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Archdaimon
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Posted - 2010.05.07 18:42:00 -
[1]
So, how dare I write this you will ask no doubt. He only played for a few days - you say - he does not know all the posts previously presented. With what words can he possibly write something worth reading in this formidable forum.
Not much, I guess, but an idea... It might be the wrong place, might have been mentioned before and it might even be bad. Yet 'ere we go:
A lot of people not playing this game, played it and left or just plain hating it, identifies several reasons why this is:
1) A steep learning cliff. 2) An eternal grinding one way or the other 3) Not a lot of story missions, or those that there are very arbitrary, closely connected to part two. 4) The pvp grief.
Not all of these are weaknesses to the playing community, as it is how the game is designed and played, and this should not be change (or so I humbly believe). Yet of those things I think something could be done, to introduce EVE's great economic system to the less focussed player. Players in EVE create history themselves, there is not, like in lotro, an overall story arc which you play through. The story is your own, your corperation and your alliance. The sandbox world.
What I have been thinking is, would it not be possible to introduce some story elements, without breaking the sandbox, and how could that, if wanted, be done?
My beginning idea, which hopefully will result in a brainstorm of this community, is a special corperation hiring people. This is a NPC corperation with agents that create instances, yet with a very specific storyline. My thoughts to begin with is, that some new systems are found, in which and Alien race is. This new corperation (sorta like a concord offspring) is charge by exploring it. By hiring pilots a story will develop within this realm. All the equipment these player pilots need, are supplied by the rest of EVE, the rewards smaller than mining. If a good enough story could be created, a lot of players might stay in the game playing this story, that are right now turned off by the repetitiveness of the current agent missions. Lord of the Rings Online has a lot of very good story missions (WoW might as well, never tried it).
Again, this is not to change eve into something it is not, rather expand the oppertunity for different kind of players. Especially because the economic system and player controlled environments are great. But an NPC org. with story instances could be give a lot of extra to the game.
I am aware that most mmorpg use kill x, go fetch x etc. What sometimes make them more exiting than grinding is the story and theme. PvP has this in EVE of natural causes but the agent missions currently lack this greatly. This is ofcourse because you can't make differences in how the world look for different players as they are all supposed to be in the same place (this is what lotro does, my reference point). This is why an alien exploration theme comes to me, because it can easily be isolated from what is going on elsewhere, and without destroying what is.
A lot of things speak against it. One example would be "just play another game"... well EVE has so much to offer, what if we could accomplish more with it.
To sum up the whole rambling: Agent mission are currently where arbitrary and doesn't have a lot of "theme" and "spirit" except for grinding. adding more spirit to these mission might bring more players to the game, problem being how to do it. My suggestion is to created a special exploration corperation Hiring player pilots in which they can experience story instances ala lotro with fellow pilots.
(Me writing this during server downtime... there you go CCP... it your own fault this post is here)
Regards all Arch
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Culmen
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.05.07 18:46:00 -
[2]
Already In Game.
But I agree, they need more of them, and to make them more interesting.
You can also look up COSMOS constellations.
PS There are not instances in EVE (aside from individual systems, but that's just technological semantics). and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Bevil Smyth
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.07 18:49:00 -
[3]
EVE PvE is easily the games weakest facet, so any suggestions are welcome for CCP to look at imho.
Personally I think it could be jazzed up alot by "public" missions which create a beacon in system and give decent rewards to all, ppl can just turn up and join in the fun ;)
this could be taken even further by allowing players to accomplish different objectives as well as work as a team, or even be on opposite sides. the key is making it spontaneus so ppl dont have to **** around for ages getting it set up and finding others to go with. ============================ 2003 and still alive! |
Eglerlt
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Posted - 2010.05.07 18:54:00 -
[4]
Addition:
Also flashy videos of communication, motion graphic and other story elements would be great. Instead of go kill professor X, show some grafic why, let me feel like the badass merc. who kills without mercy, or give me an option to save his life and get in contact with another agent etc.
Give the player moral choices of actions in the game and the missions this leading to bad relations with some agents and good relations with new agents now found.
In the tutorial the pirate says: Come work for me...
A good mission actually gives me the option to do so...
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Ryhss
Caldari The Templar Navy SRS.
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Posted - 2010.05.07 18:55:00 -
[5]
"Go and fetch he 10 rat tails."
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Plocsk
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Posted - 2010.05.07 18:56:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Plocsk on 07/05/2010 18:56:38 Noone cares. The only purpose of PvE is to create easy targets for the PvPers. I could care less if mission runners have fun, just make sure they fit their ships expensively.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Archdaimon 1) A steep learning cliff.
Mandatory visualization.
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Clytamnestra
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:02:00 -
[8]
The big difference between this game and that other game, is that very little content has been created and give to you to play around with.
The thing you must realize is that you need to create your own game. Set up some goals and start working towards them. There's a lot of emergent fun coming out of every other player playing their own game.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Archdaimon This is a NPC corperation with agents that create instances [à]
This is why an alien exploration theme comes to me, because it can easily be isolated from what is going on elsewhere
No. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Eglerlt
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Plocsk Edited by: Plocsk on 07/05/2010 18:56:38 Noone cares. The only purpose of PvE is to create easy targets for the PvPers. I could care less if mission runners have fun, just make sure they fit their ships expensively.
Aye this be the problem if this be the general attitude.
Let me turn the box around: How about 10 more targets than 1 right now? How about 3 times the income for CCP to create a better game?
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Apoctasy
The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:06:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Archdaimon
A lot of people not playing this game, played it and left or just plain hating it, identifies several reasons why this is:
1) A steep learning cliff. 2) An eternal grinding one way or the other 3) Not a lot of story missions, or those that there are very arbitrary, closely connected to part two. 4) The pvp grief.
1. Learning curve comes from the massive amount of things to do. Good thing 2. Haven't grinded (ground?) a single day in my life. Plenty of isk to be made plenty of different ways. 3. Eve's stories are not created by the developers, but by the events and actions of the players. 4. Is pvp game. The best part.
In the end, you get out of this game what you put in it. If you treat it like a single-player space simulator, you will run lvl 4 missions until your heart gives out.
As you say yourself, Eve has so much to offer. Then why ignore everything and spend all your time in highsec running missions that exist solely to fund people's other activities? __________________________________________
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Gunnanmon
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:15:00 -
[12]
Never question anything about Eve. Thank you. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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David Grogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:18:00 -
[13]
i think an epic arc for explorers is needed........ the search for a wormhole that links to either jove space or even better terran space more importantly the Sol System where Earth is.
the journey could start off as level 1 epic arc but overtime (by doing so many explorations of worm space become steadily difficult (on a par with level 2 then 3 then 4 then eventually level 5).... by searching thru the vastness of wormspace players need to find clues that would eventually lead them to Earth or Jovian Space.
a back story about what happened to the terran empire following the collapse of the new eden wormhole could suggest it too suffered huge system wide damage on the earth side of the new eden wormhole and resulted in a great plague that ravished the terran empire which saw the death of trillions and earth had to close off its jumpgates within the terran empire in order to stop the s[pread of the plague reaching earth. (this could allow for a more sleeper like level of technology. (More advanced npc like sleepers but their overall tech would only be considered t3 level of tech so that they are not seriously overpowered) SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Eglerlt
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:23:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Eglerlt on 07/05/2010 19:24:24 Because it might add to the game. One thing is what the game does good now, another thing is to improve the game.
What wrong would it do if missions were not there only to fund other activities?
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shady trader
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Chribba Mandatory visualization.
Should the bulldozer not be pushing the bodies off the cliff to clear the area? Or have you got the special alchemy reaction that turns corpses into Velderspar optional and you need them to ramp up production ? Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:43:00 -
[16]
1) The steep learning cliff must stay. Removing the steep learning cliff would mean revamping the entire game and that will ruin EVE. The tutorial (You DID do the tutorial right? Cause the tutorial in EVE is more important than in any other game) is sufficient to get you started, and then from that point on you should either do a lot of reading or join a newbie friendly corp.
2) Every game in existence has a grind. You have to do some task repeatedly in order to gain rewards and in EVE's case you have to do some sort of task repeatedly in order to make ISK. Luckily, however, there are hundreds of different ways to make ISK in EVE, so you can train to do several of them and switch whenever one gets boring.
3) Agreed. EVE's missions are pretty bad. The mission related PVE in EVE has to be some of the worst I've ever experienced and I've played lots and lots of different MMO's.
4) The PVP grief is fine. This game revolves around PVP and what other games would consider "griefing" is just a part of life in EVE. EVE is hardcore, it's not fantasy land where every time you die you respawn with all your purples intact. If you take away any part of that, then it's not EVE anymore.
The only part of PVP that needs a change is the insurance fraud and that is changing with the next patch so everything will be fine.
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Avalloc
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:49:00 -
[17]
There is a thread in the New Citizens Q&A forum where people are posting feedback on New Player Experience. It is worth a read.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1312306
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Seraphima Laytose
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Posted - 2010.05.07 19:56:00 -
[18]
How about virtual battle simulations, ie scenarios. Not available at all times just certain times of the day there would be the chance to join in if you wanted to no matter where you were in the universe. Or make it go by each domain and the champion from each domain fights later in another tournament.
Maybe a bad idea to take away the risk of losing ships. But it would make a way to get some training and to put together unique scenarios that utilize pre-configured sets of ships against each other and to see how it turns out.
Also no premade groups, everyone joins as individuals and is assigned to teams at random.
I love the steep learning curve and would like to see it get more complex over time. I for one have thought that the 4 empires should have made contact with other empires at the other sides of 0.0 space by now. Would they also be human in appearance? Yes or no, they would surely have entirely new sets of ships and technology to learn.
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Eglerlt
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Posted - 2010.05.07 20:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne 1) The steep learning cliff must stay. Removing the steep learning cliff would mean revamping the entire game and that will ruin EVE. The tutorial (You DID do the tutorial right? Cause the tutorial in EVE is more important than in any other game) is sufficient to get you started, and then from that point on you should either do a lot of reading or join a newbie friendly corp.
2) Every game in existence has a grind. You have to do some task repeatedly in order to gain rewards and in EVE's case you have to do some sort of task repeatedly in order to make ISK. Luckily, however, there are hundreds of different ways to make ISK in EVE, so you can train to do several of them and switch whenever one gets boring.
3) Agreed. EVE's missions are pretty bad. The mission related PVE in EVE has to be some of the worst I've ever experienced and I've played lots and lots of different MMO's.
4) The PVP grief is fine. This game revolves around PVP and what other games would consider "griefing" is just a part of life in EVE. EVE is hardcore, it's not fantasy land where every time you die you respawn with all your purples intact. If you take away any part of that, then it's not EVE anymore.
The only part of PVP that needs a change is the insurance fraud and that is changing with the next patch so everything will be fine.
You miss understand me (as a lot of people seem to do)! As I wrote a lot of things should not be changed. The only subject I want to change is number 3, that everyone seems to agree with is not good enough: PvE has to be better and more exiting than it is now! There need to be more constructive suggestions how to make this better, that to ask me if I did the tutorial. Would I have bothered writing all this if I did not care to play the game?
I tried one suggestion, but most seem to focus on the things that should not change PvP, tutorial, learning curves whatever. That is not the point of this, neither to make me like the game more... I already enjoy.
What I want to do, is to make a part of the game, that does not work well, work better.
PvE improvements suggestions... My suggestion so far: 1) NPC corperation that create storylines not affecting other players, 2) more grafical storytelling, less tekst 3) Player choices, not just shot-die, but moral choices like shot or not shoot? Join this guy or the other guy 4) Maybe even having PvE choices having PvP results. Taking a job from an agent, result in an encounter with another play who got another job from a different agent.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.05.07 21:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Eglerlt What wrong would it do if missions were not there only to fund other activities?
I agree with this. Missions should be fun in their own right, not just a boring grind done so that you have money to have fun with later.
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Dian'h Might
Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.05.07 22:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Archdaimon 1) A steep learning cliff.
I play this game because of that. (and it flattens out a lot once you get the concepts). The learning curve also helps keep the average IQ of the population higher than certain other MMOs.
Originally by: Archdaimon 2) An eternal grinding one way or the other
You're doing it wrong. In 2 years of playing the only times I've had to grind were missions to get some L4 agents (took about 20-30 hours over a month or so), and then 0.0 rats for a week after suicide podding someone by accident.
Originally by: Archdaimon 3) Not a lot of story missions, or those that there are very arbitrary, closely connected to part two.
This is probably the only thing I'd agree with you on, and only partially at that. Eve is a pvp game. The point is to interact with other players. Not grind missions until you have enough isk to buy better stuff so you can grind more missions to get more stuff to grind more missions.
Originally by: Archdaimon 4) The pvp grief.
The "pvp 'grief'" is exactly why I kept playing eve, and why I continue to play it to this day.
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Eglerlt
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Posted - 2010.05.07 22:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dian'h Might
Originally by: Archdaimon 1) A steep learning cliff.
I play this game because of that. (and it flattens out a lot once you get the concepts). The learning curve also helps keep the average IQ of the population higher than certain other MMOs.
Originally by: Archdaimon 2) An eternal grinding one way or the other
You're doing it wrong. In 2 years of playing the only times I've had to grind were missions to get some L4 agents (took about 20-30 hours over a month or so), and then 0.0 rats for a week after suicide podding someone by accident.
Originally by: Archdaimon 3) Not a lot of story missions, or those that there are very arbitrary, closely connected to part two.
This is probably the only thing I'd agree with you on, and only partially at that. Eve is a pvp game. The point is to interact with other players. Not grind missions until you have enough isk to buy better stuff so you can grind more missions to get more stuff to grind more missions.
Originally by: Archdaimon 4) The pvp grief.
The "pvp 'grief'" is exactly why I kept playing eve, and why I continue to play it to this day.
I repeat, if you read my post you would see that I never said 1,2 and4 is bad. This I love to. Again it seems we agree on part 3...
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Aldarica
Spinal Discipline
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Posted - 2010.05.07 23:21:00 -
[23]
Yeah missions are dull and boring but there's a reason for that: they're of secondary importance for overall gameplay and CCP doesn't care too much about them, nor should imo. After all, this is a PvP oriented sandbox game, not theme park like LoTRO. You make your own story - is it interesting or not depends only on you. EVE is a mirror of your own imagination.
Most things other than fluff which OP suggested (choices and consequences, basicly) are supposed to be experienced on much higher level through interaction with other players. Oh and OP mentioned instanced missions: that would be one of the worst things to happen and I strongly believe CCP will never even think about it.
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Archdaimon
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Posted - 2010.05.07 23:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Aldarica Yeah missions are dull and boring but there's a reason for that: they're of secondary importance for overall gameplay and CCP doesn't care too much about them, nor should imo. After all, this is a PvP oriented sandbox game, not theme park like LoTRO. You make your own story - is it interesting or not depends only on you. EVE is a mirror of your own imagination.
Most things other than fluff which OP suggested (choices and consequences, basicly) are supposed to be experienced on much higher level through interaction with other players. Oh and OP mentioned instanced missions: that would be one of the worst things to happen and I strongly believe CCP will never even think about it.
It is a rather sharp claim that Instances would destroy eve, what are your grounds for claiming that?
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Aldarica
Spinal Discipline
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Posted - 2010.05.07 23:42:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Aldarica on 07/05/2010 23:42:16
Originally by: Archdaimon It is a rather sharp claim that Instances would destroy eve, what are your grounds for claiming that?
CCP has been developing EVE as strictly non-instanced from the first day and that's one of the reasons I (and perhaps vast majority of community) love it. Asking for instances is like asking for completely different gameplay. Instanced missions would go against very basis EVE is built on: no one can be separated from the rest of the world, ever. If you're out there doing whatever your thing is, I should be able to reach you this way or another. No artificial barriers please... not in this game.
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Eglerlt
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Posted - 2010.05.08 00:14:00 -
[26]
I can see where you are coming from. And I understand why instances might be bad. However, if we take the special story element from instances, the good voice acting, nice grafic introduktions etc.
So what were back at is more care for the missions. Maybe they are still fetch x and y, but they need more flashy grafics, more choices similar to those in pvp, in other words more "feeling"...
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fweepa
Gallente F and A Supply
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Posted - 2010.05.08 00:34:00 -
[27]
Edited by: fweepa on 08/05/2010 00:36:22
Originally by: Bevil Smyth EVE PvE is easily the games weakest facet, so any suggestions are welcome for CCP to look at imho.
Personally I think it could be jazzed up alot by "public" missions which create a beacon in system and give decent rewards to all, ppl can just turn up and join in the fun ;)
this could be taken even further by allowing players to accomplish different objectives as well as work as a team, or even be on opposite sides. the key is making it spontaneus so ppl dont have to **** around for ages getting it set up and finding others to go with.
Isn't that what Faction Warfare is?
Also, i agree with the PVE needing more spice, but i've noticed that Eve is built and designed on the player to player interaction. I've been corpless for about a month now and its starting to get really lonely :( you just simply HAVE to have people to play with, PVE mission running or not. Its just the way the game is played. But it would be nice to cater to the lone wolf peeps...
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.05.08 00:47:00 -
[28]
OP, I think there are many people (including myself) who would love to see the PVE aspect of EVE get more attention. I'm sure over the years CCP has thought up and received many ideas on this subject. I couldn't agree more that something should be done, and maybe CCP actually will do something in the future.
Also, just know that on these forums (esp General Discussion) there is a very large, very vocal, and very aggressive group of folks, PvP enthusiasts if you will, who will snap at anyone and anything they perceive as threatening to their preferred playstyle. So don't think you are all alone. It's just that most people who would have agreed with you have probably been scared off and avoid this particular corner of the interwebs. |
Mr SmartGuy
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Posted - 2010.05.08 05:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Archdaimon A lot of people not playing this game, played it and left or just plain hating it, identifies several reasons why this is:
1) A steep learning cliff. 2) An eternal grinding one way or the other 3) Not a lot of story missions, or those that there are very arbitrary, closely connected to part two. 4) The pvp grief.
So, let me get this straight. You ideal game would be: 1) No learning curve at all - you were just born to play the game, it feels so natural. 2) No grinding. You can kill one rat and buy yourself a dozen of ships. 3) A lot of story line missions - hell let every second one be storyline since you hate to grind for standings. 4) No one can shoot at you if you don't want to be shot at. It would be ideal that there would be non-PvP areas like in all those games for teenagers.
But I guess you haven't tried to solve those 4 problems you have. 1) wiki.eveonline.com / eve-guides.com / eve-agents.com / EveMon tool / EFT (Eve fitting tool) <-- with these you can learn piece by piece of the game. If that doesn't help, join a corporation that is training new players, like Eve University for example. This game is great because after 4 years of playing I still have much to learn.
2) R&D agents can give you 100 mil ISK a month of static income. POSes (Player owned structures) can give you unlimited amount of ISK a month - the more you invest in blueprints, the more you will get. All you have to do is fuel the POS once a month and pick up researched blueprints/blueprint copies once a day or once in a couple of days (depending on the type of blueprint and research job). The next thing is manufacturing. All you have to do is put a buy order for minerals, buy a blueprint and start the manufacturing job. When it's done just pick the item and sell it. 2 minutes of work in total. If all that doesn't help, you can even try your luck with inter-regional or inter-state trade. And on top of all that, Tyrannis expansion brings even more static income with Planetary interaction. Grinding you say? Where?
3) If you don't like the amount of storyline missions because you can't grind faction standing fast, you should visit your state's Data Center and buy your standings for tags. Also, doing COSMOS missions helps - plus COSMOS missions have a nice story. If you want MORE stories in missions, do Epic Arcs. You have 4 COSMOS mission series (all empire states have one) and 7 Epic arcs. I dare you to do them all in less that 3 months. And if you want even more story about Eve, read the Chronicles on this site.
4) PvP grief? Apart from suicide ganking, you are perfectly safe in an NPC corporation - and even in suicide ganks you can be a victim if you are afk mining or hauling stuff. The solution is simple - don't afk mine, always stay aligned to a station and you'll be ok. And hauling... if you're that scared that someone will pop your industrial ship full of valuable items, make a courier contract and let others take the risk. The other solution would be to never carry more than 50 mil in the cargo hold.
In the rest of your texts you described COSMOS and Epic Arc mission chains.
Again, your problems with the game were?
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.05.08 05:25:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Zartrader on 08/05/2010 05:30:32
1) A steep learning cliff.
It's why I play the game. In another game I played people were continually asking for the game to be dumbed down and it became unplayable for me. Some of us like complexity and having to think. We do not see it as a job but a focus of enjoyment and satisfaction. I certainly agree the game could do more to teach new players, and CCP recognise that as they have revamped the tutorials several times, but there will be a point where it's make or break for a player. I found the UI was the worst issue for players I introduced as it was very non intuitive and inconsistent, which gave complexity far beyond what was really there.
If this game were dumbed down most would leave and it would lose a lot of very good concepts only a complex game can provide (try Planetary Interaction in another game and the majority would moan and cry). I love the fact the game can have depth because the players like that rather than moan about it.
2) An eternal grinding one way or the other
I never grind, never did. That's a function of not knowing what you can do in the game and you assume missions is the only source of income. You never have to grind but you do have to think and play smart. This will come with time.
3) Not a lot of story missions, or those that there are very arbitrary, closely connected to part two.
Agree, PVE sucks. Instancing would be terrible though but it won't be obvious why until you have played the game some time. Many MMO players are now PVE/PVP players and happily switch between the two, the game does not reflect this and I think it's something which will keep EVE niche unless it's changed. Epic arcs go some way but there are so many amazing concepts they could introduce. PVP players that moan about this seem to ignore the fact it will bring in more easy prey for them.
4) The pvp grief.
I disagree even though I'm a carebear. The fact people are out to get you is a core part of the game and adds to the fun and excitement in many things I do. In EVE you only get griefed when you make a mistake. Also being griefed is a state of mind. Your grief is my 'oh, what did I do wrong to allow that?' Being a victim in EVE is a choice, we must learn how not to be a victim or fail and I like that. I got very bored of games where there were no consequences for your actions, like we were all little kiddies who cried when our rattle broke. As an example I was recently suicide ganked even though I had no worthwhile cargo. That made me rethink what I was doing, look at new fits and the experience was not only good fun but taught me how to fly better. In EVE nothing is permanent and that's its core strength.
EDIT: Eve is a strange game. The more you play it the more you understand it and therefore the more you can do and the more likley you will stay. This is a natural barrier to new players, especially those who come with misconceptions from other games or misunderstanding the mechanics (like assuming training is like levelling up or you can't catch up with older players, common new player errors)
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