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Wouldnt it be cool, if big ships would be armed like big ships?

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Captain Futur3	Posted - 2010.03.29 13:47:00 - [1] Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 29/03/2010 13:50:53 Really, when i look at real world military ships like frigates, cruisers or even bigger classes, Eve online ships have one very big disadvantage that makes them feel very unrealistic in point of functionality. I dont speak about scifi things like their optics or how fast they can travel. I mean their weapon numbers and classes. When i see a well fitted battleship in Eve online, i see all the time, the same. One ship where ONE single (MAYBE two) weapon class is mounted. In real life, big ships have a complete set of different weapons mounted like flakk cannons, cannons for short range, long range and missiles. There is nearly not a single ship out there, that has ONLY flakk or only 120mm cannons mounted. Whoever dont believes me can have a look at wiki battleships and see what i mean. "But this is a game and we need the rock paper scissor balance!" Yes, i know! And i dont want to remove it. Its just that it would be way cooler if bigger ships would have a new set of autoweapon slots for sub weapons. These weapons shouldnt do much damage at all, but they should shoot, make the ships look better and the fights way cooler. You shouldnt even be able to target with these guns. They should auto target everything that is an enemy as soon as you activate them. I know that there were several threads after the dominion trailer that capital ships dont have autocannons mounted and i think this would be a very cool idea. But i think it should not only start at the capital size, but also way earlier. You must know that on a battleship, there are several hundred of people on board and therefore i doubt that any human beeing would let them fly with only weapons against ONE kind of targets at a specific range. The number of autoweapon slots should sure be limited by ship size: - cruiser 2 (max) - battlecruiser 4 (max) - battleship 6 (max) - carrier/capital 12 (max) - titan 16 (max) The autoweapon slots should also not be able to mount the same weapon all the time. So a battleship for example should have 4 slots for light weapons and 2 slots for medium or so. I make a ship example to show you what i mean and that you see, that it can be tweaked to the level that it still is very balanced: megathron (actually): - it has 8 high slots for 7 large weapon systems with ship bonuses. meagthron after my idea (just an example): - 8 high slots for 7 large weapon systems with ship bonuses. - 2 medium slots that can ONLY be mounted with medium weapons. Bonus of -50% range, and -50% damage for all weapons (no ship bonus) - 4 light slots that can ONLY be mounted with small weapons. Option: 2 for guns, 2 for missiles. Bonus of -50% range and -50% damage for all weapons (no ship bonus) the weapons sure need ammo, pg and cpu. This is what i would LOVE to see in the near future for all ships. Mostly because in battles you wouldnt see all weapons target the same object all the time in a big fleet fight and that not all ships are mounted with just one kind of weapons anymore. Sure the main function of all ships will stay the same. Two points before you replay: 1. this needs a better balancing than in my example! 2. dont talk about lag, even if this would increase lag a little bit, this idea is made for AFTER the lag fix, so performance should be way better than now! Discuss.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2010.03.29 13:52:00 - [2] Warily seconded.
AndrewBot88	Posted - 2010.03.29 13:52:00 - [3] Neat idea, i think it would make the game a lot cooler.
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.03.29 13:57:00 - [4] Let me save you some time and tell you what happens: All "mini weapons need PG, CPU, and AMMO". Ok, so about 90% of the ships will need to have said PG and CPU adjusted to allow for more fitting space, as many of them are extremely tight in one department or another with the optimal combat loadout. So, what happens in the end, is people ignore the mini autofire nontargetable weapons, and use the extra PG and CPU to shoe horn crap previously not able to fit onto these ships, and making super fits. Also, this belongs in another section, a section about ships, and fittings, and new ideas, if ONLY WE HAD SUCH A SECTION.
El Mandinga	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:01:00 - [5] Edited by: El Mandinga on 29/03/2010 14:02:50 Originally by: Captain Futur3 I mean their weapon numbers and classes. When i see a well fitted battleship in Eve online, i see all the time, the same. One ship where ONE single (MAYBE two) weapon class is mounted. In real life, big ships have a complete set of different weapons mounted like flakk cannons, cannons for short range, long range and missiles. There is nearly not a single ship out there, that has ONLY flakk or only 120mm cannons mounted. Whoever dont believes me can have a look at wiki battleships and see what i mean. Discuss. Then fit more variety, it's already there. BS's have plenty of turrets for it. Just fit a different type of gun to each. Nothing is stopping you, it just makes more sense for us to carry guns which only use 1 type of ammo and similar optimals. edit: to add quote
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:01:00 - [6] Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 29/03/2010 14:03:39 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 29/03/2010 14:02:47 Originally by: Grath Telkin Let me save you some time and tell you what happens: All "mini weapons need PG, CPU, and AMMO". Ok, so about 90% of the ships will need to have said PG and CPU adjusted to allow for more fitting space, as many of them are extremely tight in one department or another with the optimal combat loadout. So, what happens in the end, is people ignore the mini autofire nontargetable weapons, and use the extra PG and CPU to shoe horn crap previously not able to fit onto these ships, and making super fits. Also, this belongs in another section, a section about ships, and fittings, and new ideas, if ONLY WE HAD SUCH A SECTION. maybe you are right.. cpu and pg should maybe not be used. But ammo is good i think. Oh yeah.. wrong section Originally by: El Mandinga Then fit more variety, it's already there. BS's have plenty of turrets for it. Just fit a different type of gun to each. Nothing is stopping you, it just makes more sense for us to carry guns which only use 1 type of ammo and similar optimals. The game engine IS stopping me. Which idiot would fit a small turret on a battleship? Do you? Tell me your result when next time, you fly with such a ship in a pvp fight against a good player...
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:07:00 - [7] Game balance says 'No'. CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Sokratesz Game balance says 'No'. me says: explain and prove it.
El Mandinga	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:08:00 - [9] You winge you want to fit many different types of guns to be more 'real world' with ocean going battleships. The option is there if you are stupid enough to want to make it more 'realistic'.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Grath Telkin Also, this belongs in another section, a section about ships, and fittings, and new ideas, if ONLY WE HAD SUCH A SECTION. Also, it's not like this crap hasn't been suggested a few bazillion times before..

Captain Futur3	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:13:00 - [11] go over your horizon please. Its always in all games the same that people dont try to think outside of the world given by the developers. If the devs would have integrated several weapon slots by the start of Eve online like i suggested, and i would now say "please make all ships have only one weapon slot size" like it is now you would post other arguements against my idea. I even think that you would put the word "realism" in these arguements...
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Captain Futur3 Originally by: Sokratesz Game balance says 'No'. me says: explain and prove it. It would make small ships obsolete. The whole trick to EVE is that it attempts (and achieves, for the most part) that bigger isn't always better, NOT being linear in shipsize/effectiveness os what makes EVE EVE and changing that would have a severe negative impact on gameplay. So, no. Just like RL battlehsips of old and carriers these days; if you want protection from smaller threats make use of the fleet you're in. Specialised smaller ships taking care of problems the big guy isn't meant for. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Captain Futur3 Originally by: Sokratesz Game balance says 'No'. me says: explain and prove it. There was a big ship once that was very good against small ships. Then they nerfed it. CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:23:00 - [14] Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 29/03/2010 14:25:36 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 29/03/2010 14:23:50 Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Captain Futur3 Originally by: Sokratesz Game balance says 'No'. me says: explain and prove it. It would make small ships obsolete. The whole trick to EVE is that it attempts (and achieves, for the most part) that bigger isn't always better, NOT being linear in shipsize/effectiveness os what makes EVE EVE and changing that would have a severe negative impact on gameplay. So, no. Just like RL battlehsips of old and carriers these days; if you want protection from smaller threats make use of the fleet you're in. Specialised smaller ships taking care of problems the big guy isn't meant for. I explicitely said that these weapons shall NOT do much damage. I know a lot about balancing because i am a modder of one of the best mods for a RTS game with several hundred units and this mod changes the standard game so that a lot more units are usefull in the game and i sure did not just put one kind of weapon on the units just because this is the simplest way to do it. A lot of people didnt believed me that its possible before i did that exactly like its happening here... now my mod is one (maybe the best) of the most played mods for that game.
Dragonmede	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:29:00 - [15] Why re-invent the wheel? Cruisers, Battle cruisers, and Battleships already have small, medium, and even large "auto targeting secondary weapons" Their called "Drones"
Jenkins Sebastian	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Captain Futur3 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 29/03/2010 14:25:36 Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 29/03/2010 14:23:50 Originally by: Marko Riva Originally by: Captain Futur3 Originally by: Sokratesz Game balance says 'No'. me says: explain and prove it. It would make small ships obsolete. The whole trick to EVE is that it attempts (and achieves, for the most part) that bigger isn't always better, NOT being linear in shipsize/effectiveness os what makes EVE EVE and changing that would have a severe negative impact on gameplay. So, no. Just like RL battlehsips of old and carriers these days; if you want protection from smaller threats make use of the fleet you're in. Specialised smaller ships taking care of problems the big guy isn't meant for. I explicitely said that these weapons shall NOT do much damage. I know a lot about balancing because i am a modder of one of the best mods for a RTS game with several hundred units and this mod changes the standard game so that a lot more units are usefull in the game and i sure did not just put one kind of weapon on the units just because this is the simplest way to do it. A lot of people didnt believed me that its possible before i did that exactly like its happening here... now my mod is one (maybe the best) of the most played mods for that game. So... if they don't do much damage, or not enough damage to make small ships obsolete, then what's the point of having them?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:32:00 - [17] Edited by: Akita T on 29/03/2010 14:34:51 Let me put it this way... they put weapon grouping in so that they could "reduce lag". Oh, and before that, they reduced drone RoF from 2 to 4 sec and doubled volley damage for pretty much the same reasons. Yeah, and longer before that, they switched some RoF bonuses into damage bonuses for smaller ships again for similar reasons. What makes you think they'd go the exact opposite way now ? You want the exact opposite... for what seems to be almost cosmetic reasons ?!? Because, you know, you said you want them "balanced" (i.e. pre-nerfed) in such a way as to not alter the existing game balance noticeably... so... Chance of this idea happening ? Next to none. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Swalesey Prosperity Through Violence	Posted - 2010.03.29 14:51:00 - [18] The basis of eve's no one beats all weapons system is the difference in the sizes of the ships and what they are good at doing. It is completely right that battleships have large weapons not capable of hitting smaller ships, it makes for more diversity in what ships are flown. if battleships became good at shooting large,medium and small ships, hten there would be npo need to fly any other size of ship thatn a battleship. Don't forget of course that drones are your support against smaller ships. you do have the oportunity to fit retrospective weapons sizes on any ship. drop a large weapon for a smaller one if you want, just don't ask to have extra to make battleships a win all vessel. next time you get attacked by a friggate send 5x warrior 2 their way, see how they like that :) cou[pled with battleship sized energy neuts and webs/scrams your not talking impossibilities here.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.03.29 15:11:00 - [19] I. It's Already Implemented There's nothing preventing you from mounting smaller guns instead of big guns. A Raven could mount 4x cruise missile launchers and 2x heavy missile launchers. Plus , we already have "dual" weapons (such as dual 250s) that are two medium guns combined to make a large gun. II. Piggy back on existing game mechanics A better/easier way to implement secondary batteries would be to double up single guns (which would just be a variation of the grouping code.) The secondary guns would use drone bandwidth instead of gun/missile slots. For example, a Raven could mount a Dual Cruise Launcher. It would take up one high slot but still count as two missile slots, would require the same grid/cpu as two Cruise Launchers, and would do the damage of two Cruise Missiles (and require two missiles per shot.) In other words it would act like a group of two missile launchers. This would free up high slots for small secondary mounts such as standard or assault missile launchers allowing the Raven to fire standard missiles at frigates. In order to balance this out, you would use drone bandwidth to mount the secondary guns/launchers. Small mounts would use 10 Mbits of bandwith whereas medium mounts would use 25 Mbits of bandwidth. This would a) remove lag increasing drones, b) require less skills (no need to learn T2 drone skills) and c) would require active target selection by the user (drones auto-target, secondary weapons would not) d) drones could not be used with secondary batteries, and e) you could lose a lot of flexibility by not using drones. End result, the Raven's eight high slots, 6 missile/4 gun fitting, 75 Mbit drone bandwidth could look like: - Dual Cruise Launcher - Dual Cruise Launcher - Dual Cruise Launcher - Dual 350 rail gun - Dual 350 rail gun - Assault Missile Launcher Or Heavy Missile Launcher (25 Mbit bandwith) - Assault Missile Launcher Or Heavy Missile Launcher (25 Mbit bandwith) - Assault Missile Launcher Or Heavy Missile Launcher (25 Mbit bandwith) Obviously, this would require a lot of play-testing due to the potential firepower increase (the extra 350s and either the HML's increased firepower against cruisers or the AML's ability to potentially kill faster than drones.) III. T3 Guns Another option is T3 guns that can dial down their damage for smaller targets. Large missile launchers can fire smaller missiles (fire a standard missile from a cruise launcher.) Guns can use scatter shot or wide laser beams to hit smaller targets. (The guns would still have lousy tracking but firing a shotgun/wide-beam laser would compensate for it.) The downsides would be: having to carry extra (smaller) ammo and RoF and/or cap usage would still be the same even when using the smaller ammo. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Joe Skellington Minmatar JOKAS Industries	Posted - 2010.03.29 15:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Joe Skellington on 29/03/2010 15:16:59 I'll just use big guns and drones thanks.

Captain Futur3	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Swalesey test here Originally by: stoicfaux I. It's Already Implemented... test here I give up. Most people dont even read the first post or have forgotten what i wrote when they post what makes it impossible to discuss this at a serious level. Yeah and sure its implemented! Thats why i see ships with mixed weapon systems all day when i log in. I must have tomatoes on my eyes. btw. Balance has nothing to do with the possibility of a unit that can attack and hit all kind of targets or not, as long as its very bad at this compared to a unit that is designed for that specific operation. Actually, there is only one possibility in the game: specialisation for just a very small operation area. But thats not the point. The point is that actual fights look kinda unspectacular with just one weapon system. Never mind.. because this will never happen anyway its a waste of time to post here. Too much conservative thinking :(.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:14:00 - [22] Only if drones, frigates and cruisers get a significant hp buff. Mostly just drones though.
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:20:00 - [23] most of the gun types have the option of a pair of weapons one size class down. the way this is implemented is to make them a pathetic gun one size class larger. if they were actually changed to be considered as a pair of actual guns one size smaller they would be much more useful as well as providing the chance of running into a bs with the equivalent of 16 med guns on it once in a while. it's just profoundly wrong that an assault frigate has the chance of destroying a bs imho. unless you think the bismark lived in fear of being taken down by the RN's destroyers and light cruisers in a gun battle.
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:30:00 - [24] I think this is an awesome idea, and I've even thought of this a few dozen times myself but never brought it up on the forums cause I just knew that all the trolls would come out of the woodwork proclaiming the absolute perfection of the current system.
MaxxOmega Caldari Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:31:00 - [25] Edited by: MaxxOmega on 29/03/2010 16:32:59 Originally by: Captain Futur3 I give up. Most people dont even read the first post or have forgotten what i wrote when they post what makes it impossible to discuss this at a serious level. Yes, way too many luddites here... Quote: The point is that actual fights look kinda unspectacular with just one weapon system. Agreed... Quote: Never mind.. because this will never happen anyway its a waste of time to post here. Too much conservative thinking :(. Conservative? I'd call it close minded... Originally by: Neesa Corrinne I think this is an awesome idea, and I've even thought of this a few dozen times myself but never brought it up on the forums cause I just knew that all the trolls would come out of the woodwork proclaiming the absolute perfection of the current system. Some people live to be disagreeable. Especially in EVE...
Pesky LaRue Minmatar Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2010.03.29 16:44:00 - [26] I like this idea, subject to correct implementation and balance . [Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels]
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.03.29 17:20:00 - [27] 'Wouldn't it be cool' is no measure for balance. You can still fit small, medium and large guns on a battleship, it's just that you'd be raping your own DPS and bonuses. This is called balance. If you give larger ships more and more, power creep will set in and destroy the point of flying smaller ships. ___
Mar Lee An Army of None	Posted - 2010.03.29 17:27:00 - [28] Let me say it again, in case you missed it when all the commenters above brought it up: You already have what you asked for. It's called a drone bay. "You must know that on a battleship, there are several hundred of people on board and therefore i doubt that any human beeing[sic] would let them fly with only weapons against ONE kind of targets at a specific range." What you forget is that EVE battleships are ships of the line (Wikipedia). That article explains very well the logic of EVE ship design.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.03.29 17:29:00 - [29] If you want point defence for looks, let them rework smartbomb visual effects and name. /solved
Lord Helghast	Posted - 2010.03.29 17:32:00 - [30] u can fit multi sized weapons, fit 4 larges, 2 dual mediums, and 2 smart bombs, tada, you have your large, medium and flak



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