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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:08:00 -
[1]
So it looks like there are two useful carriers, and two vanity station-camping carriers. I don't know how else to characterize logistics-oriented capitals with bonus to local repair.
Does that about sum it up? -- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
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Asruv'ynn
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:16:00 -
[2]
Sure I guess you can, though it really doesn't matter. They all have their uses.
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Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:17:00 -
[3]
Which ones are the useful ones, in your opinion?
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Last Wolf
Rage For Order
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:19:00 -
[4]
All the carriers are useful. Just get the one you think looks better (or the one you already have BS V for)
Oh no you don't! Incoming witty reply, ETA: 300 seconds! |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:32:00 -
[5]
Thanatos: 5% fighter damage per level Nidhoggur: 5% to amount of remote repair per level Archon: 5% bonus to armor resistances per level Chimera: 5% bonus to shield resistances per level
All other carrier bonuses are the same across races. Why aren't the Archon and Chimera racial bonuses geared towards fleet logistics? Just seems rather odd to me that they stand apart from the other two in that way.
-- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium Z.E.R.G
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel So it looks like there are two useful carriers, and two vanity station-camping carriers. I don't know how else to characterize logistics-oriented capitals with bonus to local repair.
Does that about sum it up?
You're funny. Especially since you think that fighter damage is more important than a resistance bonus. ________ Chicago players channel: 'Windy City'
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Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Thanatos: 5% fighter damage per level Nidhoggur: 5% to amount of remote repair per level Archon: 5% bonus to armor resistances per level Chimera: 5% bonus to shield resistances per level
All other carrier bonuses are the same across races. Why aren't the Archon and Chimera racial bonuses geared towards fleet logistics? Just seems rather odd to me that they stand apart from the other two in that way.
They all get a bonus to remote repair range (contrary to your note, these are different bonuses; Nid for example gets shield and armor, Chimera gets shield and capacitor IIRC); the Nid repairs slightly more HP than the Chimera or Archon but is significantly easier to destroy. So which of the three would you rather use as logistics in a hot fleet battle? In my mind it's a toss-up. Thanatos of course is the top choice for assigning fighters.
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium Z.E.R.G
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Thanatos: 5% fighter damage per level Nidhoggur: 5% to amount of remote repair per level Archon: 5% bonus to armor resistances per level Chimera: 5% bonus to shield resistances per level
All other carrier bonuses are the same across races. Why aren't the Archon and Chimera racial bonuses geared towards fleet logistics? Just seems rather odd to me that they stand apart from the other two in that way.
They all get a bonus to remote repair range (contrary to your note, these are different bonuses; Nid for example gets shield and armor, Chimera gets shield and capacitor IIRC); the Nid repairs slightly more HP than the Chimera or Archon but is significantly easier to destroy. So which of the three would you rather use as logistics in a hot fleet battle? In my mind it's a toss-up. Thanatos of course is the top choice for assigning fighters.
Assigned fighters do not receive the damage bonus. ________ Chicago players channel: 'Windy City'
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2010.05.03 22:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 03/05/2010 22:58:27
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker They all get a bonus to remote repair range (contrary to your note, these are different bonuses; Nid for example gets shield and armor, Chimera gets shield and capacitor IIRC);
Ahh, you're right.
Thanatos & Nidhoggur: Remote Shield and Armor repair range Chimera: remote shield and capacitor range Archon: remote shield and capacitor range
Thanny and Nid seem even more to come out on top as fleet logistics vessels. Who uses cap transfer aside from a pair of Guardians? Without an amount bonus, I don't think the carriers can do the endless capacitor trick a pair of Guardians can do. Or can they? (with skills?)
Quote: the Nid repairs slightly more HP than the Chimera or Archon but is significantly easier to destroy.
Is that really so? When you're talking about a million and change EHP, 10 or 20 thousand is significant? What if Niddy's only seem easier to destroy, because FC's believe they are easier to destroy, and so more often than not, primary them earlier in the battle when more DPS is available?
Quote:
So which of the three would you rather use as logistics in a hot fleet battle? In my mind it's a toss-up.
Well, my OP was a not-so-sneaky way of asking why would I want to get a carrier? I was hoping to provoke a controversy and get people to defend their favorite carrier. 'Cause if you just ask, people will tell you "If you have to ask, n00b..."
-- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium Z.E.R.G
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Posted - 2010.05.03 23:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Thanatos & Nidhoggur: Remote Shield and Armor repair range Chimera: remote shield and capacitor range Archon: remote shield and capacitor range
Archon is armor and cap.
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Is that really so? When you're talking about a million and change EHP, 10 or 20 thousand is significant? What if Niddy's only seem easier to destroy, because FC's believe they are easier to destroy, and so more often than not, primary them earlier in the battle when more DPS is available?
The Niddhoggur has ~60 to 70% the EHP of the Archon. It's a huge difference.
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Well, my OP was a not-so-sneaky way of asking why would I want to get a carrier? I was hoping to provoke a controversy and get people to defend their favorite carrier. 'Cause if you just ask, people will tell you "If you have to ask, n00b..."
If you want a carrier for fleet, the Archon and Nidhoggur are the two ideal choices. ________ Chicago players channel: 'Windy City'
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Backho
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Posted - 2010.05.03 23:21:00 -
[11]
No. they dont just lose "only 10-20 thousand of EHP"
without those resistances they lose larrrrrge ammounts o tankings. The difference might add to like 2 or 3 worth of dreadnaughts to tank just because of the resistance differences.
amar and caldari carriers are definitely better to roll into trage
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Tiger Prince
Minmatar Democracy of Klingon Brothers R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.05.03 23:22:00 -
[12]
I have toons that fly a Nidhoggur and a Thanatos. I like the Thanatos for the nice DPS bonus in fleets. I'm currently training the Nidhoggur for the Triage module for POS repping. Most people that train for a Carrier fit them to be cap stable with all mods running including energy xfer, so they make nice fleet Logistic platforms all the way arround, but generally the Archon is the best for use with a BS gang due to almost all fleet BS's I've seen are armor not shield tanked (and Amarr ships like the Aba and Apoc use tons of cap.) So it does depend on your preference really. They each have their roll and fill it well.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2010.05.03 23:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tiger Prince Most people that train for a Carrier fit them to be cap stable with all mods running including energy xfer...
That's a nice piece of info. My attempt at EFT-warrioring a Nidhoggur fit gave it two T2 Heavy Cap boosters. I guess that'd be Doing It Wrong(tm)?
-- Nah, that's just my Asperger's kickin' in.
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Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.03 23:55:00 -
[14]
/facepalm
looking at one attribute of a ship and ignoring all others then complaining how their imbalanced.
also calling fighter bonus fleet logistics..... this better be a troll ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker |
Tiger Prince
Minmatar Democracy of Klingon Brothers R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.05.04 00:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel That's a nice piece of info. My attempt at EFT-warrioring a Nidhoggur fit gave it two T2 Heavy Cap boosters. I guess that'd be Doing It Wrong(tm)?
The Nid is one of the hardest to make cap stable with all high slots running. (Notice the use of the word "most") Ships like the Archon or Chimera usually fit 2x Remote Rep or Shield xfer + 1x Energy xfer and 2x heavy neuts or smartbombs or one of each.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2010.05.04 01:03:00 -
[16]
Aside from the Hel, Wyvern and Thanatos(who all need a boost), I'd say all the carriers and supercarriers are pretty well balanced right now. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 938134
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.05.04 01:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Tiger Prince Most people that train for a Carrier fit them to be cap stable with all mods running including energy xfer...
That's a nice piece of info. My attempt at EFT-warrioring a Nidhoggur fit gave it two T2 Heavy Cap boosters. I guess that'd be Doing It Wrong(tm)?
From what I've looked at, putting Heavy cap boosters instead of cap recharges on armor tanked carriers gives some pros and cons
Pros- more cap per second, more neut resistant, quicker to get cap above 71%.
Cons- Only runs for as long as you have boosters (you can have a lot in the corp hanger, but it only lasts 14 minutes running IIRC), in laggy situations it won't reload or fire properly ------------------------
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.04 01:52:00 -
[18]
Fun with EFT: can either local rep or run 2x shield reps forever.
[Chimera, EFT Warrior Triage Fit] Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Cap Recharger Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Capital Shield Booster I
Triage Module I Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Large 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge Large 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
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Chale'aan
Gray Man Group IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.05.04 20:58:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Chale''aan on 04/05/2010 21:02:35 Don't pimp or fit any kind of faction/deadspace to triage carriers. T2 rigs, bad idea. Reason being: Triage carriers lack the ability to escape, and if someone really wants you dead, you're going to die.
Try this for a triage chimera:
[Chimera, Triage import 1] Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Capital Shield Booster I Shield Boost Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Capital Shield Transporter I Capital Shield Transporter I Triage Module I [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
2 highs to play with, I just leave it empty...
Also note: Triage mod is nearly impossible to burn out, check the amount of HP it has... |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2010.05.04 21:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Assigned fighters do not receive the damage bonus.
Trolling much? -- Thanks CCP for cu |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.04 21:07:00 -
[21]
IMO: - The Chimera would be the best fleet carrier if everyone wasn't so damn insistent on armor tanking. - Archon is the best fleet carrier, because it's armor tanked with a resist bonus and EHP matters in a big way. - Nidhoggur is the best POS repper hands down. It's also the carrier you want repping you but don't want to be in. It is the ideal smallish gang triage carrier, but really its local tank is too lacking to make a good triage carrier. - The Thanatos is a fantastic L5 mission runner and ratter.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Here Be Dragons
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Posted - 2010.05.05 02:45:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Is that really so? When you're talking about a million and change EHP, 10 or 20 thousand is significant? What if Niddy's only seem easier to destroy, because FC's believe they are easier to destroy, and so more often than not, primary them earlier in the battle when more DPS is available?
You would really doubt why a carrier with no resistance bonus and a remote repping bonus would get targetted 1st ?
Whats the true story with assigned fighters ? I hear so much conflicting information on that. Do they do base DPS while assigned ? Base DPS + the carrier pilots fighter skill ? The rumour I've heard the most is that the Thanatos DPS bonus does not apply to assigned fighters.
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium Z.E.R.G
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Posted - 2010.05.05 02:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Assigned fighters do not receive the damage bonus.
Trolling much?
Not really, considering that was a perfectly valid thing to say.
You? ________ Chicago players channel: 'Windy City'
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.05.05 03:12:00 -
[24]
There are three good carriers and the Thanny isn't any of them, since the Nid outclasses it in every way (aside from lulzPvE crap). *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
altyaltyaltyalt
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Posted - 2010.05.05 04:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Liang Nuren- Nidhoggur is the best POS repper hands down. It's also the carrier you want repping you but don't want to be in. It is the ideal smallish gang triage carrier, but really its local tank is too lacking to make a good triage carrier.[/quote
I can't find a triage Niddy fit that even comes close to the triage Archon in tank, amount repped, or cap stability. Care to help a brother out with a fit? It seems pretty far behind the Archon for triage no matter what criterea is used to judge, unless youÆre looking at how much shield it can rep; but thatÆd just be silly.
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Waxau
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.05.05 10:31:00 -
[26]
Chimera sucks, due to no one RR shield repping generally speaking in larger gangs.
Nid sucks for tanking, so no real use unless in a huge RR carrier gang.
Thanatos is awesome for frontline fighting, with lots of support; without it, it dies due to crappy tank
Archon = awesome, due to uber tank, armor reps, and being big.
Job done; next question.
Ps. As was stated, fighters dont get the thanatos damage bonus when assigned, so really no point using the thanatos for that. Unless ofcourse, you lack manbits to use it on the frontline :D
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Trebor Whettam
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Posted - 2010.05.05 12:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: altyaltyaltyalt
Originally by: Liang Nuren- Nidhoggur is the best POS repper hands down. It's also the carrier you want repping you but don't want to be in. It is the ideal smallish gang triage carrier, but really its local tank is too lacking to make a good triage carrier.[/quote
I can't find a triage Niddy fit that even comes close to the triage Archon in tank, amount repped, or cap stability. Care to help a brother out with a fit? It seems pretty far behind the Archon for triage no matter what criterea is used to judge, unless youÆre looking at how much shield it can rep; but thatÆd just be silly.
A lot of small low-sec gangs are a hodgepodge of shield and armor tankers.
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steave435
Caldari Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.05.05 13:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Trebor Whettam
Originally by: altyaltyaltyalt
Originally by: Liang Nuren- Nidhoggur is the best POS repper hands down. It's also the carrier you want repping you but don't want to be in. It is the ideal smallish gang triage carrier, but really its local tank is too lacking to make a good triage carrier.[/quote
I can't find a triage Niddy fit that even comes close to the triage Archon in tank, amount repped, or cap stability. Care to help a brother out with a fit? It seems pretty far behind the Archon for triage no matter what criterea is used to judge, unless youÆre looking at how much shield it can rep; but thatÆd just be silly.
A lot of small low-sec gangs are a hodgepodge of shield and armor tankers.
When carrier/logistic deployment is planned, only the extremely fail ones do...and even when not planning to to do so, the type of gang being run is almost always biased towards a shield or armor tanked ship, and when those ships are heavy (aka the only time you should deploy caps), that means armor.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.05 15:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: altyaltyaltyalt
I can't find a triage Niddy fit that even comes close to the triage Archon in tank, amount repped, or cap stability. Care to help a brother out with a fit? It seems pretty far behind the Archon for triage no matter what criterea is used to judge, unless youÆre looking at how much shield it can rep; but thatÆd just be silly.
I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how you're having this problem. Yes, absolutely the Archon has a better local tank (and EHP!) - but the Nidhoggur exceeds it in the most important respect - 3000 armor/2.5 sec/rep vs 3750 armor/2.5 sec/rep. Cap stability is roughly the same.
Like I said - the real kick in the nuts here is that the Archon has such a better local tank than the Nidhoggur that it will probably make sense to take a tankier Archon simply because of the likelihood of escalation!
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
steave435
Caldari Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.05.05 16:34:00 -
[30]
Have time for a more lengthy reply now. As you say, carriers are logistical platforms. That is why the Thanny is the second worst carrier (Chimera is worse simply due to the fact that the type of ships it will be deployed with armor tank 99% of the time, so the Chimeras shield reps are useless. If you get a shield BS/cap fleet, or if you're repping a pos, the Archon swap places with Chimera). The Nids RR amount bonus is ofcourse very useful for a ship dedicated to RR, and a resistance bonus gives a bunch of ehp as well as making RRs applied to it more effective.
Quote: Who uses cap transfer aside from a pair of Guardians?
Every pantheon fleet? Both standard and capital EE system skill apply, max skills it takes 1350 cap to activate and gives 2k...
Quote: Most people that train for a Carrier fit them to be cap stable with all mods running including energy xfer
No, they don't-_- You fit them to last a few minutes with everything running, and take down as much dps as you can in that time, so that when you need to start turning off some of your RRs, it's still enough. You need that burst in the start though...
Quote: /facepalm
looking at one attribute of a ship and ignoring all others then complaining how their imbalanced.
This...
Chale'aan's triage chimera is pretty good, although leaving the highs empty is ******ed. A smartbomb there can remove ALLOT of dps/neuting by taking down drones. A heavy neut in the other high can help you neut down a tackler when you exit triage and try to get out.
Quote: IMO: - The Chimera would be the best fleet carrier if everyone wasn't so damn insistent on armor tanking. - Archon is the best fleet carrier, because it's armor tanked with a resist bonus and EHP matters in a big way. - Nidhoggur is the best POS repper hands down. It's also the carrier you want repping you but don't want to be in. It is the ideal smallish gang triage carrier, but really its local tank is too lacking to make a good triage carrier. - The Thanatos is a fantastic L5 mission runner and ratter.
Except for the nid being the best small gang triage carrier, I agree completely. Lol at PVE in caps though.
Quote: I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how you're having this problem. Yes, absolutely the Archon has a better local tank (and EHP!) - but the Nidhoggur exceeds it in the most important respect - 3000 armor/2.5 sec/rep vs 3750 armor/2.5 sec/rep. Cap stability is roughly the same.
Yeah, but if you're fighting a small gang, you don't need a triage carrier in most cases, and if you do, then the archon can easily rep enough. My triage alt plus 1 more archon has held up our BS fleet against a 70 man hostile BS fleet. On the other hand, if it turns out that the "small" enemy fleet was actually a bait and becomes large enough to need the extra RR that a nid can get by sacrificing local tank, then that also means that the enemy fleet can simply go for the nid first and kill that pretty quickly. The Archon has more ehp and can perma tank about 50% more dps, and it can take a bunch of neuting and still be able to perma run its local tank while the nid start loosing tank from the first neut.
However, that does not mean that the nid is ****. By dropping to 2 RR instead of 3, it can get close to the archons tank and ehp, and the RR amount bonus means that it still reps the equivalent of 2.4-2.5 archon RRs. It still start loosing tank from the first neut though.
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