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Vargur Vs Machariel?

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Mr Pentex	Posted - 2010.04.30 06:17:00 - [1] Hey fellow pilots! I realy need some help in a question of which way to go. Just as the topic says i dont know if i should train for the Vargur or the Machariel. The prime application for this ship will be mission runing. With the intention of earning some isk to get a buffer for later PvP, i only have one account ss this is the way it has to go. Could someone please help me out with some pros and cons with the two ships. Edit: spelling..
Ath Amon	Posted - 2010.04.30 07:46:00 - [2] personally i prefer the Var, but the Mach is pretty good too if you are going to loot then the Var is the clear winner as it will save lot of time, if not both will work pretty well... Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Mr Pentex	Posted - 2010.04.30 09:28:00 - [3] Originally by: Ath Amon personally i prefer the Var, but the Mach is pretty good too if you are going to loot then the Var is the clear winner as it will save lot of time, if not both will work pretty well... And when i go PvP, will the Var do as good as the Mach?
MarieFrance Tessier	Posted - 2010.04.30 10:53:00 - [4] Definitely Mach, speed and sensor strength both blow the vargur out of the water. Aside from the Kronos, Marauders aren't really so great for PVP. Mach also has the versatility of sporting an epic armor tank, though I prefer shield/Nano/TE fits.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2010.04.30 10:57:00 - [5] personally i will not pvp in any of them :P (too expensive for my taste) anyway the varg have the big weakness of sensor strenght so it will be easy to jam, mach is also faster that is never a bad thing in pvp even if the varg can get a vicius tank... the Mach imo offers a bit more for pvp, as it can RR, can be quite fast and so on... the Varg is a beast but in the end the difference with a crappastrom is not that big (and the crappa is insurable :P) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Mr Pentex	Posted - 2010.04.30 11:09:00 - [6] So, the bottom line is Vargur for missions and the Machariel for PvP.
JeChecke	Posted - 2010.04.30 11:30:00 - [7] IF you don't salvaloot yours mission, the machariel is better.
Kenpotchi	Posted - 2010.04.30 11:56:00 - [8] The Varg deffinety for missions. The only reasons why is less ammo usage, better base resis, and loot/salvage on the go. Mach for PvP because a well fit Mach has the speed and agility of a cruiser with the buffer and DPS of a Marauder. What more could yu ask for?
Iteken Hotori Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.04.30 12:26:00 - [9] If you need to ask. Don't fly a Mach into pvp.
Nu Wa	Posted - 2010.04.30 13:16:00 - [10] Edited by: Nu Wa on 30/04/2010 13:25:49 Mach would obviously be picked for PVP as people have mentioned. BUT I would still pick Mach, for PVE. 1) More DPS, no brainer. Not as ammo efficient as Vargar if you use RF ammo, BUT if you use LP to get RF ammo then the extra cost can be mitigated. 2) Much faster and agile, this allows you to get to gates faster and add some speed tank against the NPCs when the sh*t hits the fan. 3) Faster locking, very important. You can target switch and pick off frigates, cruisers much faster with a faster lock. Also, during gurista mission, you can get back to pounding much sooner if you re-lock faster after a NPC jam cycle. 4) Last but not least, Better looking. Only downside I see is the lack of tractor bonus. However, Mach does missions SOO fast that you'd be losing isk (isk vs. time spent wise) if you slow down and collect the loot... with a few exceptions in the cases of loot intensive missions like "Gone Berserk" or "Damsel in Distress" etc.

Calydonian Boar	Posted - 2010.04.30 13:19:00 - [11] mach is awesome for pvp, one of the best pvp bs's out there actually... agility / speed / dps / ability to fit heavy neut... its basically a vaga on steroids if you shield tank it... however it has several drawbacks: 1. if you shield tank it, you have to be becareful and not alone... your tank will be weak, you will rely on your facepalming dps and your piloting ability for gtfo situations... on the other hand armor tank is versatile and still much more agile and faster than any other bs, but dps is .. errhh.. ok... below it's potential which is unsatisfying 2. its shinny and golden :) unless you are fighting for some space or entity, fights are measured of how much damage you took and inflicted in ISK-wise... therefore when people see you in an uninsurable expensive ship, they will be like 'hey at least lets kill this one then we can thrash them local about losing our insurable t1 ships but taking out a possibly multi-billion ship out' :) risk is yours... all in all, imho isk is binary digits and fun is priceless, so go for mach, have your fun and die in glory if comes to that :) however if you want to make fast isk, go for vargur... loot and salvage is where the money is... then you can sell it and get a mach... marauders are easy to sell
Jita Dodixie	Posted - 2010.04.30 15:18:00 - [12] When people say "Sensor Strength" is better so npcs won't jam you it is very wrong. NPCs just jam, it's doesn't matter if you have 1000 or 1 sensor strength. I fly both ships, on missions I recive the same amount of jams on both. I don't salvage because it's not so good as it was. Have 2 tractors on Vargur. The thing is Macha do missions 5% faster then Var, but you spend x3 less time looting NPCs and stuff. Var also uses less ammo and have huge cargo which I like a lot. Anyways it's up to you, but IMO Var is a little better fer missions.
Dominatus Crispus Nation of Muppets	Posted - 2010.04.30 15:26:00 - [13] alot of good suggestions and reasons why already listed above... s no need to repeat whats already been said... vargur = pve mach = pvp
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.04.30 15:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Jita Dodixie When people say "Sensor Strength" is better so npcs won't jam you it is very wrong. NPCs just jam, it's doesn't matter if you have 1000 or 1 sensor strength. I fly both ships, on missions I recive the same amount of jams on both. Incorrect. It's been tested in game that ECCM/sensor strength reduces jamming: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1277798#11 Just noticed that the Mach also has a 125m^3 drone bay and 100 bandwidth. For PvE, that's four sentries for gratuitous, insult to injury, wound-salt-rubbing, additional firepower or five lights to deal with frigates. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Jita Dodixie	Posted - 2010.04.30 15:47:00 - [15] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Jita Dodixie When people say "Sensor Strength" is better so npcs won't jam you it is very wrong. NPCs just jam, it's doesn't matter if you have 1000 or 1 sensor strength. I fly both ships, on missions I recive the same amount of jams on both. Incorrect. It's been tested in game that ECCM/sensor strength reduces jamming: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1277798#11 Tested or not, I do recive the same amount of jams on missions. And have 0 problems with it. The only thing about Macha being better as "better vs jamming compared to Var" is scan resolution, after a jam you target back faster.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2010.04.30 16:38:00 - [16] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Jita Dodixie When people say "Sensor Strength" is better so npcs won't jam you it is very wrong. NPCs just jam, it's doesn't matter if you have 1000 or 1 sensor strength. I fly both ships, on missions I recive the same amount of jams on both. Incorrect. It's been tested in game that ECCM/sensor strength reduces jamming: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1277798#11 Just noticed that the Mach also has a 125m^3 drone bay and 100 bandwidth. For PvE, that's four sentries for gratuitous, insult to injury, wound-salt-rubbing, additional firepower or five lights to deal with frigates. anyway you are not going to stand still that much with a mach so the 4 sentries are not a biggie, also personally i prefer to not use drones as much as possible, anyway things go down in few volleys by the time heavies reach a target is probably alredy dead :P light drones are the only necessary ones and better to have a few backup rather than to go for 5 light/4 heavies (or sent) so lets say more likelly 10 light and 3 heavies and at that point is better to go for 5 medium ones that are faster for ecm i ran some tests a while back while playing a bit with the loki, indeed it seem that higher sensor strenght help with rats too, but the difference is not that big so probably there is some adjustation there... anyway is not that with the Var had much trouble with it, i get some nasty cycles sometimes but i used to get them with other ships too :P Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.30 17:09:00 - [17] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 30/04/2010 17:13:28 Originally by: stoicfaux Just noticed that the Mach also has a 125m^3 drone bay and 100 bandwidth. For PvE, that's four sentries for gratuitous, insult to injury, wound-salt-rubbing, additional firepower or five lights to deal with frigates. This still isn't enough to tip the scales at the moment. The Mach outperforms the Vargur only if you completely ignore the value of salvage and loot, however small you think that may be. I have a feeling the gap will be nonexistent after the next patch though, and that they'll be roughly equivalent to each other in isk/hour. Unless of course CCP is inordinately kind with what they replace Meta 0 drops with in the loot tables. ("Tags and metal scrap" was the last anyone heard. I wonder how it will actually work out...) ED: As for the whole ECM argument, yes the Vargur absolutely gets jammed more often. But why bother with that? Kill Angels and all you get is target painted.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.04.30 18:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Ath Amon light drones are the only necessary ones and better to have a few backup rather than to go for 5 light/4 heavies (or sent) so lets say more likelly 10 light and 3 heavies and at that point is better to go for 5 medium ones that are faster Wing1: 3x Berzerker II, 2x Valkyrie II Wing2: 5x Warrior II +1 spare -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.04.30 19:09:00 - [19] Mach has disgusting falloff potential with autocannons - 50-90km depending on the mods you fit. Also it has much higher damage potential than the Vargur. 7 turrets + 25% damage + 25% ROF > 8 turrets + ROF. In PVE at least you can **** everything in short order this way. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.30 19:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Mach has disgusting falloff potential with autocannons - 50-90km depending on the mods you fit. Also it has much higher damage potential than the Vargur. 7 turrets + 25% damage + 25% ROF > 8 turrets + ROF. It has 9.4% higher damage potential. Mach = 7 * 1.25 / .75 = 11.6667 turrets. Vargur = 4 * 2 /.75 = 10.6667 turrets. If you don't have Gallente BS V, its falloff is 10% worse. (I'm assuming Minmatar BS V for both, only fair since the Vargur requires it.) That is a respectable difference, but +9.4% DPS doesn't quite equal +9.4% completion time. And given the fact that salvage and loot can account for up to 20% of a mission's value, I still don't think it makes up for the Vargur's salvage-as-you-go ability. That is bound to change after the next patch, however. (If it matters at all for the record, I own both ships and also have Minmatar/Gallente BS V. <3 Vargur, even though I think the Mach is great.)

Real Poison Minmatar Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.	Posted - 2010.04.30 20:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Seriously Bored And given the fact that salvage and loot can account for up to 20% of a mission's value, I still don't think it makes up for the Vargur's salvage-as-you-go ability. That is bound to change after the next patch, however. what change are you referring to?
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.30 21:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Real Poison what change are you referring to? The great Meta 0 nerf of 2010, of course. No more mining with your guns. It's a good thing, IMO.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2010.05.01 08:06:00 - [23] yep the dps difference from cannons is just a 10% and Var has 37.5% more tracking, that imo count for close range dps and fast frig popping way more than 10% dps 3 heavies + 2 medium +6 light offer some backup, but personally i never found heavies to be that effective in missions if you have a ship with high dps, the problem is that they are sloooooow and the dmg is probably more than compensated by mid higher speed personally i'm going to stick witht he var even after the loot nerf, better tracking and tank imo more than compensate for a bit less gun dps and a bit more drone bay Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.05.01 09:09:00 - [24] mach = sex, thus it wins VOTE SOKRATESZ for an unforgiving, unique and exciting EVE!
Oneiros IV Stella Polaris.	Posted - 2010.05.01 10:08:00 - [25] Machariel is indeed the sexiest ship in game, regardless PVP common rule is "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" therefore creating reliable ISK buffer, as you call it, for losing machariels in pvp by running missions will take pretty much as long as learning every skill in eve to 5
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.01 20:21:00 - [26] Originally by: Ath Amon yep the dps difference from cannons is just a 10% and Var has 37.5% more tracking, that imo count for close range dps and fast frig popping way more than 10% dps This is an excellent point, one even us Vargur nuts forget to bring up. (It's usually 30% better tracking btw, just to be realistic.)
Zewdire	Posted - 2010.05.02 01:12:00 - [27] Edited by: Zewdire on 02/05/2010 01:12:46 If you take the slot layout, resists and everything else into consideration the Vargur wins for pve as more slots are free for gyros and range/tracking fitting. I whould like this fitting but for now it's a bit out of my reach 1k dps with faction ammo and the right hardwiring (without drones) and 74km fall off (111km with barrage), 1K dps omnitank with a full HG Crystalset. [Vargur, PvE] Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L Small Tractor Beam I Salvager II Salvager II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Hammerhead II x5 Hammerhead II x2
Aldarica Spinal Discipline	Posted - 2010.05.02 12:12:00 - [28] Edited by: Aldarica on 02/05/2010 12:13:29 Exactly the dilemma which is bothering me atm. After happily flying Maelstrom for quite long I feel it's time to move on to something better and make my missioning faster = more profitable. As I see it, Machariel with its insane dps and agility can chew through missions faster than Vargur but on the other side Vargur appears to be more suitable for soloing L4's IF I loot/salvage (one account only here as well, fact that won't change). Now I really can't tell is it better (isk/hour-wise) to get Mach, forget about whole loot/salvage thing and just run missions as fast as possible, compensating missing loot with increased rate of gaining LPs, or to go conservative and train for Varg.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.02 14:58:00 - [29] in that case try a Vargur and only loot the battleships. Thats probably the best way to "rush" 4's solo. This is clearly a signature.
Aldarica Spinal Discipline	Posted - 2010.05.03 08:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Cipher Jones in that case try a Vargur and only loot the battleships. Thats probably the best way to "rush" 4's solo. Yeah I think I will pick this option and see how it works.



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