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[Proposal] Change Warp Stabilizer

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Delenne Sheridan	Posted - 2010.03.26 17:23:00 - [1] Remove targeting range penality from Warp Stabilizers so PvE players and mission runners can chose to enter combat with Pvp'ers or not. I real life I can avoid fighting if I dont want to. Same should be possible in Eve.
Ne0 MaTrIx Trust Doesn't Rust Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.26 17:25:00 - [2] how about you just dont put stabs in? ---
Krist Valentine Amarr Diablo Advocatus	Posted - 2010.03.26 17:26:00 - [3] so basically undo the nerf they specifically put in a year or 2 ago? dont see this one going very far
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.26 17:44:00 - [4] A big no. This will lead to people sitting at 100+km from a gate, insta-popping ships like was so common before the nerf. 1-2 stabs in low slots to prevent anyone from being able to kill them. Or carriers sitting on gates, ganking people, with a bunch of stabs so they can escape before enough people show up to tackle them. This was what low sec choke points looked like pre-stab-nerf. You couldn't travel between the different sections of high sec space and have a reasonable expectation of surviving. The warp stab nerf helps carebears more than it hurts them. Don't ask for changes until you've fully thought through the ramifications. Often, the nerfs are heavily for your benefit (like in this case).
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.03.26 18:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Delenne Sheridan Remove targeting range penality from Warp Stabilizers so PvE players and mission runners can chose to enter combat with Pvp'ers or not. I real life I can avoid fighting if I dont want to. Same should be possible in Eve. you really didn't put much thought into this did you. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.03.26 18:24:00 - [6] facepalms you will definitely break the record for most stupid suggestions in a row. benefit, less likely to be warp scrambled. price, targeting range penalty. seems balanced to me.
Delenne Sheridan	Posted - 2010.03.26 18:34:00 - [7] Originally by: darius mclever facepalms you will definitely break the record for most stupid suggestions in a row. benefit, less likely to be warp scrambled. price, targeting range penalty. seems balanced to me. Anyone but pee v pee'ers want to comment on here?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.03.26 19:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Delenne Sheridan Originally by: darius mclever facepalms you will definitely break the record for most stupid suggestions in a row. benefit, less likely to be warp scrambled. price, targeting range penalty. seems balanced to me. Anyone but pee v pee'ers want to comment on here? Actually we are industrialists... sorry to burst your bubble. Although we do PVP a little bit... not sure about Darius... likely would be mean in a fight. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2010.03.26 19:11:00 - [9] Originally by: darius mclever facepalms you will definitely break the record for most stupid suggestions in a row. benefit, less likely to be warp scrambled. price, targeting range penalty. seems balanced to me. Agreeing with Darius here! And damn you OP! I've had to wait another 5 minutes to describe how blisteringly stupid you are! Since I just posted on the Web thread! The uncatchable carriers, Snipers, etc that plagued EvE before the Nerf to Stabs is not something you want to return to! Also your probably suffering from one of the following... Desiring to rat/plex/mish in nullsec/losec in complete safety. You have been wardec'd and want to mish in empire. You have not yet considered the implications of the infiniPoint on a Heavy Interdictor yet have you? Also stop posting!
Delenne Sheridan	Posted - 2010.03.26 19:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Vespoi Filar Originally by: darius mclever facepalms you will definitely break the record for most stupid suggestions in a row. benefit, less likely to be warp scrambled. price, targeting range penalty. seems balanced to me. Agreeing with Darius here! And damn you OP! I've had to wait another 5 minutes to describe how blisteringly stupid you are! Since I just posted on the Web thread! The uncatchable carriers, Snipers, etc that plagued EvE before the Nerf to Stabs is not something you want to return to! Also your probably suffering from one of the following... Desiring to rat/plex/mish in nullsec/losec in complete safety. You have been wardec'd and want to mish in empire. You have not yet considered the implications of the infiniPoint on a Heavy Interdictor yet have you? Also stop posting! Who are you to tell anyone else to stop posting?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.03.26 20:48:00 - [11] Please Stop Posting. Get the hint yet? ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Delenne Sheridan	Posted - 2010.03.26 20:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Drake Draconis Please Stop Posting. Get the hint yet? From the rules sticky. "In this forum, *any* EVE player can raise an issue for debate." Get the hint yet?
Scerolikk Teromni	Posted - 2010.03.26 20:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Delenne Sheridan Edited by: Delenne Sheridan on 26/03/2010 18:23:06 Remove targeting range penality from Warp Stabilizers so PvE players and mission runners can chose to enter combat with Pvp'ers or not. In real life I can avoid fighting if I dont want to. Same should be possible in Eve. Yes I would love to sit 130km off a gate with a sniper battleship raping people in the face while being able to get away from every Interceptor that comes to pin me down for his fleet. Supported!
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.03.26 21:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Vespoi Filar Originally by: darius mclever facepalms you will definitely break the record for most stupid suggestions in a row. benefit, less likely to be warp scrambled. price, targeting range penalty. seems balanced to me. Agreeing with Darius here! And damn you OP! I've had to wait another 5 minutes to describe how blisteringly stupid you are! Since I just posted on the Web thread! The uncatchable carriers, Snipers, etc that plagued EvE before the Nerf to Stabs is not something you want to return to! Also your probably suffering from one of the following... Desiring to rat/plex/mish in nullsec/losec in complete safety. You have been wardec'd and want to mish in empire. You have not yet considered the implications of the infiniPoint on a Heavy Interdictor yet have you? Also stop posting! If you log out and log back in the timer is reset ___
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.03.27 01:20:00 - [15] Stabs are optional now anyways since hics were introduced. Hics are a nerf for stabs so the original nerf can be undone safelly. Added to that losing a slot to a wcs means weeker gank or tank there seems no harm in making them an optional module.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.03.27 01:21:00 - [16] I agree that maybe stabs need to be looked at since they have become pretty much useless in non-highsec since the introduction of HICs, but outright removing one of their penalties is no solution to any problem that still needs inventing. CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.31 19:28:00 - [17] Edited by: Amberlamps on 31/03/2010 19:28:10 Since the HIC can catch anything I think its about time the Warp core stab nerf was removed. I could fit 2 x Warp Core stabs to avoid getting caught my say an interceptor but I can get killed during warp by a smartbomb (off topic but slightly relevant. The Warp Core Stab can be easily countered by focused warp disruption on a HIC, I often run an Onyx in Empire wars for catching anything stabbed to the eyeballs. For a Stab with the nerf that it already has to only have one positive warp point as opposed to the Faction scramblers which have 3 x negative points. Feels like theyre nerfed enough as it is, nevermind the targeting nerf. I admit, I've never used one in my life, though I would like to see them have some real use, I imagine it would open low sec a little more for some people.
Manalapan Dynasty Banking General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.31 19:31:00 - [18] I do not support this. The point of Warp Stabilizers is that you want to avoid combat so the nerf on it just keeps it within purpose. Dynasty Banking
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.31 19:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Manalapan I do not support this. The point of Warp Stabilizers is that you want to avoid combat so the nerf on it just keeps it within purpose. The warp core stab can be easily countered. Far too easily... All you need is a Shadow Serp Scrambler and you have +3 warp points on them making them need at a minimum of 2 warp core stabilisers. A Heavy interdictor can point anything whether it is stabbed or not it doesn't bother the Dictor. ^ 2 stupidly easily counters to a stupidly overly nerfed module. Stupid I know... Due to such easy countering I think it is only fair to at least REDUCE the nerf or remove it. Possibly change it for something to do with speed... with some excuse about stress on your propulsion systems.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.31 19:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Amberlamps Originally by: Manalapan I do not support this. The point of Warp Stabilizers is that you want to avoid combat so the nerf on it just keeps it within purpose. The warp core stab can be easily countered. Far too easily... All you need is a Shadow Serp Scrambler and you have +3 warp points on them making them need at a minimum of 2 warp core stabilisers. A Heavy interdictor can point anything whether it is stabbed or not it doesn't bother the Dictor. ^ 2 stupidly easily counters to a stupidly overly nerfed module. Stupid I know... Due to such easy countering I think it is only fair to at least REDUCE the nerf or remove it. Possibly change it for something to do with speed... with some excuse about stress on your propulsion systems. LOL Easily? All you have to do is put a 120m-150m isk warp scrambler that functions at a range of 13km on your fast tackle that is likely to die. Sounds like a smart and easy fit to me! I've seen these on stupidly expensive ships. But, these stupidly expensive ships are not anything remotely close to common PVP ships. More common is having both a scram and a disruptor (for a total of 3 points) on a tackler. However, if this is your fear, you are better off fitting a scram yourself to turn off their MWD so your drones can tear him apart in .5 seconds. Anyway, what's to stop you from putting 3 stabs on your ship if you are actually worried about having 3 points on you. This is not WoW, you are not supposed to have a PVP on/off switch. Welcome to Eve.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.31 19:51:00 - [21] The nerf was imposed to reduce the massive number of near-invincible snipers on entry/choke gates in low-sec. If you remove the targeting penalty, they will return, I'll be one of them, and I'll enjoy saying, "told you so." when you come back here and cry about all the snipers your proposed un-nerf caused, and how you can't even get through low-sec gates anymore. Heavy Interdictors, if fit to survive sentry guns aren't exactly fast. They've got a relatively slow lock-time as well. It's a lot easier to get away from a HIC than some people seem to think. The ones that are fit with MWD's are still not fast enough to catch a sniper that's 100+km off a gate before he warps out unless you land on top of him. Using faction mods to circumvent warp stabs is not a viable argument to propose changing the stab. Few people use the 3-point scrams unless they know they are going to need it. The irritation of having to wait longer to lock targets in missions because you are afraid to get shot is not a viable reason to change WCS back to their previous mechanic. You are fitting them so you do not have to fight a player that scans you down to kill you. There are a multitude of methods to avoid being killed in a mission, a few of those being; keep your scanner open, check to probes in space, don't sit on the mission warp in point, mission with friends, and so on. I am against any change to the WCS as they are now. They perform their function. They do not break anything else. No change needed. -Zoltar
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.03.31 20:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Bagehi LOL Easily? All you have to do is put a 120m-150m isk warp scrambler that functions at a range of 13km on your fast tackle that is likely to die. Sounds like a smart and easy fit to me! I've seen these on stupidly expensive ships. But, these stupidly expensive ships are not anything remotely close to common PVP ships. More common is having both a scram and a disruptor (for a total of 3 points) on a tackler. However, if this is your fear, you are better off fitting a scram yourself to turn off their MWD so your drones can tear him apart in .5 seconds. Anyway, what's to stop you from putting 3 stabs on your ship if you are actually worried about having 3 points on you. This is not WoW, you are not supposed to have a PVP on/off switch. Welcome to Eve. Oh yeh... Forgot people don't invest such ISK into T3 ships, Pirate faction ships do they so investing into a high warp point, point never happens. What makes a tackler likely to die? I thought you may of noticed a lot of ships fit tackles. A good drake fit should always have a point... oh and it usually fits a stupidly high buffer. Would you consider that "easily killed". Anyway with the fact that the WCS are there to avoid combat why would you fit a scrambler to yourself and use drones... Don't think too many industrial ships fit them do you? Back to my original point a HIC can easily catch any ship no matter how many stabs, thus making a stab easily irrelevant, useless modules and a heavily nerfed ship which has been caught with ease. You talk about "so your drones can tear him apart in .5 seconds" Back to avoiding combat means you now have to initiate combat? You are also completely assuming the tackler is an interceptor... Quote: This is not WoW Thanks for pointing that out to me, I must of mixed up the Eveonline header with Blizzard Entertainment... Silly me. Finally... I hope you understand how easy it is to catch something using a HIC... infact... I hope you fly one as a HIC pilot myself I understand the concept of being SB'd and pressing F1 to infinitely point something rather easy, if that is too hard to understand please don't come back. Quote: what's to stop you from putting 3 stabs on your ship I will now use your own phrase to explain this Quote: Welcome to Eve. we have fitting limitations.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.31 20:34:00 - [23] Edited by: Bagehi on 31/03/2010 20:37:22 Originally by: Amberlamps Oh yeh... Forgot people don't invest such ISK into T3 ships, Pirate faction ships do they so investing into a high warp point, point never happens. Originally by: Bagehi I've seen these on stupidly expensive ships. But, these stupidly expensive ships are not anything remotely close to common PVP ships. Originally by: Amberlamps What makes a tackler likely to die? I thought you may of noticed a lot of ships fit tackles. A good drake fit should always have a point... oh and it usually fits a stupidly high buffer. Would you consider that "easily killed". If you are being 3-point tackled by drakes and then dying... perhaps you should blame yourself or your own fit. Alternately, you can play in space that is safe, like high sec, or join a corp/alliance and help to keep a section of space safe for the benefit of yourself and your corp/alliance mates. Originally by: Amberlamps Anyway with the fact that the WCS are there to avoid combat why would you fit a scrambler to yourself and use drones... Don't think too many industrial ships fit them do you? WCS is supposed to be primarily for travel fit ships, not so someone can rat/mission in low/null sec and be immune to PVP. Originally by: Amberlamps Back to my original point a HIC can easily catch any ship no matter how many stabs, thus making a stab easily irrelevant, useless modules and a heavily nerfed ship which has been caught with ease. You talk about "so your drones can tear him apart in .5 seconds" Back to avoiding combat means you now have to initiate combat? You are also completely assuming the tackler is an interceptor... I hope you understand how easy it is to catch something using a HIC... infact... I hope you fly one as a HIC pilot myself I understand the concept of being SB'd and pressing F1 to infinitely point something rather easy, if that is too hard to understand please don't come back. So, you're getting locked by a HIC, then it is able to get into range, and put an infinite point on you? See above comment about blame on fit/self. Pretty sure I've flown HICs, dictors, and ceptors more than you, so find someone else to lecture. Pay attention to local, don't sit at 0 from the warpin, stay aligned out... I mean some really basic concepts in Eve. My point is that WCSs are not supposed to be an idiot button to avoid combat, as can be found in more simple games like WoW. This is a higher functioning game, you are supposed to use more tactics than "press button" to win. Turn your brain back on.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Swag Co.	Posted - 2010.03.31 20:52:00 - [24] Quote: Edit: To Zoltar Tarzoid... I can't tell if I've spelt that correctly sorry, Fitting WCS to a Sniper Ship before the nerf was considered good, However think of the stupid low dps you receive now, I wasn't around when this nerf was initially instigated however was a Dramiel/Daredevil? On Sisi last night I broke the 10km/s barrier in a Dramiel for the first time myself, I managed to fly from FFA1 0m to a sniper battleship at 170km before he managed to get away I had him pointed and a random friend warped on top of him to finish him. If you weren't an eve player when this nerf was implemented, then how do you know it was considered good to have a stab on a sniper ship, furthermore how can you possibly understand why that was the case even if it were? Also, just for reference, yes, the faction frigs were around then, and they were faster. It wasn't at all uncommon for a standard T2 interceptor to hit 15-16km/s. and it wasn't unheard of for a crow pilot to spend a billion isk on dead space mods to get their ship up to 24-26km/s The sniper you caught was on sisi, where the loss of his ship isn't important the slightest. Had the situation been replayed on TQ, you can bet he'd have been aligned to something and ready to warp out the instant he realized you were coming at him. The reason snipers fit stabs pre-nerf is because there was ZERO penalty attached to them. They could fill their lows with stabs and nothing at the time could stop them from getting away short of 4-5 tacklers sporting 2-point scrams. Once again, assuming they weren't paying attention, and weren't pre-aligned. Lack of attention is not something to base balance changes on. A heavy interdictor's infini-point has a maximum range, the sniper is well outside of that range, therefore you still have to get a warp-in on the sniper, this requires some effort, and generally more than 1 person. If the siper is anywhere near worth his salt, he won't let this happen. There is no need for a sniper who's paying attention, and doesn't use only 1 snipe-point to use a WCS as a crutch. I still say there is no need to change it back. -Zoltar
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.31 21:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Zoltar Torzoid Quote: Edit: To Zoltar Tarzoid... I can't tell if I've spelt that correctly sorry, Fitting WCS to a Sniper Ship before the nerf was considered good, However think of the stupid low dps you receive now, I wasn't around when this nerf was initially instigated however was a Dramiel/Daredevil? On Sisi last night I broke the 10km/s barrier in a Dramiel for the first time myself, I managed to fly from FFA1 0m to a sniper battleship at 170km before he managed to get away I had him pointed and a random friend warped on top of him to finish him. If you weren't an eve player when this nerf was implemented, then how do you know it was considered good to have a stab on a sniper ship, furthermore how can you possibly understand why that was the case even if it were? Also, just for reference, yes, the faction frigs were around then, and they were faster. It wasn't at all uncommon for a standard T2 interceptor to hit 15-16km/s. and it wasn't unheard of for a crow pilot to spend a billion isk on dead space mods to get their ship up to 24-26km/s The sniper you caught was on sisi, where the loss of his ship isn't important the slightest. Had the situation been replayed on TQ, you can bet he'd have been aligned to something and ready to warp out the instant he realized you were coming at him. The reason snipers fit stabs pre-nerf is because there was ZERO penalty attached to them. They could fill their lows with stabs and nothing at the time could stop them from getting away short of 4-5 tacklers sporting 2-point scrams. Once again, assuming they weren't paying attention, and weren't pre-aligned. Lack of attention is not something to base balance changes on. A heavy interdictor's infini-point has a maximum range, the sniper is well outside of that range, therefore you still have to get a warp-in on the sniper, this requires some effort, and generally more than 1 person. If the siper is anywhere near worth his salt, he won't let this happen. There is no need for a sniper who's paying attention, and doesn't use only 1 snipe-point to use a WCS as a crutch. I still say there is no need to change it back. -Zoltar This is what happens when people can fit stabs without penalties. You can't see the fits properly, but (if memory serves me) he would put 4 mags and 3 stabs on that thing and rip people apart from 200+km with that thing. Then send an alt in after an hour or so to scoop the dozens of wrecks left behind. He was not the only one like this. Stabs were nerfed because of this. If you think this is bad, imagine the alpha of a sniper Maelstrom that cannot be tackled and what that would do to low sec choke points.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.04.01 00:34:00 - [26] To get a warp in on a sniper ship is pretty easy... its called having someone in your fleet with probes right ontop of you, its a commonly used tactic. If you read backwards you will notice I say either remove/replace or adjust the nerf. The main issue I see is that they are pretty useless when you come up against more than 1 interceptor... 2 scramblers and you're ruined. To the person who claims to have never been tackled by multiple drakes... Play the game and you will be. I don't know why you don't seem to get the point that it takes maybe 2 ships to get a point on you, 2 interceptors with stupidly fast lock times and you're done for. Effectively at the moment WCS are only viable if you have a full rack on the low slots to get out 5/6+ to be on the safe side. However if you make the comparison with say Ewar and how easily that can be countered, you can double the difficulty with ECCM. Yet WCS don't double are even come close. You run 2 x ECCM II's and you are pretty much safe from all but a rare jam. Its not that you're "turning off the PvP aspect", If we are looking at a low sec point of view, the vast amounts of "PvP" I have seen in low sec are basically someone sitting on a gate smartbombing for 3/4 hours. 0.0 is a different with the allowance of bubbles as well as wormholes. In the end WCS need a little boost or at least a reduction on the nerf. How can I have an opinion on something when I wasn't playing/around when it happened... Simples... Its called reading. How do you have an opinion on any event in history? You read and research and then in your mind you generate an opinion from various point you pick up on.
Lykouleon Trust Doesn't Rust Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.04.01 04:26:00 - [27] Originally by: Delenne Sheridan In real life Last i checked, EVE was a video game Also, if you can't figure out how to avoid PVP with the current mechanics, HKO is waiting for you to resub. Quote: CCP Mindstar > Sorry - I've completely messed all that up. lets try again

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