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How the UI is ruining everyone's Eve experience..

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Swiftgaze Elysium Trading Company Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:43:00 - [1] ..or: Why CCP hates traders. Massive wall of text following. Go get yourself some tea. Hello fellow capsuleers, after going through more than 200 market orders this morning, which took about an hour and caused me enormous pain and possibly inner bleedings, I'm here to tell you about how the UI is ruining my Eve experience. Call it a fragment of a review, if you want. I know that a swarm of people will infiltrate this topic soon, who think that they're doing any kind of service to Eve by denying that the UI is one of its biggest weaknesses. "Go back to [game with better UI]." Well, most people do. That's a PROBLEM, not the SOLUTION. I'll start by posting a little screenshot from the market: Clicky Now wouldn't that be nice? Knowing which order is yours and being able to modify it directly.. pure luxery, it seems to us "spoiled" Eve players. So near and yet so far. Going through 200 market orders.. I'll tell you what that really takes. Step by step, using the example of a can of Quafe. (I already have an order up in this example, the 1 can of Quafe for 1 ISK. It's at the bottom.) 1.) Check the market details. Find your own order amongst all the others. Notice that this is only possible this fast because I know that only my order is up for 1 ISK. Screen. 2.) Go to "My orders". There's a bunch of stuff on there that I can't show now, but not my can of Quafe. Screen. 3.) Quafe is not on the list. Scroll down to Quafe. Screen. 4.) Right-click Quafe and click at "Modify order". Screen. 5.) How the hell am I supposed to remember the highest buy order price by now? Go back to market details, and leave the "Modify order"-window open. Screen. 6.) Drag the "Modify order"-window back to the foreground. Screen. 7.) At last, I'm able to modify the order. 8.) I want to modify my order for Quafe again. Let's do it. Oh. "My orders" has scrolled back to the top. Well, thanks much. Back to step 2.) Times 200. With different items. A unser interface fails when the user has to execute significantly more actions on the UI than thoughts in his brain. Modifying my order is like three steps of thinking, seeing it, comparing it to the momentarily highest buy order, and changing my own accordingly. On the other hand, struggling with that interface is a nightmare, takes ages, probably makes me dumber and is responsible for about 99% of all right-clicks on my computer. I'm not even sure if CCP acknowledges that traders really exist in their universe, regardless of how much they advertise Eve as a game where everything is possible, from exploration over fighting to industry and trading. Maybe they once knew, and fired the only person who was aware of my species of player a long time ago. Traders have no implants, a skill section of only about 5m SP and then THIS. This process of updating orders, which could be so easily fixed (yes fixed, because it's BROKEN) is only the tip of the iceberg. I can't make the "My orders" screen only show orders from the current region. I can sort the list by the name of the station that I placed the orders at, but not by regions. I don't compete against other traders, I pvGUI. This fight takes time and nerves. It's what players call "boring". I dare to say that most new players who enter Eve and find it too boring don't actually mean the fighting, the exploration or the gameplay concept of player groups fighting each other for money, power and fame. They hardly ever experience any of that, I wonder how many new players who start in space don't even make it to the nearest station. -To be continued-
Swiftgaze Elysium Trading Company Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:44:00 - [2] When they say "this is too boring", and exceptionlessly all of the people who I have tried to invite to Eve said this, they mean having to right-click in space and going through drop-down menus to warp to the next station or gate (not even system, that requires another drop-down menu!) instead of being able to click at those objects on their overview and hitting a "dock" button there. This post was long overdue. I didn't even mention the fitting screen, probe scanning in anything else than 24 bit colors mode, the corporation interface which is again lacking essential gameplay features, next to having a horrible layout or how I can hardly open my cargohold in a cloaked ship. To summarize: I think the user interface of Eve is a demon that will dance in the empty CCP offices, should Eve ever die. Discuss.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:52:00 - [3] While your idea for improvement is good, you seem to be cramming both the market and your orders into a really small space. I've never found it that much of an issue. Originally by: Swiftgaze click at those objects on their overview and hitting a "dock" button there That's how I dock. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:53:00 - [4] Yeah, the UI sucks. But who knows, with CCP trying to make the game more streamlined there's a chance the UI will be updated for the sake of new players joining in after Incarna or something. Just don't hold your breath. __________ "Welcome, to city 17. It's safer here."
Nobzy	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:53:00 - [5] Didn't get past the title, and replied only to point out that you with your opinions do not represent everyone. oh and the massive wall of text isn't that massive
Cyrus Deacon	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:55:00 - [6] While I dont think the in station trading UI is necessarily broken, I to think the UI could be much better. For such a great game, the UI does kill it for a lot of new players. 8/10
Lead Six	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:01:00 - [7] I'm certainly an advocate for the opened windows remembering their place in the scroll list. Ever tried to buy a bunch of one thing off the LP store list? They really need to change the 5 minute post limitation here on the forums as well (dear God what are you thinking with this?!) One or two minutes is way plenty. 5 minutes and you're just driving people away in frustration, punishing everyone for the ******ation of a few.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:02:00 - [8] Just allow users to modify the UI wowstyle and the player-base will solve all your problems for you. Theres no good reason why they won't do this, it clearly hasn't hurt WoW sales. Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:06:00 - [9] Originally by: Sader Rykane Theres no good reason why they won't do this Yes there is: more metagaming and potential for various 'sploits and abuses. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Pesky LaRue Minmatar Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:09:00 - [10] Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 21/04/2010 15:11:50 Not disagreeing that the UI needs much work but, from the pictures I just glanced at you're making things harder for yourself than need be - 1. your resolution is too small 2. you're doing it all from one screen and need to split it out so that you're looking at your orders from your wallet and the market price from the market screen - Another way of doing it Again, i agree that the UI needs a lot of work, but I'm not sure it needs it because of this. edit: i still can't get more than half your pictures to open (imageshack is timing out) so if I have misread the couple I got open, apologies in advance. . [Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels]

Swiftgaze Elysium Trading Company Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:09:00 - [11] Edited by: Swiftgaze on 21/04/2010 15:13:07 Originally by: Crumplecorn While your idea for improvement is good, you seem to be cramming both the market and your orders into a really small space. I've never found it that much of an issue. I could have made the screenshots bigger but that wouldn't change anything? At all? Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Swiftgaze click at those objects on their overview and hitting a "dock" button there That's how I dock. I shall make myself clearer on this, the additional click is completely redundant, there's no reason why there shouldn't be a dock button in the overview already. Originally by: Crumplecorn Now, the fact that viewing those images in sequence involved opening a tab for each image as normal, and then clicking a link in each tab before they would display, that's broken. ...I'll go and change that. EDIT: Can't change it. Thread is too long. Originally by: Pesky LaRue Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 21/04/2010 15:09:29 Not disagreeing that the UI needs much work but, from the pictures I just glanced at you're making things harder for yourself than need be - 1. your resolution is too small 2. you're doing it all from one screen and need to split it out so that you're looking at your orders from your wallet and the market price from the market screen - Again, i agree that the UI needs a lot of work, but I'm not sure it needs it because of this. That's a workaround for an inconvenience of the user interface. It still sucks in equal measure.
Armageddon Brown Bjorn Filthy Incorporated Eternal Strife	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Sader Rykane Just allow users to modify the UI wowstyle and the player-base will solve all your problems for you. Theres no good reason why they won't do this, it clearly hasn't hurt WoW sales. it creates an arms race in pvp ui technology - if you remember the ruckus over programs that could create audio cues when wartargets (or -10 standings) pilots jumped into local, you'll have an idea of what would happen if you allowed scripted UI. to the OP, if you click and hold on an object space you get a pop up radial menu that matches has most of the common actions (dock, jump, align, keep at range, board, etc.) - the UI in eve is pretty functional, it's just not incredibly intuitive or well-documented. trading could use a little help, even if it were simple stuff like highlighting your own orders or better control over what windows wind up on top when you press stuff like the magnifying glass on the sell item window.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:13:00 - [13] Edited by: Zartrader on 21/04/2010 15:15:16 Well, a few of us have been saying this for some time although that's nothing to brag about as its obvious the UI is terrible throughout the game (cancel order is next to modify and I cant change that?) As this game grows the UI issue will get worse, not better. I've not seen one dev blog about it yet, in my opinion, it's one of the major reasons people do not stick with the game and one of the major causes of frustration with regular players. As well as being clunky, ugly, bloated (I have never seen so much space give so little information as the fleet window) and almost completely unmodifiable it's whole conceptual basis is flawed. I just suspect the UI is so deeply ingrained in the code and in such a mess it would take a complete rewrite to fix it. I'm probably being dramatic but I think this could be the one thing that stops EVE ever getting the subs they would hope for. Most people would simply not put up with it as even the worst games out there do it better. There are numerous other games out there that CCP can learn from, they do not even have to think too much. In another game I played I had considerably more information and interaction with the game in a space a fraction of what the EVE UI uses. I want the UI assist me in the game not be a barrier to it.
Marquis Zenas I.X Research	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:16:00 - [14] Agreed and have similar thoughts. I do heavy market trading and making changes is always a ballache. The UI in general isn't the best especially the overuse of right-click (Whats wrong with clicking on a item and then have some sort of open-out menu to see the options that can be done with it!) I mean, whomever thought to put trash ship next to activate ship must have been drunk at the time - it's just poor UI design like having the delete document button next to the save document button! -------------------------- Sigless
Pesky LaRue Minmatar Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:18:00 - [15] Originally by: Swiftgaze That's a workaround for an inconvenience of the user interface. It still sucks in equal measure. I disagree. You're complaining about the number of clicks this operation takes you (and with over 200 orders open myself, believe me, i DO sympathise) but you can drastically reduce this with this 'workaround'. It's still less than ideal but my process is simpler than yours by just using the GUI properly - 1. open wallet to 'my orders' & open market screen 2. right click on item #1 in 'my orders' and select 'view market details' 3. right click on item and select 'modify order' 4. modify the order and hit ok. Again, if they can streamline and simplify this, awesome, but doesn't have to be as bad as you make it. Not to compare apples & oranges, but a system like this has existing in most MMOG's where you can change an order or have a proper market place that's not dependent on an Auction House. I used to have to spend hours relisting items in Star Wars Galaxies, this is easier than that my a huge margin. . [Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels]
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Pesky LaRue Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 21/04/2010 15:18:56 Originally by: Swiftgaze That's a workaround for an inconvenience of the user interface. It still sucks in equal measure. I disagree. You're complaining about the number of clicks this operation takes you (and with over 200 orders open myself, believe me, i DO sympathise) but you can drastically reduce this with this 'workaround'. It's still less than ideal but my process is simpler than yours by just using the GUI properly - 1. open wallet to 'my orders' & open market screen 2. right click on item #1 in 'my orders' and select 'view market details' 3. right click on item and select 'modify order' 4. modify the order and hit ok. Again, if they can streamline and simplify this, awesome, but doesn't have to be as bad as you make it. Not to compare apples & oranges, but a system like this has existing in most MMOG's where you can change an order or have a proper market place that's not dependent on an Auction House. I used to have to spend hours relisting items in Star Wars Galaxies, this is easier than that by a huge margin. That's what I do but it's a workaround and completely unsatisfactory in a professional game. It's also one of many issues with the UI too. EVE is a great game but so much is spoiled by the UI, it's such a shame.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Zartrader Originally by: Pesky LaRue Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 21/04/2010 15:18:56 Originally by: Swiftgaze That's a workaround for an inconvenience of the user interface. It still sucks in equal measure. I disagree. You're complaining about the number of clicks this operation takes you (and with over 200 orders open myself, believe me, i DO sympathise) but you can drastically reduce this with this 'workaround'. It's still less than ideal but my process is simpler than yours by just using the GUI properly - 1. open wallet to 'my orders' & open market screen 2. right click on item #1 in 'my orders' and select 'view market details' 3. right click on item and select 'modify order' 4. modify the order and hit ok. Again, if they can streamline and simplify this, awesome, but doesn't have to be as bad as you make it. Not to compare apples & oranges, but a system like this has existing in most MMOG's where you can change an order or have a proper market place that's not dependent on an Auction House. I used to have to spend hours relisting items in Star Wars Galaxies, this is easier than that by a huge margin. That's what I do but it's a workaround and completely unsatisfactory in a professional game. It's also one of many issues with the UI too. EVE is a great game but so much is spoiled by the UI, it's such a shame. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you in principal, but if the argument is "the UI is crap because I have to open two screens to reduce half my clicks and i don't want to make it easier by using two windows instead of 1 and why should I have to when I could complain about having to do more clicks than I would like?" then i can't get onboard. yes, the UI needs a LOT of work and yes, the UI is a major sources of frustration for a lot of players, but whether it's a "workaround" or a redesign, the OP is making life harder for himself than need be. . [Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels]
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Swiftgaze I could have made the screenshots bigger but that wouldn't change anything? At all? There would be no more clicking between windows. Originally by: Crumplecorn I shall make myself clearer on this, the additional click is completely redundant, there's no reason why there shouldn't be a dock button in the overview already. One click to select object, one more to action it. Where is the redundancy? Originally by: Crumplecorn ...I'll go and change that. I was referring to the forum's trojan warning. That's a **ing pain. Originally by:** Zartrader cancel order is next to modify and I cant change that? So many complaints about the UI come from peoples' inability to handle a mouse. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!

CCP Shadow C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:25:00 - [19] I've moved this thread from EVE General Discussion to Features & Ideas Discussion. I'm hoping there will be some constructive input on potential changes/improvements to the UI here. Carry on. -- Shadow

Swiftgaze Elysium Trading Company Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:26:00 - [20] Edited by: Swiftgaze on 21/04/2010 15:26:21 This thread doesn't belong into Features and Ideas as I was discussing something that's relevant to Eve in general. My ms-painted-screenshot does not justify calling this an idea. I've posted enough into Features & Ideas to know that that section is the bin of this forum.

Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:26:00 - [21] What a surprise, moved to the outskirts to be sunk into oblivion. CCP this is a general issue about the core part of the game, not a feature or idea, hiding from it won't make it go away.
Red Emma Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Zartrader Edited by: Zartrader on 21/04/2010 15:18:49 EDIT: As to scripted UI this is the obvious solution, implementing LUA. There is a lot of ignorance as to what you can and can't do with it reflected in many posts here. The fact is it's very easy for CCP to remove commands that may lead to exploits or other issues. And as said, let the players do the work as CCP clearly can't be bothered. This, imo. That "other" game has had various commands removed, when they were deemed problematic by the devs, which broke certain addons...which, of course, was the idea. The UI needs a major overhaul. Open it up to the community! As much as Incarna may attract new players, I'd hate to see those newbies have to wrestle with the current, clunky UI, and have it ruin their experience.
Marquis Zenas I.X Research	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Crumplecorn So many complaints about the UI come from peoples' inability to handle a mouse. Everybody slips and makes mistakes, especially if you are trawling through a large number of orders. It wouldn't be so bad with a confirmation box but it doesn't. -------------------------- Sigless
Pesky LaRue Minmatar Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Zartrader cancel order is next to modify and I cant change that? So many complaints about the UI come from peoples' inability to handle a mouse. Agreed, but there ARE some very poorly placed menu options in the UI that stand to be moved. As someone else said, having 'save document' right next to 'delete document' wouldn't make much sense either. . [Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels]
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Pesky LaRue Agreed, but there ARE some very poorly placed menu options in the UI that stand to be moved. As someone else said, having 'save document' right next to 'delete document' wouldn't make much sense either. Agreed, but this is a minor issue (which does mean it should be fixed easily) which is presented on the forums as OMGWORSTINTERFACEEVEREVEISDYING. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Swiftgaze Elysium Trading Company Elysium Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:34:00 - [26] Edited by: Swiftgaze on 21/04/2010 15:36:11 Why did I even bother posting this? I knew that there was only one thing that did a better job keeping Eve a second-rate game than the GUI, the customer support. I feel secondary embarassment.
Marquis Zenas I.X Research	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:34:00 - [27] Originally by: CCP Shadow I've moved this thread from EVE General Discussion to Features & Ideas Discussion. I'm hoping there will be some constructive input on potential changes/improvements to the UI here. Carry on. -- Shadow Maybe make a sticky in some form to promote discussion as this thread can easily disappear? -------------------------- Sigless
Miss Connolly Public Relations Corp	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:37:00 - [28] I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. The GUI really could do with some work (long before we worry about such trivialities as being able to get out of our ships). For traders the GUI is particularly terrible. It's one of the main reasons I never got into trading - it's just such a PITA to constantly update your market orders with such a slow and crappy interface. Like trying to eat soup with a fork. There are also some other things that really make me want to rage quit regularly: Every time I have to read "session change already in progress" when I want to jump clone or change ship I have to murder a kitten or get ulcers. I can understand the need for session timers in some situations (such as jumping from system to system) but changing my ship? In the same god damn station? Those are 4 clicks but I'm forced to wait a full 30 seconds between the second and third click. It's a bit like being tortured. I agree with the OP that these sort of things are a main reason why so many people can't stand playing this otherwise very interesting and great game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:39:00 - [29] Originally by: CCP Shadow I'm hoping there will be some constructive input on potential changes/improvements to the UI here. There already has been. The OP's idea is a good improvement that shouldn't be that hard to do, and the 'trash ship next to activate ship' thing, while I consider it to be minor, should be a trivial fix. Hop to it. - Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know!
Pesky LaRue Minmatar Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels	Posted - 2010.04.21 15:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Pesky LaRue Agreed, but there ARE some very poorly placed menu options in the UI that stand to be moved. As someone else said, having 'save document' right next to 'delete document' wouldn't make much sense either. Agreed, but this is a minor issue (which does mean it should be fixed easily) which is presented on the forums as OMGWORSTINTERFACEEVEREVEISDYING. As so many are... . [Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels]



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