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GavinGoodrich
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.07 00:24:00 -
[1]
So you just got your first PVP battlecruiser or battleship. AWESOME \../ O \../
Hopefully, the following helps you out with how to fit it effectively within a fleet you usually fly with.
The mainstay of BC/BS fleets are two things: 'ze Tank and 'ze Gank. The goal is to squeeze as much out of both, or figure out how to get a glass cannon to have a little bit thicker glass...or find out the best way to hero-tank your bait ship (especially if you're a known FC and get primaried a lot  even if it wouldn't hurt a fly).
For the sake of simplicity, this guide's going to cover the tanking side.
Shield, or armor? Well, that's dictated by a few things:
---# of midslots
---# of lowslots,
---Ship bonuses that pertain to that ship (if any),
---Any RR ability you and your friends typically have (logistics/carrier/RR BS pilots...got any? Which kinds? More on that later).
Drakes and Ferox's (and thier t2 counterpart Command ships) get shield resist bonuses. They also get an abundance of midslots, and 2-3 rig slots (not to mention tank rigs for Battlecruisers are DIRT CHEAP nowadays). Shield tank mostly applies to mid slots (except things like the Damage control, power diagnostic, etc). Ships like this tank shields very very easily, often to awesome levels, and since they only have a handful of lowslots...this one's fairly obvious. Obvious to the point where ships like these are low on the primary list, due to thier massive tank, commonly. However, the lack of lowslots makes it a poor armor tanker, by comparison. It's doable...but not reccomended.
Then you have ships like the Myrmidon/Brutix/Hurricane, which don't have an extreme amount of either, but plenty of each.
Let's take the Brutix for example. 4 meds, 5 lows. It's so well-known for being a high-gank ship that it's typically primaried towards the top of the list.
Not exactly where you want to be, right? Want a little more tank on your glass cannon fit for full-gank? A shield extender and shield hardener of some sort, as well as shield resist rigs or extender rigs adds a lot of survivability. Or perhaps a DCU and PDU in conjunction with it? Leaves room for three damage mods, and buys you some buffer to stay on the field longer. Shield tanking typically keeps you agile...vs. bulky plates that slow you down when you're on the run, or trying to get into blaster range in a hurry.
It's flexible, as well. 5 low slots means you can put as much tank into your lows as you would have put into your mids! DCU, Plate, armor hardeners still leaves a little room for damage mods, and frees up valuable midslots for things like point/scram, MWD, ECCM, misc. mods, etc etc.
Then you have ships that specialize in armor tanking. Anything with 5+ lowslots is considered at least a 1/2 decent armor tanker...because you still want room for damage mods/nanos/whatever else you feel like.
The prophecy is the armor equivalent of the Drake/Ferox. 6 lowslots, and armor resist bonuses. Plenty of room for extra resists, plates, damage controls, what have-you. With only 3 midslots, it barely meets the prereqs of Point/scram, MWD needed in most fleets.
Lastly on the battlecruiser side is any RR ability you have. Any logistics pilots in your fleet? Oneiros'/Guardians? Basilisks/Scimitars? Remote-rep battleships? Maybe....a carrier or two? Which do you have?
Let's say you have a blaster Brutix, and you're flying with a fleet of drakes with two Scimitars--You can armor tank 'ze Brute, sure...but when you have ships that specialize in GREAT shield repair...doesn't it make more sense to take a shield buffer/resists this time around? Armor tanking with shield reppers available is like hopping on one foot. Not reccomended
Planning a hotdrop? Which bonuses does said carrier get? Is it a good shield AND armor repper? Just shields or armor? Try to find out before you leave, and tank appropriately! 
Battleships next...after the break.
\o |
Julian Darklight
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Posted - 2010.04.07 00:45:00 -
[2]
Nice post. :D i already know all this but i still likeed readin it. lol an ur right about the ferox havin a massive tank. i squeeze an easy 62k efh with over 68% resists on everythin. an still get a **** load of dps with my blasters. bout to get into the gallente BCs. thanks for the advice on those
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GavinGoodrich
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.07 01:09:00 -
[3]
Battleships.
Bigger, tougher, hits harder. Typically a lot slower (♥ Machariels), and one of the major workhorse ships in PVP.
One of the main advantages of these ships over BC's is the ability to fit remote repair, AND keep the efficient Tank n' Gank principle. You can do it on BC's...but you lose either gank or tank to do it, and generally isn't practiced much.
And usually there's an extra couple of slots in random spots for more fitting options.
Like mentioned before:
You have ships that tank shield very well (Rokh/Navy Scorpion are great examples, with resist bonuses to shields), and some that tank armor well (Abaddon, pretty much any ship with 7-8 low slots) The same principles apply that we talked about with battlecruisers...with one major difference: keeping your buddies alive.
With battlecruisers...most of your attention goes to taking out the opposition. If you run low on tank...you typically try to get out, or go down in a blaze of glory.
This next part pertains to high slots on Battleships. Weapons, Neuts, and Remote Repair, in particular.
With RR BS's...more of your attention is directed to the Broadcast Window and Watch List. As the vast majority of PVP'ers don't have fleet mates on their overview...this is how you see who needs help--lock them--repair them.
When you get into bigger fights, bigger fleets--having a substantial buffer is crucial to getting repaired in time. Having 20-30k shields or armor in a fight against big fights buys the time for your people to lock you, keep you alive, vs. a mere 10-15k. Resists are KING in fights...as higher resists means a better QUALITY tank (less actual repairs required to tank the same amount of damage), while buffer buys you time to GET those quality reps.
Key thing to remember: The bigger the brawl, the more buffer you need, vs. resists. The smaller the fight, the more you can use resists over buffer safely.
Buffer=Reaction time, while Resists=Quality tank. Cool? Cool.
Eventually...when fights get so huge...remote reps typically won't save you. Ships will evaporate quickly. Ask your FC if it's ok to let the RR go, and fit more gank/neuts/etc instead...and focus on killing before being killed. When in doubt, ask the FC.
Other things in play: Are friendly logistics/Capitals in play? Are hostile capitals in play? Do you have a triage carrier backing you up? Do you need neut power for hostile capitals (because without capacitor, capitals can't do much)? All questions you need to ask before you decide if you need a full rack of weapons, Remote repair, neuts, or some combination of that.
Again...when in doubt...ask the FC.
Lastly, a word about why most Battleships have armor tanks these days: For brawling RR battleships...they're typically fit for close/midrange DPS...and need to be able to keep thier targets TACKLED.
---If you're in a fleet that is mostly battleships, then the battleships need to tackle too, right? -1 midslot for tank.
---A battleship without a MWD is a dead battleship...so -1 midslot for tank.
---Remote rep and Hybrids/Lasers use cap...and you're typically pouring it on hard with both mid-fight. To stay cap-stable, you need at least one Heavy cap injector. -1 midslot for tank.
---At present time...the fitting requirement for large shieldreps on anything but logistics is higher than armor reps...mainly on CPU. It's often not efficient to fit shieldreps over armor reps when you're squeezing max gank out of your battleship.
At best, you might have 2-3 midslots for tank left...at worst you have NO midslots for tank available. Common sense then dictates--tank for armor. It's not a roleplay standing that makes people tank armor(ok...maybe a little ) ...it's the mechanics of the game at the time of this post. It's the best way to do it, in order to do all of the above. A sniper battleship's tank is usually it's alignment out.
Hope this helped out. Good hunting.
\o |
inVictu5
Globo Gym Purple Cobras
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Posted - 2010.04.07 01:44:00 -
[4]
so much text.. dont put too much thought into it.. Either or is good depending on the ship. But if I had to choose I would go with armor tanking. Why, resist skills apply to the main armor mod "adaptive nano's". But shield resist skills only apply to the passive hardeners, which arnt invul fields. Armor tank you will have plates, adaptive nano's, dc2, maybe hardeners, and reps with cap booster. Shield is same, eats more cap, and you lose ewar, prop, and cap booster slots.
Here at Globo Gym were better than you! And we know it |
Ynnus D
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Posted - 2010.04.07 04:06:00 -
[5]
Everything said here is really good. One other note I'd like to bring up is speed. I fly mostly amarr ships which tend to be heavily armor tanked but since I started caldari I also have decent shield skills. However I've noticed that in larger fights anything Battlecruiser and lower doesn't last for more than a few seconds once called primary. This is where speed comes into play. With armor tanks it tanks A LOT longer to align and warp out if things get to hairy where as with shield its easier to warp out and come back to the fight in a timely manner. This also makes getting though warp disruption bubbles easier for you null sec pvpers.
However shield tanks also suffer penalties in sig radius so everything is more likely to hit you for more dmg.
All in all its more or less up to the pilot in what style he/she is looking for.
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BacardiDesire
Caldari
The 8th Order
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Posted - 2010.04.07 07:51:00 -
[6]
I did had a good raven blob rr shield fit, which seemed pretty good :p just like and other bs rr gang, it get's better with logi's :)
fake edit: i posted in a gavin thread :D o/
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Crazy dutch mofo |
Aralieus
Amarr
Rising Devils
Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2010.04.07 16:04:00 -
[7]
Dood...do you not know how to spell 'Harbinger'? Missed a awesome ship there, other than that some pretty solid info here 
Fortune favors the bold!!! |
Birdman Ravo
Legion of The Birds
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Posted - 2010.04.08 14:23:00 -
[8]
What's this I read about neuting a capital?
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Boss Lemming
Gallente
BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION.
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.04.08 15:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Boss Lemming on 08/04/2010 15:56:14
 Originally by: Birdman Ravo
What's this I read about neuting a capital?
When you've got less than 15 people, having a couple of neut battleships is better for breaking lone* capital tanks than straight up gank.
edit: I've never been involved in fighting large numbers of capitals, but I don't think this works so well when you scale above two or three carriers.
Originally by: Alchemist's Alt
I stopped mining because you mean pirates kept blowing me up.[...] now I am doing all the blowing up. Shadow
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2010.04.09 15:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: BacardiDesire
I did had a good raven blob rr shield fit
No you didn't.
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.04.09 17:03:00 -
[11]
better resists = better buffer too. It is better to have good resists and reasonable amount of hitpoints than just lot of hitpoints or just lot of resists.
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GavinGoodrich
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.09 19:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
better resists = better buffer too. It is better to have good resists and reasonable amount of hitpoints than just lot of hitpoints or just lot of resists.
Agreed. I mentioned it about 1/2way through...but the wall'o'text isn't formatted very well so it's easy to skip over it :D
\o |
Shinda Tenshi
Minmatar
The Dead Pod Society
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 15:23:00 -
[13]
there is also another pretty important thingie..train your skills to lvl 5 imho sometimes a bc with its skill at lvl 5 is better than a bs in lvl 3 (or even 4 sometimes)
pretty nice post though;)
War...
War never changes...
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Bablu Hassan
Minmatar
Steel Soldier's
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 00:48:00 -
[14]
14th! \o/
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Grayclay
Caldari
Van Uber.
Order of the Rising Sun
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Posted - 2010.04.11 18:58:00 -
[15]
I wish I could find more guides like this that deal with the actual reality of playing the game vs. statistical comparison. Thanks from a perpetual noob =)
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Bablu Hassan
Minmatar
Steel Soldier's
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 23:45:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Bablu Hassan on 11/04/2010 23:45:44
Originally by: Jotobar
Originally by: BacardiDesire
I did had a good raven blob rr shield fit
No you didn't.
yes he did fool. The raven can do 1000+ dps with 6 highs and no drones, 120k ehp and loads of cap regen and of leftover pg.
I used to rock this bs on test server and own every single bs I ever ran into in 1v1 including marauders (use neut in high and ECM drones). Weakness is obviously mega sig dps a little slow. Swap neut for rr and u have an awesome rr bs (obviously were talking shield rr which is mediocre)
damned caldari haters.....
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