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Lennvas
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Posted - 2010.04.17 05:27:00 -
[1]
So here I am, a new character asking three questions:
a) as a newbie to trading I got 3 mio from an alt, Retail, Trade and Broker Relations. Do I need anything else for first toedipping into trading?
b) is it a viable strategie, when trading very low voumes like 5-15 in cheap stuff, to join the 0.01 isk game but with a difference of say, 0.10? I guessed with such a small volume, either most other traders wont notice me, or they dont go to the trouble adapting to my prices for such small volumes.
Do you see any mistakes or stuff I should do/posses additionaly? This is basicly a test, so I wont spend millions on tradeskills right now.
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Shurrurru
Red Unicorns Love Chocolate
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Posted - 2010.04.17 05:37:00 -
[2]
It's a good idea to get Broker Relations and Accounting as high as you can as quick as you can so that you pay less money to THE MAN (tax). In addition, running some missions for the Caldari Navy in your downtime (waiting for orders) would further help reduce broker fees. Other than that the range skills are nice to have if you do any travel (frigates are great for picking up the odd 2-3 cheap units from other systems/regions to bring back), as you can keep closer control of your orders when you're not docked.
The most viable strategy in trade is making money. The market is a form of PvP, don't ever forget that. In PvP you do what you can to survive, the market is no different - though I suppose exceptions to that rule are 8.8 billion shuttles. And even that is "viable", though not very honorable.
As for low volumes.. If I'm selling something that sells very quickly (check market history to see how many per day) and your volume plus my volume is still lower than total sales for one day (or one hour, depending on the unit) then I may allow you to undercut me. Some people will undercut 0.01 even against one unit when they have 300, nothing can really be predicted here.
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Cista2
Stormhawk Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.04.17 05:44:00 -
[3]
1) As the other guy says, accounting. After trade you want the retail skill, beware that you don't need to train trade to level 5.
2) Everyone will undercut you if you undercut with 0.1 isk. If you undercut with 3-5% and have a relatively small volume then it's out in the open.
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Join "Signatures" channel - the chatroom for traders |
Maudad
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Posted - 2010.04.17 11:40:00 -
[4]
After a fair bit of selling in Jita, I came to the conclusion there is always someone willing to undercut you, especially when the system is busy, I frequently have an order with only a couple of items left undercut (sometimes by large amounts).
I see a lot of high and low volume orders trying to put people off by undercutting by a large margin and it mostly just means the market crashes faster as the herd 0.01 isks them. Of course some of these crashes are deliberate and the manipulator will just buy up all the now cheap goods and sell them at the higher price in Jita or elsewhere.
tl/dr amount of people watching thier orders is more important than the amount you undercut.
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Ping Bong
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Posted - 2010.04.17 15:56:00 -
[5]
i will always undercut on whatever im selling even if it completely kills my profit(as long as im not actually losing isk ofc), why? coz undercutting by a large margin is terrorism and i dont negotiate with terrorists.
as for ur plan, low volume*low price=low profit so its got fail written all over it
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Yarinor
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.17 17:58:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Ping Bong
as for ur plan, low volume*low price=low profit so its got fail written all over it
Depends on the margin.
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Ping Bong
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Posted - 2010.04.17 19:31:00 -
[7]
you could make 500% profit on trading 100isk napkins 100 per day but at the end of the day you still only make 50k, margins alone wont make or break anything
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Siiee
Recycled Heroes
Codemonkey Construction Project
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Posted - 2010.04.17 23:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ping Bong
i will always undercut even if it completely kills my profit
...
ur plan = low profit so its got fail written all over it
I loled
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Spruillo
Gallente
Spruillo Corp 2
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Posted - 2010.04.18 04:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Siiee
Originally by: Ping Bong
i will always undercut even if it completely kills my profit
...
ur plan = low profit so its got fail written all over it
I loled
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Dzil
Caldari
SafeHouse Investments of Tautology
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Posted - 2010.04.18 18:13:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shurrurru
It's a good idea to get Broker Relations and Accounting as high as you can as quick as you can so that you pay less money to THE MAN (tax). In addition, running some missions for the Caldari Navy in your downtime (waiting for orders) would further help reduce broker fees. Other than that the range skills are nice to have if you do any travel (frigates are great for picking up the odd 2-3 cheap units from other systems/regions to bring back), as you can keep closer control of your orders when you're not docked.
The most viable strategy in trade is making money. The market is a form of PvP, don't ever forget that. In PvP you do what you can to survive, the market is no different - though I suppose exceptions to that rule are 8.8 billion shuttles. And even that is "viable", though not very honorable.
As for low volumes.. If I'm selling something that sells very quickly (check market history to see how many per day) and your volume plus my volume is still lower than total sales for one day (or one hour, depending on the unit) then I may allow you to undercut me. Some people will undercut 0.01 even against one unit when they have 300, nothing can really be predicted here.
The .1 instead of .01 thing is meaningless. As above if you're small enough someone may let your order stand, they may even think you're baiting them downward  .
You will probably get the same bang for your isk spending less personal time babysitting the order if you move out of Jita. Go to a mid/large sized mission hub (find any high quality l5 agent in your region) and try reselling there. If you can sell off your whole stock in a day, you're fine.
Diversify as much as your orders allow.
Accounting is good, but consider the gain versus the cost: if you have a working capital of 3 million isk, accounting is not only not worth it, I don't even think you can afford it. When you're working with hundreds of millions or billions, the impact is more useful in relation to the opportunity cost.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
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The Optician
Pathfinder Enterprise
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Posted - 2010.04.19 02:24:00 -
[11]
People just use market bots in Jita, changing .1 v .01 will have no effect. You can however have some fun trying to break the market bots and get them to bring their prices down by more than is intended 
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Traska Gannel
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Posted - 2010.04.19 19:21:00 -
[12]
Hi ...
I've done a lot of station trading in Jita for a variety of items, off and on, over the last year or so.
Some comments:
1) Small changes in price aren't meaningful unless the price is low. A 0.1 ISK difference is significant in the Tritanium market but probably almost no where else. If there is significant competition people will beat your price since they want to make whatever profit is available.
2) profits = volume * margin - trading fees - opportunity cost ... you also need to assign a value to your time and risk if you need to ship the items from one market hub to another ... the cost you can assign this time would be whatever you could have made using the same time doing something else. This is one reason station trading is attractive since it minimizes the cost of your time involved.
3) If you train up some of the remote market skills you can run missions in the same region and update/place new orders in Jita at the same time which reduces the opportunity cost. I did this while faction farming some missions.
4) Sometimes people will allow small volume orders which are 5 to 10% above the going price stand. This is usually a good idea since it can often be someone looking to acquire the module for use as opposed to trading and they do not want to pay the asking price on Sell orders. However, if you are in the market for trading, then if you can make a profit at any given level then almost every other player can make a profit at that level +/- 0.01 ISK. Also, jumping a bid by 5 to 10% or more won't generally get rid of the competition for exactly the same reason. This isn't the real world, most players have very deep pockets, ISK is easy to come by and if you can make a profit at any particular level then so can everyone else. I've read advice in several places that says the best approach to competition in EVE is to raise sell orders or undercut buy orders substantially to reduce competition and to be honest I've never seen it work. It just seems to reduce margins.
5) There are lots of markets in EVE ... T2 modules, T1 base modules, T1 meta level modules, T1 ships, T2 ships, minerals and raw materials (including moon stuff), processed raw materials, cap ships, cap ship components, T2 ship components .... In addition to this, there are lots of regional variations ... different market hubs, different mission running hubs ... this leads to lots of room for profits as either a trader or industrialist but in some markets there will also be lots of competition.
6) One more tip/comment. The valuation of all of the T1 base modules and most of the low meta level T1 modules is based on their reprocess values to minerals and thus tied to the mineral markets. If you look up most T1 base modules the buy order prices usually track the current 100% reprocess value. Industrialists buy up these modules from mission loot as an alternative to buying minerals directly. The sell order prices are typically a little higher and are presumably indicative of the manufacturing costs. Margins in low meta level T1 modules tend to be a little higher but some recent software releases (Eve Refinery) have made it easier for these opportunities to be identified so the competition in these markets has gone up substantially :)
Cheers,
Traska
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