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Double standard for dishonoring ransoms?

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PCaBoo Quam Singulari Cult of War	Posted - 2010.04.26 03:10:00 - [61] Noone ever pays after you let them go... I mean i've heard of it being done, but only a few times. Like this one time, I forget who, ransomed a guy for a pizza. The pizza showed up at his mothers house or something. ________________________________ Stop nerfing everything!
Sir Carnage	Posted - 2010.04.26 04:11:00 - [62] Originally by: Cpt Tackle Originally by: Sir Carnage I'm pretty sure I've laid out my argument fairly effectively and have even gone so far as to include examples, name the ethical systems, explain at least a small portion of them, given enough information to allow anyone to research my argument further if they're unfamiliar with the ethical systems involved, and I've shown why your argument is invalid given the false premises necessary to make it valid, that being your equating two dissimilar things. Your logical reasoning was very interesting and educational. The only thing that i really objected to is that you based it on a claim that I projected real world values onto EVE universe even though I did everything i could to point out that all my reasoning is from character's perspective -- as opposed to player. Which would require applying a value system for the way your argument was worded. The argument done as if the character was an actual, sentient being would make the real world value systems even more relevant and not less. Given the background for Eve, it would be an egoistic system and suddenly morality becomes relative. Everything now is a struggle towards pleasure and away from pain, (from Hobbes' Leviathan). Making the character central and not the player does not change the application of my argument, if anything, it would make it stronger as my assertion that none of this matters as it is just a game is no longer valid in your present scenario. support the parrot
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.26 12:29:00 - [63] It depends on the context of the ransom as well. I personally don't dishonour any ransoms, as it is a personal playstyle of mine (Rather than one for maximum profit). But if you manage to catch a hulk in highsec through can flipping, or get aggro on a Raven by salvage stealing, generally speaking it is more profitable to dishonour the ransom, as the said Hulk or Raven pilot is very unlikely to be a repeat customer. Once he gets caught by your trap once, it has to be insanely stupid to be baited/caught by you again, and if he "spreads the good word" about you honouring ransoms to his mates, likelyhood is they won't get caught because they just learned about you. In lowsec where you are living in a certain pocket, its probably better to honour ransoms because your victim may well be a repeat customer if he lives in the area, him and his corp mates are much more likely to come to lowsec again than to be baited by a specific corp/player again in highsec. You're absolutely right when it comes to letting victims go first, they aren't going to pay. I think I've ransomed noobs (mostly because they were 4 day olds etc) for 500k/1million isk before, and only 1 of the 8 or so actually paid me. This is exponetionally true in highsec, where the victim is probably not going to be caught again. For mercs / highsec wardeccers it definately pays to honour ransoms, a list of referals from corps/alliances you've successfully ransomed really helps in getting them to pay when they're on the fence but unsure whether you'll honour it or not. ---
Sol'Kanar Private Nuisance	Posted - 2010.04.26 16:28:00 - [64] OP - Yes it's a double standard, but it's not an unfair expectation of either party. Quite a few people's perception is that you, the pirate, should honor your ransom and your victim has no reason to honor their promise to pay if you let them go. Personally, my motivations are profit, lols, and QQ. Any combination of the three, and I consider myself a winner and my time well spent in Eve. That's why I never honor ****. I get the extra isk, the loot, the killmail, the tears, and more tears from low-sec pirates constantly crying about how I'm mean and doing it wrong. The low-sec pirate tears are delectable because they are laced with an extra layer of irony. Maybe one day I'll have low-sec pirates petitioning me for having their style of play aggrieved. I can only hope. My advice, OP, is dishonor the ransom, point out the double standard and laugh hysterically. Private Nuisance Now Recruiting
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2010.04.26 19:13:00 - [65] Originally by: Crumplecorn It's not really a double standard as the motivation is different in the case of the pirate and the victim. If 'honour' or whatever was the driving motivation behind everything, everyone should/would honour everything, and this would be a double standard, but the actual motivation is profit. By honouring ransoms a pirate increases their long term income by (hopefully) making people more willing to pay up in the future. On the other hand, if a victim were to become well known for paying up even if you let them go first, they would be targeted more often, thus incurring more losses. So, honour is good business for pirates and bad business for victims. Also, since the pirate is the aggressor in this situation, the onus is on them to prove their honour. No-ones going to blame the victim for not paying up if they got away. You're still misunderstanding his point... he's not looking at this from the pirates perspective, or from the victims perspective, but from the observers perspective. You're quite right, the victim and the pirate have different motivations... that's not the point... the point is the observer of said actions (whichever direction it goes) has a double standard if they call the pirates action wrong, but the victims action justified. Both parties are coming to an agreement, and either following through or breaking that agreement. OP is quite correct in calling it a double standard to say it's ok for the victim to break his agreement, but not ok for the pirate to break his.
jimmyjam Gallente Sinner Among Saints Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2010.04.26 20:59:00 - [66] This is an age old issuse theres a few ways most people handle it.1. some honor all ransoms and act like an adult. 2. some will take the ransom and blow you up anyways and then come with a bunch of reasons as to why they blew you up most likely to enable them self to not feel bad about it.C the last one just does whatever they want to do in game no matter what no agenda. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Arvano	Posted - 2010.04.26 22:30:00 - [67] Originally by: Cpt Tackle Edited by: Cpt Tackle on 25/04/2010 22:51:05 Originally by: Arvano I didn't mean carebear, I meant ****, and I wasn't referring to you personally, just in general. The person demanding the ransom is the only one doing wrong in this situation, so when ransom is demanded, no matter how the event may transpire, no matter what the person being extorted does, the pirate is still the only party doing something wrong. So, let me guess, if someone wrongs your character in some way -- no matter how minor, then anything goes when it comes to retaliation? That's how I see it... Although, at less than 3 months old, the retaliation is hardly likely to be anything worth docking up to hide from, is it.
Ka choop	Posted - 2010.04.26 22:44:00 - [68] Let's take it to real world again. If you make me sign a contract with a gun against my head, every judge will void the contract if I can prove I was forced to sign. There is no honor-match between aggressor and victim. I will say anything to get said gun removed from my head. For pirates on the other hand: if word gets out that no pirates honor their ransoms, victims are less likely to pay up. So it's bad for business to not honor them. There's no double standards, just two players in a very different situation. Last, a victim would be more inclined to pay ransoms afterwards if he's more likely to see you again. Because if he doesn't do it first time you're not going for that trick twice. But then again in that situation you're more a tollbooth then something else. Last: if he can't directly pay up, have him contract you a ship or two. A lot of players spend all their ISK on stuff the moment they get it and while not having big liquidity they do have valuable assets.
Cpt Tackle	Posted - 2010.04.27 02:07:00 - [69] Originally by: Ka choop Let's take it to real world again. If you make me sign a contract with a gun against my head, every judge will void the contract if I can prove I was forced to sign. If you insist... That situation has nothing to do with ship (and even pod) ransom though. A more accurate real world analogy would be me threatening to trash your car if you don't sign the contract. Not exactly nice of me but is not anywhere close to leaving you no choice. Originally by: Ka choop There is no honor-match between aggressor and victim. I will say anything to get said gun removed from my head. So what if i attack someone and they turn out to be stronger and I try and negotiate a ransom to avoid loosing my ship? If I promise to pay the ransom after they let me go, would it be OK if I break this promise? Who is aggressor and who is victim?
Sir Carnage	Posted - 2010.04.27 03:00:00 - [70] Edited by: Sir Carnage on 27/04/2010 03:00:14 Originally by: Cpt Tackle Originally by: Ka choop Let's take it to real world again. If you make me sign a contract with a gun against my head, every judge will void the contract if I can prove I was forced to sign. If you insist... That situation has nothing to do with ship (and even pod) ransom though. A more accurate real world analogy would be me threatening to trash your car if you don't sign the contract. Not exactly nice of me but is not anywhere close to leaving you no choice. You could threaten to break his favorite pencil or kill all his children, the only thing thing that changes is the potential consequence of a negative response from the victim. The choices remain the same. Originally by: Cpt Tackle Originally by: Ka choop There is no honor-match between aggressor and victim. I will say anything to get said gun removed from my head. So what if i attack someone and they turn out to be stronger and I try and negotiate a ransom to avoid loosing my ship? If I promise to pay the ransom after they let me go, would it be OK if I break this promise? Who is aggressor and who is victim? You're still the aggressor and they're still the victim. Roles don't change just because the aggressor is incompetent. However, the standards for ransom are still in play. If the victim isn't a pirate and does not seek these situations, whether or not they hono(u)r that ransom is enitrely up to them as there is no economic consequence to them for not hono(u)ring it. Whether or not they'd be subject to the same vitriol that pirates get for not hono(u)ring ransoms I cannot say. I'd assume yes. As for them releasing you on the understanding that you'd pay the ransom later, well there's more ambiguity here, but not much. Piracy is not a noble profession and the idea that one should pay after the fact is just silly. And, besides, extortion is extortion regardless of which side does it. support the parrot
Cpt Tackle	Posted - 2010.05.01 20:43:00 - [71] Originally by: Sir Carnage Edited by: Sir Carnage on 27/04/2010 03:00:14 And, besides, extortion is extortion regardless of which side does it. Tell that to IRS.
Umega Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.05.02 01:02:00 - [72] Sure it's a Double Standard. idk why this is even being debated. It is a simple answer jus' by looking at the mirror'd end results of both sides. That's all that really matters here and what ends up counting.. the end. The end being if a Pirate captures, requests ransom, gets ransom then proceeds to blow up the ship.. then that fellow is untrust-worthy and as the reputation spreads, he/she will have a hard time getting any ransom. If Pirate proceeds to let player go on premise that the now released player pays the ransom when in relative 'safety'. But then does not. That player does not follow their word, no honor in not following one's word, and thus is untrust-worthy. Rumors spread and that player is now likely to not be trusted to pay a ransom ever and will jus' get podded immediately. End result of both.. untrustworthy. No matter how you want to slice it, bottom line, either or.. one or the other is giving their word, and if they go against their word, that is being dishonorable. Really.. end of discussion without the misc variable crap that is irrelevent when you get to the end result of both. ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Anti Fundie Patrol	Posted - 2010.05.02 01:31:00 - [73] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 02/05/2010 01:31:23 If I did that to someone and then they payed it after being let go they would find a considerable sum appearing in their wallets, upwards of 1b edit: I am so going to do that one of these days Originally by:* Xen Gin Originally by: FOl2TY8 I know that some people like to have voluntary periods of abstinence. Yeah, I use that excuse too.
Aesynil Caldari The Unit...	Posted - 2010.05.02 05:37:00 - [74] I didn't read much of this thread. I once can-flipped a noob mining in a rokh, and in an odd moment of sympathy, told him "Okay, I hear that you have no ISK right now, so mine for a while, and once you get 20M ISK, send it to me" His ship was uninsured (OR so he told me), it was his only possession, etc, etc. He agreed, I let him go. I of course never saw the ISK, but I pretty much figured that. He was like a month old character, so I took pity. The Unit pursues invention, manufacturing, mining, and research. Evemail us if you need anything related to Science and Industry.
Athena Tarsis Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2010.05.02 07:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Cpt Tackle Err I don't think you understood what i meant. I meant "if I let them go now and they promise to pay me later": 1) They are very unlikely to honor their promise. 2) If they don't honor it, most people would think they did the right thing. Now if I hold them till they pay then dishonor my promise and blow them up anyway, most people will say what I did was wrong. That is what I am referring to as: "Double Standard". I disagree with your initial assertion. If they make a promise, and don't honor it, that's wrong. And, if a pirate takes ransom and doesn't honor it, he/she's wrong as well. No double standard.
I likegirls Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.02 07:58:00 - [76] Odds are very slim, because there is really nothing to lose if they do not pay. Pirates have something to lose if they do not follow through with the ransom, because their corp may have a rule about it and people may hear about the individual and not pay ransoms to him in the future.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.05.02 10:24:00 - [77] Originally by: Cpt Tackle Originally by: TigerXtrm Would be amazingly stupid of someone to actually pay you You could also say: "it would be amazingly stupid to let them go after they pay". How is it different? The decision about who should trust whom will rest with the party that's not scrammed, webbed and at 20% hull.
The AEther Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2010.05.02 11:10:00 - [78] Edited by: The AEther on 02/05/2010 11:12:40 Originally by: Cpt Tackle Err I don't think you understood what i meant. I meant "if I let them go now and they promise to pay me later": 1) They are very unlikely to honor their promise. 2) If they don't honor it, most people would think they did the right thing. Now if I hold them till they pay then dishonor my promise and blow them up anyway, most people will say what I did was wrong. That is what I am referring to as: "Double Standard". Most people will not see this as double standard because they apply real life ethics to this game. You see, by pirating someone you have broken "the law". And as such they would argue that "the law" no longer applies to you. It is same argument as with death penalty for example - it is ethical to kill a human being that has killed another human being. It is also ethical to pirate a pirate. Thus majority of people playing this game will feel justified not keeping their end of agreement if they know you are a pirate or scammer. And they will not think this is double standard of any sort. Agony Unleashed - zero blues 0.0 pvp, pvp classes
Cpt Tackle	Posted - 2010.05.02 22:06:00 - [79] Originally by: The AEther You see, by pirating someone you have broken "the law". And as such they would argue that "the law" no longer applies to you. Ahh the good old lawful==ethical argument.
Dreed Roberts	Posted - 2010.05.03 07:34:00 - [80] Edited by: Dreed Roberts on 03/05/2010 07:36:41 Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 02/05/2010 01:31:23 If I did that to someone and then they payed it after being let go they would find a considerable sum appearing in their wallets, upwards of 1b *edit: I am so going to do that one of these days wondering if this is just a honey trap to go flying in Surfin's space.... or if I should start flying something nice over their way and pretend to be broke....ah eve and your beautiful dilemmas. P.s Ethics are not universal they are simply a perspective that may or may not be held in common.
The AEther Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2010.05.03 18:37:00 - [81] Originally by: Cpt Tackle Originally by: The AEther You see, by pirating someone you have broken "the law". And as such they would argue that "the law" no longer applies to you. Ahh the good old lawful==ethical argument. Take law out of it. In real life as well as in game there is a contract between participants that goes "I will not murder and steal from you or otherwise harm you, if you do not murder and steal from me or otherwise harm me". That's basic ethics for you. As a pirate you break your part in this contract in game. Then you expect other players to still hold on to their side of agreement. With most players this ain't gonna fly for obvious reasons. If you don't get those reasons buy and read this book - it is quite short and will shed a lot of light on this for you. Agony Unleashed - zero blues 0.0 pvp, pvp classes
Ruhige Schmerz Valhalla Naval Corp Black Nova Federation	Posted - 2010.05.03 20:02:00 - [82] There is no double standard. Your moral equivalency is showing. Pirating is not an honorable profession, no matter how much lipstick you put on that pig. Adjust your scenario to see how it fails: I am a mugger out on the street. I stick a gun in your back and demand your wallet. You say it's inside and you have to run in and get it real quick, but you promise to come back and give it to me if I let you live. As a pirate, honoring ransoms makes future victims more likely to pay. Other 'honorable' pirates appreciate this. As a victim, paying the ransom (now or later) just encourages future acts of piracy.

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