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So, I lost my first ship....

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Jaffster	Posted - 2010.04.07 09:38:00 - [1] Hello everyone, Complete new player here. Me and a friend spent many years on the 'forbidden to talk about MMO' and decided that a change was in order, somewhere with people a little more mature. We both started on the weekend. Now, we've both just been doing missions constantly and are both on the epic arc quests, last night decided to go and see what PVP was like. Took a trip to 0.4 space near to the Sisters of Eve place together, making sure that our ships were insured and clones up to date etc (I read alot in work). I was in my Merlin with shield booster, afterburner, 2 rocket launchers and 2 neutron blasters. Friend in a fitted Cormorant. Around 2 minutes after landing we were approached by one ship (google shows that it was a frigate). He killed us both. He was webbed, warp scrambled and we were both unloading our full arsenals onto him yet his shields held and he managed to destroy us both? Is this simply a case of Tech1 weapons vs Tech2? I have done some extensive reading into PvP and have a basic understanding... but just couldn't understand how we lost? Be gentle, we're both big girlie noobs Cheers
dtyk	Posted - 2010.04.07 10:04:00 - [2] Originally by: Jaffster Hello everyone, Complete new player here. Me and a friend spent many years on the 'forbidden to talk about MMO' and decided that a change was in order, somewhere with people a little more mature. We both started on the weekend. Now, we've both just been doing missions constantly and are both on the epic arc quests, last night decided to go and see what PVP was like. Took a trip to 0.4 space near to the Sisters of Eve place together, making sure that our ships were insured and clones up to date etc (I read alot in work). I was in my Merlin with shield booster, afterburner, 2 rocket launchers and 2 neutron blasters. Friend in a fitted Cormorant. Around 2 minutes after landing we were approached by one ship (google shows that it was a frigate). He killed us both. He was webbed, warp scrambled and we were both unloading our full arsenals onto him yet his shields held and he managed to destroy us both? Is this simply a case of Tech1 weapons vs Tech2? I have done some extensive reading into PvP and have a basic understanding... but just couldn't understand how we lost? Be gentle, we're both big girlie noobs Cheers What ship exactly was it that destroyed you? How, exactly, did the fight go? Since you were in low sec, which side shot first, and where in the system did the fight happen? In low sec, there are still sentry guns at gates and stations that will fire on an illegal aggressor, which even though tankable in battlecruisers, t2 cruisers and up, make short work of frigates and destroyers. It's possible that you were killed by the sentry guns. Or he could have been in a ship that was fitted in a way that allowed it to stay out of your optimal range even when webbed and to shoot you from range. While two newbies in t1 things can kill a more experienced player in a t2 frigate (not just t2 fitted, but possibly including t2 hull too), it's in no way a sure kill.
Jaffster	Posted - 2010.04.07 10:12:00 - [3] Edited by: Jaffster on 07/04/2010 10:12:25 Edited by: Jaffster on 07/04/2010 10:11:53 Originally by: dtyk What ship exactly was it that destroyed you? How, exactly, did the fight go? Since you were in low sec, which side shot first, and where in the system did the fight happen? In low sec, there are still sentry guns at gates and stations that will fire on an illegal aggressor, which even though tankable in battlecruisers, t2 cruisers and up, make short work of frigates and destroyers. It's possible that you were killed by the sentry guns. Or he could have been in a ship that was fitted in a way that allowed it to stay out of your optimal range even when webbed and to shoot you from range. While two newbies in t1 things can kill a more experienced player in a t2 frigate (not just t2 fitted, but possibly including t2 hull too), it's in no way a sure kill. Hey, I alt+tabbed to google the type of his ship shortly after the fight and it said that it was a frigate, but can't remember the name of it. My friend got DC'ed so I popped to the nearest station to pick up ammo - he came back on and I used the fleet 'Warp to location', as I came out of warp he was just being engaged. I locked on and orbited at 2,000m and had 2 x Neutron blaster and 2 Rocket launchers hitting him. I think my friend was fitted with 7 x railguns and was at around 10-15km. He took out my friend first, didn't take too long to be honest. I became his next target, webbed, scrambled and destroyed in maybe 20 seconds or so? We got through his shields and around half of his armor.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.04.07 10:26:00 - [4] Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 07/04/2010 10:30:45 Well hell. If you got half way through his armor you guys didn't do half bad. There's a ton of skills in this game that can improve your ability to kill or stay alive. A veteran player should be able to kill two noobs. If you'd both been in the fight the whole time you might have got him. All you need to do - is to get more ships and keep getting blown up some more. Pay attention each time to what happens and try not to let it happen again. Notice how he webbed you? That makes you easier to hit. Look at what they do to you - then try and do that to them the next time. You really need to learn the ship types though - as some ships you simply want to run away from if you know they can beat you. Oh - and read the Kill Mail you got. It will tell you what ship he had and who he was. You can then use People and Places to look up his character and see how old it is. That's not always a good indicator as it could be a new character for an old player but it can give you a rough idea of how skilled that character might have been. A character that is two years old is going to probably have a lot more skills than a character that is two months old. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
knifee Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2010.04.07 10:47:00 - [5] He (Halvati) was flying a rifter. You were flying an ok fit merlin, but your friend was flying a pretty baddly fitted catalyst. 2 150mm rail 1 75mm rail 1 probe launcher 1 mining laser 1 missile launcher He also had Civilian shield booster and a ship scanner fitted. Really your friend needs to refocus his fitting, I would read though the forums and other places, Battle clinic for example, and try some new fittings out.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.04.07 12:21:00 - [6] I'd suggest downloadoding EVEmon for skill planning and browsing through all the different skills and EVEfitter for testing diffrent ships and fittings. As for a rifter, it's one the most versatile T1 frigates you can find in this game and can boost a hefty tank or a god like firepower (for T1 frigate) or a mix of both. Most other T1 frigates either go for a gank or tank but not both despite how you fit them.
My Postman	Posted - 2010.04.07 13:03:00 - [7] Most good advices already given. Fit your ships properly, this is essential in pve and even more in pvp. Skill up your tanking skills to bring up your effective hitpoints (the more damage you can tank) and your gunnery skills (the more damage you can deal). Make a list of all ships in eve (don¦t know if something is yet existing somewhere) and learn. You will find out that there are ships you can¦t engage without losing yours. Than RUN. A Rifter can be done easiely in a Merlin and a Catalyst, in fact a Catalyst can solo him. Last hint, don¦t use the word "quest" for "mission" or everybody will know, what "forbidden" MMO you mean. Have fun and welcome to eve.
Jaffster	Posted - 2010.04.07 14:35:00 - [8] Wow, thanks for the replies guys. I'm in work so can't see my Eve mail, I'll take a look when I get home. I'd done some reading on fitting the Merlin properly and to be honest this has given me a good learning experience, I've bought another and made some changes to how it's fitted. I've also pointed my friend here (he aint much of a forum person). I'm coming to the realisation that skills are everything in this game, currently left my Merlin in the hangar until I can equip it with the Tech2 weapons (about 10 hours left on the skill). Really appreciating the constructive comments, I got so used to posting on a 'Forbidden MMO's' forum that I forgot that there's people on the internet who are actually alright! Originally by: knifee He (Halvati) was flying a rifter. You were flying an ok fit merlin, but your friend was flying a pretty baddly fitted catalyst. 2 150mm rail 1 75mm rail 1 probe launcher 1 mining laser 1 missile launcher He also had Civilian shield booster and a ship scanner fitted. Really your friend needs to refocus his fitting, I would read though the forums and other places, Battle clinic for example, and try some new fittings out. How on earth did you get that info?
Culmen Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.04.07 14:56:00 - [9] Edited by: Culmen on 07/04/2010 15:00:26 Edited by: Culmen on 07/04/2010 14:57:37 Originally by: Jaffster How on earth did you get that info? Most likely pulled it off a killboard. Almost every PVP post their killmails in a publically viewable place for e-peen enhancement purposes. Here's your entry on battleclinic. Just a small tip tough, the inertia stabalizer is probably not a good module to fit for that setup. An over drive or nanofiber would be better. Otherwise it's a serviceable setup. and further more why do i even need a sig?
knifee Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2010.04.07 15:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Jaffster I'm coming to the realisation that skills are everything in this game The Char. that killed you, is only 2months old, though maybe more experienced. I wont argue with you that SPs are important in eve, but experience and knowledge are more important. If you can afford to lose more Merlins, then i would recomend buying more, trying some different fits (i'm a fan of the medium shield extender fits myself) and trying again. There is a good chance that you will lose them all, but learning the basics, and learning not to care quite so much about dieing is better done early and in a frig. Originally by: Jaffster How on earth did you get that info? I just looked it up on Battle clinic as mentioned above.
Dian'h Might Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated	Posted - 2010.04.07 16:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Jaffster I'm coming to the realisation that skills are everything in this game Definitely not. I once made a rifter alt with only 2 weeks of training and went on a lowsec killing spree, I even nailed some year+ old characters (including one in a drone cruiser). It was financed almost entirely by loot from pvp kills and social engineering donations out of people in the new players help channel. A lot of pvp just comes down to picking your fights, which you can do best by knowing a lot about as many ships and fittings as possible. If you know your ship + fit has a good chance to kill the other guys ship + fit in a certain set of circumstances, then you make those circumstances happen and you engage. The catch is that you don't usually know the other guys fit, which is where knowledge of common ship fittings comes into play. More concrete example: For simplicities sake lets assume 2 kinds of fits for catalysts flown in lowsec, something with mixed railguns similar to what your friend flew (lets assume 90% of them are lolfit like that). Or an actual pvp fit with blasters, web/scram, and an armor tank (We'll assume the remaining 10% are like this). So if I'm in a close range frigate, right off the bat I know I have a 90% chance that a solo guy in a catalyst is fitted terribly, I can get him tackled and orbit in close for the kill. However, if the guy was one of those 10% that fit it right and knows what he's doing, he would just wait for me to close into range, web+scram, and I'd be dead in about 9 seconds. While in reality the decision process is much more complex, the basic idea is still sound. Find a target with your directional scanner, mentally go through the generic fits you think he might be using and decide which ones you can kill, estimate your chances of success and go for it if they look good.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.04.07 17:57:00 - [12] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 07/04/2010 17:58:20 Originally by: Jaffster I'm coming to the realisation that skills are everything in this game, currently left my Merlin in the hangar until I can equip it with the Tech2 weapons (about 10 hours left on the skill). I've been playing over a year now, and I can't use any T2 weapons yet. Skills help, but they aren't an I-WIN button by any means. Quote: Really appreciating the constructive comments, I got so used to posting on a 'Forbidden MMO's' forum that I forgot that there's people on the internet who are actually alright! We have our share of obnoxious forum trolls too. However, EVE is such a complex game that nobody knows everything, and those that do are delusional. Everybody ends-up asking a question now and then; heck even Dr. Caymus has posted a question here, and he's been around longer than most. There is no shame in asking questions about stuff in EVE.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.07 18:21:00 - [13] Edited by: Zartrader on 07/04/2010 18:24:19 Actually SP's are not everything. An experienced player can beat an average player no matter what the SP's. Please do not assume SP's are like level's. They certainly help but you can lose a fight before you even start quite easily. You're two ships against one Frigate could have got him even if he had Tech 2 (in theory) especially as Destroyers are designed as frigate killers, a lot of the fun in this game is developing personal game skills and learning it. I suspect the player looked at you're profile and took the risk you were new and not alts of experienced players. He knew a lot about you and you ships before you even started:) EDIT: By the way I came from the 'forbidden game' and I was hard core there. That's equivalent to being casual in EVE, stick it out though and you will love it. The fact you want to learn is all that matters, the rest will come with time. I always think of my PVP ships as 'temporarily owned' so never get stressed when I lose one which will happen often
Taross Caldari People with Guns Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.04.07 18:39:00 - [14] Yeah, one of the BEST ways to improve is asking the guy that just beat ya... Start by typing "GF!"(meaning "Good Fight") in local, then asking if he has the time to tell you what the fight looked like from his perspective, and what you could've done better. Most will answer. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.04.07 19:11:00 - [15] There's a lot to fighting another player. You've got to have a decent skill set. You've got to have enough experience to know what to do You've got to have enough practice at doing what you know to do - in order to get it done. As an extreme example from another game ... At one point in time (I don't do this any more) I played Planetside about 4 hours a night during the week and about 10 hours a day on weekends. When we had Friday off (every other week) I played 30 hours a weekend and if we had a holiday Thursday or Monday - I played 40 hours a weekend. That was AT LEAST 40 hours ... What I found, was that after having played for over 10 hours the previous day - I would get in a zone. It's just like in sports. You're in a zone and you know what to do without thinking - and can execute it with precision. There was a tank in that game called the Vanguard with a really big, slow firing gun. That you had to lob the shot with as it had a slow, high arching trajectory. When I was in the zone - I could hit anything with that gun. I shot aircraft out of the sky routinely. I could one shot guys on distant hill tops. I could put my rounds right through the doors of bases and down their stair wells - while moving - from a good distance away. Then ... the week would come ... and I was "only" playing four hours a night - and my skill level feel off. I wasn't playing enough to maintain my proficiency. Then, the weekend would come, I'd get in my first 10 hour day - and I'd be back in the zone. Now ... most people aren't going to do that. I don't do that any more. But the point of all that is - that even for someone who is really playing a lot - you need to have a certain level of proficiency with what you are doing. You need to not only know what to do and how to do it - you have to execute. You have to get it done. All the knowledge in the world or past proficiency means nothing if you can't still make it happen. What that means to you ... and anyone else playing EVE is that you ... have to get in there and play. You may never be as good as some guy who lives to play EVE but the more you play the better you'll get. And - most people just can't maintain that uber level of proficiency forever. I couldn't. I got to where I couldn't play those kinds of hours any more - and my proficiency fell right off. You see that a lot in games. Some guy gets really good and he's really good for a while ... but then one day ... you notice you don't see him around as much ... and when he's there ... he isn't what he used to be ... and then ... he's gone. Probably got married ... or ... something like that ... shrug So - if you wanna PVP - just keep banging away at it - and the more you play - the better you'll get. You may never be some uber killer - but you'll be better than you were. I was never one of the PS uber killers ... I was just a lot better when I was in the zone ... than I was when I wasn't. Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
dpidcoe Gallente We Rat	Posted - 2010.04.07 21:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Zartrader also there is no harm is asking the player what you did wrong, most are happy to tell you, even the so called 'nasty' ones. QFT When I first started playing eve and tried out lowsec piracy, I think every one of my fights resulted in a nice conversation between everyone who was involved. I made quite a few friends that way, and pickup fleets with people who I'd previously killed or been killed by weren't uncommon (we'd go back to killing each other after the fleet was over with).
Jerid Verges Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand	Posted - 2010.04.08 05:47:00 - [17] Your first mistake was that you were using Rockets. Which are HORRIBLE in this game. Secondly. Your friend had a fail fitting, there is no way it would have been effective at anything other then being a meat shield for you. Civilian modules are worthless.
Taross Caldari People with Guns Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.04.08 07:05:00 - [18] Edited by: Taross on 08/04/2010 07:05:48 Oh, since noone in this thread has done so, lemme plug Agony Unleashed's pvp classes. these people EXSIST to teach small groups of new people to be effective in PvP. If I can believe my corpmates, their current seminar is filled-up, but there'll be another one soon enough. Very good for teaching you the basics. http://www.agony-unleashed.com/news.php Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
ISellThingz	Posted - 2010.04.08 09:02:00 - [19] Posting in an epic failfit cormorant thread?
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.08 16:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Zartrader on 08/04/2010 16:57:20 Originally by: ISellThingz Posting in an epic failfit cormorant thread? It's the new players help section and he is asking for help. Nothing wrong with that. It's easy to be patronising and arrogant when you have some game knowledge.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr Inadeptus Mechanicus	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:30:00 - [21] As soon as you undock you lose your ship. If you manage to dock again you get it back. Either way...gz on doing pvp for the first time!(that...thing....in that other game dont compare) now go spend a few milion on fully T1 fit merlins and go practise! you will get kills soon. ________________________________________________ Tau - Yeah we suck in close combat. To bad you will never get there. For the greater good!! Quote: "I love Australia! Our spiders have health bars.
zombiedeadhead Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:13:00 - [22] Originally by: ISellThingz Posting in an epic failfit cormorant thread? quoting epic fail comment. Look, you two guys got the right attitude, some good advice given by others in the thread, and if I was you I'd go for the Agony course, you will learn real in game skills, and realise that they are way more important than 'skill points'.
Abram Thrust Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:18:00 - [23] also, since I'm suprised no one's mentioned it, perhaps yo uand your friend should join Red vs. Blue. we're two perma-wardeced highsec corps, lots of targets, and a little safer than lowsec (we don't pod members) and there's always someone who'll help ya learn stuff. join in game channel R-V-B for info
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare	Posted - 2010.04.08 21:02:00 - [24] Some good points in here all around, one more thing to add, I wish I could remember who told me to give proper credit. Panic kills more players in PvP than skills or fittings ever will. i.e. Sure, skills and fittings help if both players are the same, but most of the time it's panic. You jump through a gate and get pointed. You could burn back to the gate a jump though but people panic, they try to run and warp away, overload their AB, but by then web is on them and in a few seconds they are dead. Even if you go out knowing you will get into a fight, without experience there's that little bit of panic that makes you forget to overload your tank and guns to put up that last few seconds of fight that will make a difference, forget to inject your nanobots, woops, just burnt out all your tank. Forget to watch the range on your targets buddy, woops, just got webbed. In short I guess I'm just emphasising what other people here are saying. Go buy more frigs and go lose them. You have the right attitude, you just need the experience. Once you learn to calmly watch your ship burn in front of you and go down in a ball of flame without even a wince, fighting all the while, then you'll be better than 90% of the other PvP'ers out there, regardless of skills or fitting.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.04.09 18:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Jaffster I'm coming to the realisation that experience is everything in this game, Fixed that for ya, guy that killed you was experienced and using a frigate that comes fully fit as cheap as a a few hundred thousand ISK, not even millions. Experience > Skillpoints Skillpoints just let people with little experience think they have an advantage or in some cases make up for their lack of experience when they're flying an OP ship against something that matches up to it poorly. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.10 04:35:00 - [26] Edited by: Zartrader on 10/04/2010 04:39:50 Originally by: Mendolus Originally by: Jaffster I'm coming to the realisation that experience is everything in this game, Fixed that for ya, guy that killed you was experienced and using a frigate that comes fully fit as cheap as a a few hundred thousand ISK, not even millions. Experience > Skillpoints Skillpoints just let people with little experience think they have an advantage or in some cases make up for their lack of experience when they're flying an OP ship against something that matches up to it poorly. Absolutely, I was so pleased when I joined Red v Blue, which I loved but had to move on for a while. Some experienced players with alts a few days old were kicking my ass and I was about 6 months old with some decent PVP skills trained and a properly fitted ship. I'd done all my research and reading. All went to nothing the first few times. I was pleased as despite all my preparation and SP's it was useless compared to experience. That meant EVE was a game worth playing. I also learned PVP can be dirt cheap to start in and a lot of fun. It also makes me even more annoyed when some people (other forums mainly) spout out you can never catch up in the game and need x months before you can do PVP.

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