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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.04.11 13:18:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Again..blah blah...you make no sense at all..
Rightà because when you cannot understand the key point here: that it isn't your stuff because you haven't earned it, it's really because I don't make any sense.
Try thinking. It helps.
Reading helps too by the way "Hellfire11's wreck"
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Vossejongk
Caldari
Bendebeukers
Green Rhino
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Posted - 2010.04.11 13:21:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Vossejongk on 11/04/2010 13:21:42
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 11/04/2010 12:51:15
Quote:
If I didnt killed the ship in the first place there wouldnt even be any salvage at all.
If you didn't salvage the wreck, there wouldn't be any salvage at all û that's the effort you have to make. The work leading up to this opportunity has already been fully rewarded.
If people like you would let me afterwards I would, but since you did already where's the chance for me to do so?
Quote:
Sure, because of people like you aggro-ing npc groups who weren't doing anything first and then turn their attention to me because you quickly warp out doesn't has any risk at all.
a) works both ways, and b) get a better ship.
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Every time you start a mission you have a chance to lose your ship because you make 1 little mistake and the whole room aggro's you.
Not really, no, and again: standings, LP, rewards and bonuses, bounties, lootà you are already being amply rewarded for this (non-)risk-taking.
If you think missioners have it so good then why don't you do it yourself instead of leech off others.
Salvage is not part of the mission rewards. It is not yours until you make the effort of making it yours by salvaging the wrecks.
Yes it is, and it would be mine if I got the chance of salvaging it myself, but as I said before, you kind of people dont give that chance because you're too lazy to do missions yourself.
But then again I cant really approve of any of this because this is my signature |
Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 13:30:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Tippia on 11/04/2010 13:31:46
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Reading helps too by the way "Hellfire11's wreck"
And the contents are yours because you earned them. The salvage is not because you did not.
Originally by: Vossejongk
If people like you would let me afterwards I would, but since you did already where's the chance for me to do so?
People like me? You're not making any sense. And seeing as how it's a fight between you and him in getting there first, why should he wait until "afterwards" (afterwards of what, exactly?) to let you salvage? In fact, why are you waiting until "afterwards" to get the salvage, when that just lets him get to it? That's when the chance for you to get it is: before "afterwards".
Quote:
If you think missioners have it so good then why don't you do it yourself instead of leech off others.
Ah, you think I'm a ninja salvager. Lol, no. I run missions for my ISK because it's 100% safe. I haven't seen a ninja salvager in years, btw, because they're actually very rare, very easy to avoid, and very easy to beat to the punch unless you're doing something seriously wrong.
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Yes it is, and it would be mine if I got the chance of salvaging it myself
No it is not. It never was. It was never even intended to be. That's just something you've assumed or dreamt up or asserted out of an unfounded, uninformed sense of entitlement. And again: you do have a chance to salvage it yourself, and then you blame everyone else but yourself when you actively choose to forego that chance.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Vossejongk
Caldari
Bendebeukers
Green Rhino
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Posted - 2010.04.11 13:51:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Vossejongk on 11/04/2010 13:56:09
Edited by: Vossejongk on 11/04/2010 13:54:09
Edited by: Vossejongk on 11/04/2010 13:52:00
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 11/04/2010 13:31:46
Yeah because its entirely possible to salvage with a Raven (what most missioners fly) with 6 launchers and 2 heavy nos, which are way more usefull at keeping you alive instead of 1 salvager and 1 tractor beam.
But lets assume I do fit a tractor beam and a salvager and a ninja-salvager pops in my mission. It won't stop him from salvaging the other wrecks which I cant tractor all at once.
TL,DR Missioners get shafted anyway, ninja-salvagers have an easy risk-free way of making huge amounts of ISK.
Maybe I should become one myself and sell my Golem..
I too fly missions because its safe. Not 100%, because as I said before 1 little mistake and you get whole room aggro or a nice spawn of lets say 3/4 BS. When you're scrambled by elite frigates and your drones can't kill them within a few seconds your ship is history.
Ninja-salvagers on the other hand just buy another probe/trasher/cormorant/whatever cheap ass frigate/destroyer, slap on a probe launcher, mwd and a bunch of salvagers and away you go!
Quote:
No it is not. It never was. It was never even intended to be. That's just something you've assumed or dreamt up or asserted out of an unfounded, uninformed
Then why are wrecks white to yourself and yellow to everyone else (exceptions with fleet/corp)? To show others that they have no business with your wrecks. If you want to salvage wrecks, go create your own.
I'm not going to make any words about this anymore. Ninja-salvagers are s****and should be fed rat poison. The EVE community is a society just as real life society is, If you take something that doesn't belongs to you and its unwanted you do so you should be able to get punished for it.
But then again I cant really approve of any of this because this is my signature |
Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:02:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Tippia on 11/04/2010 14:05:53
Originally by: Vossejongk
Yeah because its entirely possible to salvage with a Raven (what most missioners fly) with 6 launchers and 2 heavy nos, which are way more usefull at keeping you alive instead of 1 salvager and 1 tractor beam.
Your choice, your gamble, your potential loss. Again: if you so dearly want the extra income salvage represents, you have to work for it and earn it. This means that your standard set of tools might not be up to the task.
Quote:
But lets assume I do fit a tractor beam and a salvager and a ninja-salvager pops in my mission. It won't stop him from salvaging the other wrecks which I cant tractor all at once.
Another choice you have to make: the balance between finishing the mission quickly and getting absolutely everything. Your problem could be easily solved by only killing as much as you can salvage or by bringing someone else along that can salvage as fast as you can kill. Your problem is that you're trying to do two things at once: you're trying to run missions and salvage. The other guy is only trying to salvage, and can therefore bring something that is probably better suited for the purpose – why shouldn't he be rewarded for it?
Quote:
TL,DR Missioners get shafted anyway, ninja-salvagers have an easy risk-free way of making huge amounts of ISK.
…just like mission runners, since they're doing the exact same thing on top of the easy risk-free ISK they raise from the missions they run.
Quote:
I too fly missions because its safe. Not 100%, because as I said before 1 little mistake and you get whole room aggro or a nice spawn of lets say 3/4 BS. When you're scrambled by elite frigates and your drones can't kill them within a few seconds youre ship is history.
Sounds like you need to fit your ship properly or skill up a bit. Full-room aggro or an additional spawn with 3/4 BS is a fairly minor threat… but then again, I don't fly battleships in my L4s, so that might be part of your problem. 
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Then why are wrecks white to yourself and yellow to everyone else (exceptions with fleet/corp)?
To denote whether they contain a can that is your or not.
Quote:
I'm not going to make any words about this anymore. Ninja-salvagers are s****and should be fed rat poison.
Why? It's just another profession among the many EVE has to offer.
Quote:
The EVE community is a society just as real life society is, If you take something that doesn't belongs to you and its unwanted you do so you should be able to get punished for it.
Ok, so you agree that ninjas are nice upstanding citizens, then, seeing as how they're not taking anything that doesn't belong to them, per the rules of the society they exist in (and per the word of God CCP).
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
ShadowMaiden
Amarr
Metal Machine
Chaos Theory Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
.im old enough to take care of myself.For the ones who want aggro...good plan,but for the ones who want the isk without risk....FAIL!!
isk without risk? like mission running for example?
Those ninja-salvagers that do loot something are taking a risk by flagging themselves to you and your corp. Yet when they do that, they're accused of just doing it to get a gank, so you sit there targetting but not actually shooting; this leading to the inevetable weekly whine on the forums. Either you want to shoot them or you don't...
Further proof there really is no pleasing you scrubs.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:23:00 -
[37]
Like i said before in another post...eve would be boring if it was only pvp.Mission running is boring enough to also put up with being stolen from and not being able to defend it...all we want is aggro.And the chance to fight..if hes in my mission..he went out of his way to find it.And wants isk at someone elses cost.He should be red..and i should have the right to fight...for the right to mission in that system.
So all you trolls get back on your little yellow bus and go where ever it is you came from...if you think about it,i have a very good point.And for the ninjas that want aggro..it would work in your favor.Its just the ones that want free stuff that dont like it.Lets see you fit a ship ready to fight and ninja salvage..if you do..then and only then do you earn my respect.
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:33:00 -
[38]
The current game mechanic is what's supported by CCP, so, I mean, argue any way you want (pro or against) and justify it any way you want (roleplay, fairness, whatever), the only thing this thread (and similar) accomplish is to try to convince CCP to change or keep the mechanic.
And to that purpose, we have, what, 10-20 pro and 10-20 against, in a sea of 300,000 user accounts?
Yeah.
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:33:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Tippia on 11/04/2010 14:34:22
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Like i said before in another post...eve would be boring if it was only pvp.Mission running is boring enough to also put up with being stolen from and not being able to defend it.
 But you can defend against it. You just keep dismissing the various ways you can do it.
Quote:
all we want is aggro.And the chance to fight
Didn't you just say it "would be boring if it was only pvp"? Oh, and for the record, everything that's being discussed here already is PvP…
Quote:
if hes in my mission..he went out of his way to find it.And wants isk at someone elses cost.He should be red..and i should have the right to fight...for the right to mission in that system.
By that logic, anyone who mines in the same belt as me should be red. Anyone who .01-undercuts me on the market should be red. Anyone who anchors a POS should get a GCC. All of these entail getting ISK at someone else's expense and taking stuff they would like to have kept for themselves.
Quote:
if you think about it,i have a very good point.
"I want stuff to be mine without effort" is not a good point – that's what you're asking for.
Quote:
then and only then do you earn my respect.
Wow. The most useless offer of the century, and we're only 10 years in  . How about this: you get to earn our respect when you start actually working for your stuff in a competitive environment, rather than begging CCP to hand it to you for no useful reason.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:38:00 -
[40]
Once again..reading helps alot!I didnt ask ccp for a thing.I just posted this to get another opinion..and i dont care for yours at all.
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Altie McName
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:40:00 -
[41]
What happened, did you either make a new alt to troll on this topic or did seeing the thread about the same topic in the Features and Idea forum get you excited about being a different alt to troll General discussion? Seeing as this is more of a feature request, maybe you should take it to the appropriate forum and comment on the existing one there so we aren't breaking the forum rules . So it can at least be said, for arguments sake...
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)]
---
CCP wants you to HTFU! |
Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:42:00 -
[42]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Once again..reading helps alot!I didnt ask ccp for a thing.I just posted this to get another opinion..and i dont care for yours at all.
So in other words, you didn't actually post to get another opinion – you posted to get the same opinion as your own: that you don't want to make an effort and compete over something that was purposefully designed to be free for all.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Ramiera DaMorre
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:43:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Ramiera DaMorre on 11/04/2010 14:44:46
What the...
I personally have no issues with ninja salvagers since in more than half a year I've only seen one but people defending them are a bit delusional.
I mean come on, I can understand if you hate missioners and their riskfree monies  but saying the wreck doesn't belong to them is like telling a hunter that he has no rights to the prey he just shot down. 
An edit: also calling them "ninja" salvagers already flags them as someone who takes others' goods.
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:46:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ramiera DaMorre
saying the wreck doesn't belong to them is like telling a hunter that he has no rights to the prey he just shot down.
No, it's more like telling a hunter that the mushrooms that get a nutritional boost from the blood splatter can be freely picked by everyone in the forest.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Ramiera DaMorre
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tippia
No, it's more like telling a hunter that the mushrooms that get a nutritional boost from the blood splatter can be freely picked by everyone in the forest.
... You're serious, aren't you?
We're talking about the carcass that can be "salvaged" as meat, bones, leather, not a third party entity. The wreck is the carcass of the rat.
Quote:
No, it flags them as someone who pop up where they aren't necessarily welcome û theft doesn't really come into it.
If you really think so then hone your MMO glossary a bit. :)
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:58:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Once again..reading helps alot!I didnt ask ccp for a thing.I just posted this to get another opinion..and i dont care for yours at all.
So in other words, you didn't actually post to get another opinion û you posted to get the same opinion as your own: that you don't want to make an effort and compete over something that was purposefully designed to be free for all.
No..i posted to get an opinion that makes sense..and not one telling me its not mine when my name and corp name is clearly written on it.Im done with this unless anyone has some real arguments on this subject.
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Altie McName
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:00:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ramiera DaMorre
Originally by: Tippia
No, it's more like telling a hunter that the mushrooms that get a nutritional boost from the blood splatter can be freely picked by everyone in the forest.
... You're serious, aren't you?
We're talking about the carcass that can be "salvaged" as meat, bones, leather, not a third party entity. The wreck is the carcass of the rat.
And you're talking about a real life analogy that doesn't follow the same rules and guidelines that this internet spaceship spreadsheet game. Should someone take that killed body in real life it would be debated as theft following the laws of the place where the incident occurred, in EvE when someone takes the wreck the current laws in place state that it is acceptable. Don't forget, there is no value to the wreck, only potential.
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CCP wants you to HTFU! |
Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:00:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ramiera DaMorre
We're talking about the carcass that can be "salvaged" as meat, bones, leather, not a third party entity. The wreck is the carcass of the rat.
That could just as well be considered the loot – the things you can get from the remains if you open it up. Salvage is what's left behind in nature, and which is free for anyone to come and pick up.
Quote:
If you really think so then hone your MMO glossary a bit. :)
Entirely depends on the MMO – I've only played PvP ones, where "ninja" simply means that: you pop up out of nowhere.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Aera Aiana
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:24:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tippia
That could just as well be considered the loot
Exactly right. It could be considered, or it could not. It's a matter of opinion. We know CCP's opinion, we know the OP's opinion and various others, but we don't know which one is right and which one is wrong because there is no such thing here.
The only thing you really could do is take a vote and do whatever the majority wants. That's about it. Discussing an issue that cannot be right or wrong won't get you anywhere though. It's not even helping to bring this to CCP's attention because the amount of dev feedback clearly indicates CCP is well aware of this.
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Ramiera DaMorre
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:26:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tippia
That could just as well be considered the loot û the things you can get from the remains if you open it up. Salvage is what's left behind in nature, and which is free for anyone to come and pick up.
Yes, it could be considered as the loot, but skinning or gutting the carcass is like salvaging the wreck - extra work for extra gain. I know, I know, a bit stretched, but whatever. :p
Quote:
Entirely depends on the MMO û I've only played PvP ones, where "ninja" simply means that: you pop up out of nowhere.
The origin of the word however lies in the act of theft. Just like how tanks are usually not the heavy hitters (tho it would be more fitting to call them forts or bunkers seeing that their role is soaking up damage :D).
Originally by: Altie McName
And you're talking about a real life analogy that doesn't follow the same rules and guidelines that this internet spaceship spreadsheet game. Should someone take that killed body in real life it would be debated as theft following the laws of the place where the incident occurred, in EvE when someone takes the wreck the current laws in place state that it is acceptable. Don't forget, there is no value to the wreck, only potential.
Mhm, I know. All I'm saying is that it's saddening how it is seemingly too hard for lots of people to see the reasoning and sentiments behind the "I shot the damn rat, how come I'm only entitled by rights of kill to only a part of it and the rest is ffa?!" argument.
I understand the feelings of those frustrated by this and see the cause of their anger but since I'm playing this game (which now all of you lost btw) I accept the rules of it without throwing a tantrum.
IRL I'd chin the git who'd try to grab mah trophy and no deltaforce would come to save his ass.  What I don't understand is how people can't understand it (or at least show no sign of it) and just keep saying that it's free, it's not yours, you did nothing for it, blah blah blah. Yeeeah, right, because the wreck just spawns like asteroids, eh?
 Actually I'd love to see some ship graveyards as scannable entities.
Oh well. Longwinded posts make me hungry so time to grab some meat.
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S'qarpium D'igil
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:48:00 -
[51]
Hey, cool thread.
I used to get mad about salvagers in my missions too... like the first time lol
Then I thought: "Hey, how is he able to get in here anyway?"
So I trained up probing, flew into somebody's mission, and never looked back again.
Salvaging IS A PROFESSION in EVE, and I'm going to fight for the right to continue playing the game my way (EVE is a sandbox). Does your rubbish bin behind your house have your name on it? Well it might, but I don't think you mind it when people come back a clean it out. That's exactly what salvagers are doing... cleaning up the space rubbish.
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Ramiera DaMorre
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:50:00 -
[52]
Originally by: S'qarpium D'igil
Does your rubbish bin behind your house have your name on it? Well it might, but I don't think you mind it when people come back a clean it out. That's exactly what salvagers are doing... cleaning up the space rubbish.
As a matter of fact, around here they tend to have the name of the owner on them. Not to mention that the rubbish in the bin was thrown away while the wreck was not.
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Eradia
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:51:00 -
[53]
I dont understand what you mean by "Its not my stuff". If It is not mine then why do CCP even flag it as so? If I am not mistaken the mechanics of the game show players, cargo, wrecks, in certain colors to provide an explanation of such players status or item status.....Being said...Not only is the cargo flagged YELLOW (which clearly states wreck is owned by another player) but the wreck itself is flagged YELLOW with or without cargo .....except to the person who killed it or their corp ..CLEARLY indicating it belongs to those persons. If this is incorrect than why doesnt the empty wreck itself flag BLUE meaning its abandoned and is a so called "free for all" or white clearly stating it is not owned. Therefore the mechanics of the game clearly show that the WRECK and its contents belong to the persons doing the killing. With that said I think that such property should be able to be DEFENDED. Let them ninja salvage but also if they want to live on the edge and steal ...thats what "ninja" salvaging is however you like to butter it up.... let them pay the consequences if caught.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:56:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 11/04/2010 15:55:53
Originally by: HeIIfire11
...im old enough to take care of myself.For the ones who want aggro...good plan,but for the ones who want the isk without risk....FAIL!!
...this coming from a hi-sec mission runner
:irony:
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
S'qarpium D'igil
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Posted - 2010.04.11 15:59:00 -
[55]
Edited by: S''qarpium D''igil on 11/04/2010 16:02:48
CCP has been clear on this topic, why can't you guys just let them fix more important things like rockets and lag?
Quote:
GMs On Salvage CCP has spoken. Salvage is not stealing. ItÆs not an exploit. ItÆs an intended mini-profession:
CCP Mitnal: ôOur policy on this is extremely clearà Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing.ö
GM Faolchu: ôThis is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit.ö
Senior GM Ytterbium: ôPlayers are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will à and doing so is not considered as an exploit.ö
Software Engineer CCP Prism X: ôBefore the salvage enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing.ö
CCP Incognito: ôNinja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. ô
Courtesy of ironfleet.com
Now can you guys please get back to running missions so I can make money too? lol
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.04.11 16:04:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 11/04/2010 15:56:44
Originally by: HeIIfire11
...im old enough to take care of myself.For the ones who want aggro...good plan,but for the ones who want the isk without risk....FAIL!!
...this coming from a hi-sec mission runner
:irony:
(btw, probing down missions takes a lot more skill than any L4 you'll ever do)
I dont need eve to test my skills...I have battlefield or counterstrike to do that...so it depends on what you call fail.In my eyes..a pvp player does nothing more than blob up and the rest is luck and chance.So pvp isnt much more than learning to fit for a mission.Or running the market.
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S'qarpium D'igil
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Posted - 2010.04.11 16:05:00 -
[57]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
I dont need eve to test my skills...I have battlefield or counterstrike to do that...
lol now I see why you getting so mad
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.04.11 16:09:00 -
[58]
Originally by: S'qarpium D'igil
Originally by: HeIIfire11
I dont need eve to test my skills...I have battlefield or counterstrike to do that...
lol now I see why you getting so mad
Im nowhere near mad...as a bf modder i tend to notice the little things and this is one...that should be looked into.All the rest is troll food
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S'qarpium D'igil
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Posted - 2010.04.11 16:12:00 -
[59]
Edited by: S''qarpium D''igil on 11/04/2010 16:16:24
Have you read anything in this thread beyond your own words/posts?
It has been looked into and CCP has been very clear about their stance. Now move along. I think this thread space can be much better used by talking about socket closed errors. 
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drunkenmaster
Macho Grande
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Posted - 2010.04.11 16:17:00 -
[60]
This thread made me want to try ninja salvaging. So I did. Probed out a dude in a Rattlesnake, warped in cloaked, checked the wrecks, worked out what the mission was, and waited for him to finish. 2 seconds after he warped out, I was uncloaked, and salvaging the BS wrecks. By the time he got back, the large wrecks and I were both gone. Just to add a little spice, I stole a bunch of his loot too. 10 minutes work, 6M isk.
This is hilarious, and a new direction for me. I hope I can get some dude to post about it soon. That would make my week.
Also, how did this thread continue past the point where the CCP opinion on wrecks and salvage was posted. Surely it stops there, no?
Sig pending |
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