyway and leave them there for the salvager. The salvager comes along with 2 tractors (in case anything is out of range) and 6 T2 salvagers and cleans up the lot. There's not too many missions where I can get all the salvage in one hit. I keep all the meta 4 stuff (for pvp fits), sell all the rest provided it's not worse than 15% at Jita and whatever is left over I crush for mins to use for builds. I've flown a nightmare (which is unbeatable as a second runner) but overall prefer the golem - it's suits my use. flame away
Draco Dux Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.26 09:54:00 - [5] Edited by: Draco Dux on 26/03/2010 10:01:29 Originally by: piecakes's brother I will be in a golem in the next few days. I am confused about a few things though. Mainly how the sigs of cruiser affect torps. OK try to stay with my----Some math involved This ? goes towards the Torp golem/ 2xTP Missioners (I will use round numbers and round up for easy math) crusier=150 sig tp = 30% tp Torps =650 sig (rage) Crusier + 2x TP =Sig of 250 Sig of 250 / sig of 650 = 40% difference So will my volley of 8000 Hit at this 40% rate? (3200) If volley is 3200 is that not enough to pop a crusier? How much HP do they have? So please correct my math if It doesn't work like this. Even if you only asked for the Maths i will take some more realistic Numbers: 1. Don't use Rage!!!! Rage are only for shooting POSs and Capitals. For a Missionship they are useless. So i will use CN-Torps for the Maths. Targetsig 150. TP on the Golem with proper Skills 51,56%. CM Explorad 450. Stacking Penalty for the 2. Painter 86,9% so he only gives 44,8% Bonus. 1501,51561,448 = 329,19 So the Missiles will only do 94% of their Raw-Damage. CN-Volley Raw: 7868 On Target flying not faster than 133m/s: 7395,92 The effective HPs of the NPC-Cruisers on their lowest Resists are ~5000. But nearly all Cruisers are faster than 133m/s, so you have to calculate the Explovelo/Targetspeed-Damagereduction in.
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:19:00 - [6] I am really not so good in maths, so the only way for me is to take out my golem, change the fitting, go into some missions and do the reality test. And then i look how much damage i really do and how long it takes me to kill those bastards when they all aggro me at once and trying to web and scramble my (then pretty much fragile) Golem. And even with 3 targetpainters and 3 bcu¦s i was not able to kill those small ships fast enough and i hardly managed to warp out. I lost my golem in 1 stupid mission where 8 ! ships scrambled and webbed me and my shields melted so fast... Usually this dont happen, but one time is enough to loose it. I dont trust in maths numbers much, because the real situation in a mission is more complex then one formula. After i switched to cruise missiles and a fast fitting for safer Distance, i am probably not so fast in terms of isk/hour, but much safer. Dont wanna loose >>1.8 bn again. But i really would like to see the maths of some of those complex situation, when you warp in with a torp golem and you have full aggro with a fresh new spawn of small ships.
Gul Rashen	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:26:00 - [7] Think we discussed your Problems with the Torp-Golem enough in other Threads. This is not a "CM or Torp-what's better?" - Thread. Such kind of Threads we had plenty enough the last Weeks.
Colonel Evans	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle I am really not so good in maths I lost my golem
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.26 10:55:00 - [9] Thats right, but i would like to see the maths why.. Reason behind for me is, yesterday evening i was doing an escalation with a navy raven with cruise missiles fitting and i wasnt even able with this ship to kill the frigs fast enough. I really wonder how this could be done with a torp ship.
Phocion402 Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle Thats right, but i would like to see the maths why.. Reason behind for me is, yesterday evening i was doing an escalation with a navy raven with cruise missiles fitting and i wasnt even able with this ship to kill the frigs fast enough. I really wonder how this could be done with a torp ship. I believe I can quote Liang here...... "If you're shooting the frigates your doing it wrong" Try launching some drones!

Colonel Evans	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:14:00 - [11] If you're shooting torps. At a frigate. In a Golem. You're REALLY doing it wrong. What did you think they made light drones for?! And the fact that the Golem and Raven have drone bays didn't make it obvious thats WHY they're there?! I really dont know anyone else who has ever lost a golem, much less in a mission or a plex.
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:26:00 - [12] Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 26/03/2010 11:29:25 Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 26/03/2010 11:27:39 Well i am not stupid, of course i am using drones. But 5 drones are killing 1 ship in a time while plenty of others (>>30 ! didnt count them really) are shooting you. And they switch to the drones so i have to pull them in and out again. It takes time for the drones to reach their targets. This all takes a lot of time and i give support with missiles, while the shields are melting like butter in the sun.
Gul Rashen	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:38:00 - [13] Edited by: Gul Rashen on 26/03/2010 11:39:54 Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle Thats right, but i would like to see the maths why.. I really wonder how this could be done with a torp ship. O.K. Warpin and B*****t, Aggro from 6 Warp Scrambling Frigs, 5 Cruisers, 6 BCs and 6 BSs, incoming >1000DPS, too much for the 500DPS Tank. Player 1: Oo, my shield melts and i'm warpscrambled. Player 1 begins begins to shoot at the frigs and launches his Drones, cause he is afraid that he can't stand the Damage, 2 min. later the incoming DPS is still 1000 and 1 of the Frigs is still alive so he can't warpout....Booom Player 2: Oh, yeah the blablabla-Mission. There will be alot of Ships. Have to pay attention to kill the NPC-Damagedealers first. Player 2 launches his Drones and then begin to kill the BCs, after that he begins to shoot the BS. 2min later he killed all BCs and 3 BSs, and has reduced the incoming Damage to less than 500 and his Shield is stable. He is still warpscrambled cause there are still 3 Frigs alive, but he have not to warp out and so it doesn't matter. Torp-Ship-->reducing incoming Damage is a part of tanking If this don't fit your Playstyle then yes, using CMs is better for you.
People's elbow	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:46:00 - [14] if you have troubles with drones you have to skill them. Drones are very good at destroying smaller ships like frigs. They are fast and take 2-3 volley to shoot a frig if you have skill and the good damage for the npc. If you manage to be in a golem (or maurader in overall) i suggest you to skill drone. this isn't a waste of time. Light drones T2 can easily be trained in 10-15 days to have efficient skills. oh wait... and you can use tp on the BC/BS and not on the frigs anymore when your drones are shooting frigs.
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.26 11:46:00 - [15] Have to pay attention to kill the NPC-Damagedealers first. Player 2 launches his Drones and then begin to kill the BCs, after that he begins to shoot the BS. 2min later he killed all BCs and 3 BSs, and has reduced the incoming Damage to less than 500 and his Shield is stable. Thats a big lol for me. I maxed out all missiles skills and all shield skills and i am really not able to kill all BS in 2 min. Looks like i am playing on a totally other server probably in an other dimension or even an other game, but not the eve i know and i am doing missions and plexes since beginning of 2004.
Gul Rashen	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:06:00 - [16] Edited by: Gul Rashen on 26/03/2010 12:08:48 I wrote all BCs, not all BS. With proper Skills and good Fitting you need 1 Volley per BC and 3-5 Volleys per BS. In the Time you need to kill 1 single Frig with Torps you can kill 1-3 BS or 6-10 BCs and Cruisers. So never, never kill Frigs with Torps as long as there are other bigger Ships which deal more Damage. Each bigger Ship you kill means less damage income and that means your shield will fall slower and you have more time to kill the other Damagedealers. I never pay too much attention on the Frigs, wether they scramble, web or anything else. It doesn't matter if the Shield-HP falls or not. There are many Missions where this happens, but there is no Mission where i can't reduce the incoming Damage fast enough to get my Shield stable. Only Mission where i have to pay really Attention to kill really fast enough and make no mistakes is the AE Bonusroom. But also this is doable if you kill the NPCs in the right order. I think we not only play on different Servers, but maybe we play a different Game? Ok, maybe we only use different Fittings and Tactics and mine works better with Torps than yours
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.26 12:52:00 - [17] Ok,looks like i misread it. "Player 2 launches his Drones and then begin to kill the BCs, after that he begins to shoot the BS. 2min later he killed all BCs and 3 BSs, and has reduced the incoming Damage to less than 500 and his Shield is stable." I try now to understand this sentence again. Still probably live in an other dimension, because my watch is going faster then your one. I understand your tactic and i will try this next time, probably i am after all this time have my rails and way of gameplay and i thank you for the hint to try it a bit different. But my clocks still runs much faster then yours... 2 min ? impossible for me.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:14:00 - [18] Originally by: piecakes's brother I will be in a golem in the next few days. I am confused about a few things though. Mainly how the sigs of cruiser affect torps. Here's the thread detailing the missile damage formulas. Quote: OK try to stay with my----Some math involved This ? goes towards the Torp golem/ 2xTP Missioners (I will use round numbers and round up for easy math) crusier=150 sig tp = 30% tp Torps =650 sig (rage) Crusier + 2x TP =Sig of 250 Sig of 250 / sig of 650 = 40% difference So will my volley of 8000 Hit at this 40% rate? (3200) There are two missile formulas. The first is what you described. The second missile formula takes target speed into account. Quote: If volley is 3200 is that not enough to pop a crusier? How much HP do they have? So please correct my math if It doesn't work like this. Here's a spreadsheet I wrote to do just that: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1151130 The NPC data is from an old database dump since CCP no longer includes NPC data for new updates. You can also peruse the data online: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?category_id=11 or http://www.jovelabs.com/missions#M ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Gul Rashen	Posted - 2010.03.26 13:33:00 - [19] Edited by: Gul Rashen on 26/03/2010 13:36:25 Originally by: Aphrodite Skripalle But my clocks still runs much faster then yours... 2 min ? impossible for me. I don't know if you count your Volleys. This is very important if you want to reduce the incoming Damage as fast as possible. I have a little list where i have noted the Amounts of Volleys and the Numbers of TPs i need for each NPC. Looks like that: ** Cruiser-2TP, 1 Volley Cruiser-3TP, 1 Volley BC-1TP, 1 Volley BS- 3 Volleys ** BS- 5 Volleys I target a mix of BCs, Cruisers and BSs, activate my Target Painters as needed on the first 2-3 BCs. Then i only fire 1 Volley at the first and deactivate the Launcher and start firing on the second. Only 1 Volley again. If the TP is ready i activate it on the next BC and fire one Volley, if not i start firing at a BS, waiting for the TPs to be ready. The same Story, 3 Volleys needed for the BS so i deactivate the Launchers in the moment the 3rd Volley is fired. While i'm firing at the BS i activate the TPs on the next BCs or the next Cruiser and so on, and so on.... That's my Tactic. It's more work than flying a Ship with, let's say 3 Rigors and without TPs. So i understand the PPL who like more a Ship that needs less Management and is more comfortable at the price of Killspeed.
Aphrodite Skripalle	Posted - 2010.03.26 14:14:00 - [20] uff... i used to read a book, watch youtube videos or just chitchat with my friends while doing mission grinding. ok. well.. go ahead with torps. Looks good, very effectic. Nothing for me, really.

piecakes's brother	Posted - 2010.03.26 16:58:00 - [21] Edited by: piecakes''s brother on 26/03/2010 16:59:48 Edited by: piecakes''s brother on 26/03/2010 16:58:52 Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: piecakes's brother I will be in a golem in the next few days. I am confused about a few things though. Mainly how the sigs of cruiser affect torps. Here's the thread detailing the missile damage formulas. Quote: OK try to stay with my----Some math involved This ? goes towards the Torp golem/ 2xTP Missioners (I will use round numbers and round up for easy math) crusier=150 sig tp = 30% tp Torps =650 sig (rage) Crusier + 2x TP =Sig of 250 Sig of 250 / sig of 650 = 40% difference So will my volley of 8000 Hit at this 40% rate? (3200) There are two missile formulas. The first is what you described. The second missile formula takes target speed into account. Quote: If volley is 3200 is that not enough to pop a crusier? How much HP do they have? So please correct my math if It doesn't work like this. Here's a spreadsheet I wrote to do just that: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1151130 The NPC data is from an old database dump since CCP no longer includes NPC data for new updates. You can also peruse the data online: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?category_id=11 or http://www.jovelabs.com/missions#M thanks this is perfect


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