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missle boats in pvp

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David Karakin	Posted - 2010.05.18 20:22:00 - [1] So, I've been having this discussion with some guys in my alliance, and most of them think that missile boats are pretty useless in pvp, in roams, small and large fleets. So, does everyone else agree? Are they useful, have limited roles, or are just expensive pieces of ****?
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.05.18 20:33:00 - [2] Torp ships are battleship-grinding machines. Currently the FI typhoon is second only to the freaking Vindicator for BS-melting massacre. Sure, they're closerange and don't hit smaller stuff very well, but w/e. HMLs and HAMs are good. However, since you said alliance I'm going to assume your small gang is 50 people and it scales from there, so they're probably useless for you. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.05.18 21:20:00 - [3] HAM Tengu is pretty impressive for roaming pvp
Queue K'Umber	Posted - 2010.05.18 22:03:00 - [4] Originally by: David Karakin So, I've been having this discussion with some guys in my alliance, and most of them think that missile boats are pretty useless in pvp, in roams, small and large fleets. So, does everyone else agree? Are they useful, have limited roles, or are just expensive pieces of ***? Your alliance mates are right. Nobody ever dies to missiles in PVP combat. In fact, missiles are so terrible that they actually repair the ships they hit. There are only two real shortcomings. One is flight time and the other is that it is still possible to bookmark a recently launched missile and warp nearby the ship that launched it. *Have not yet reverified this on the test server.
Gecko O'Bac Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS	Posted - 2010.05.18 23:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Queue K'Umber Originally by: David Karakin So, I've been having this discussion with some guys in my alliance, and most of them think that missile boats are pretty useless in pvp, in roams, small and large fleets. So, does everyone else agree? Are they useful, have limited roles, or are just expensive pieces of ***? Your alliance mates are right. Nobody ever dies to missiles in PVP combat. In fact, missiles are so terrible that they actually repair the ships they hit. There are only two real shortcomings. One is flight time and the other is that it is still possible to bookmark a recently launched missile and warp nearby the ship that launched it. *Have not yet reverified this on the test server. Damn... I knew that you could select and even get to zoom on flying missiles since they are temporary objects... But bookmark them? Hell, didn't know this one. Back on topic... Missiles are not bad, like Queue said the only real shortcoming is flight time, and that matters only in cases where distance is huge or the target is likely to be alpha'ed. This means that a cruise raven is not really welcome in a sniping fleet, though a roaming gang of BSs should welcome a torp raven with no problems since it has quite sick dps and from a decent range given the range bonus. On the middle sized launchers there's nothing to say... Both HMs and HAMs are very good weapons and there's not much to complain about... A HAM drake is a dps monster (500+ dps, up to 600 and more if you go for gank more than tank) with a lot of HPs as well. A HM drake is a staple of any support fleet with impressive (100k ehp, more than many bss) buffers and good dps at range (short medium and semi long range without losing dps). A cerberus can actually get as much range as a sniping bs with heavy missiles, though imho it's not that useful. A simple caracal with assault missiles (not heavy assault) is almost death incarnate for any frigate that enters its (quite impressive) range, and for even less money than a humble ceptor. The real problem with missiles are the "low weights", meaning that in frigate combat missiles are almost always outdone in every aspect ('cept range though there are exceptions to that as well) by turrets since the dps doesn't really shine and due to the damage reduction formula (and possibly an incorrect formula for rockets as well) and the generally high speed of the favourite targets (IE: frigates). Their damage gets reduced very fast and can't be compensated for with manual piloting skills (which are not common but not impossible to achieve either). It must be said though that the main reason why missiles suck on frigate hulls is because of the hull themselves, which are often badly designed. So, 'cept for the frigate size (where they are not that good but ARE useful), missiles are indeed good weapons, you just have to know when and how to use them. Oh... Just to point out: I used caldari ships because they're the ones I know better and also the most likely to be used as missile ships, but there are other important missile users out there, like the khanid (IIRC) T2 amarr ships and some minmatar ships (torp nano phoon was a veritable nightmare... Now it's a bit less so but not due to missiles but due to the nano nerf)
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2010.05.19 00:02:00 - [6] The guys in your alliance are pretty clueless. Solo and in small gangs, missiles are perfectly fine. Chances are you're going to be within 20-30km of the target in these situations, so the flight time isn't really a factor. Torps murder battleships. HAMs do fantastic damage. Heavy Missiles I'm less keen on but they still do rather well. Light missiles will murder anything frigate sized and have nice range. Large blobs I can't tell you, I have no experience (or interest) in those kinds of fights.
Gecko O'Bac Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS	Posted - 2010.05.19 00:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Andrea Griffin The guys in your alliance are pretty clueless. Solo and in small gangs, missiles are perfectly fine. Chances are you're going to be within 20-30km of the target in these situations, so the flight time isn't really a factor. Torps murder battleships. HAMs do fantastic damage. Heavy Missiles I'm less keen on but they still do rather well. Light missiles will murder anything frigate sized and have nice range. Large blobs I can't tell you, I have no experience (or interest) in those kinds of fights. Not really sure about other races, but if you're using missiles in a large blob it means that either you're flying a missile ceptor/destroyer (in which case it doesn't really matter if you even fire or not, that's not your objective) or you're flying in the support group (unless you're flying a caldari dread/titan :P), in which case it means you've just entered the dirtiest and most chaotic skirmish you'll ever see in space (or the most ridiculous turkey shoot...). Basically with "support fleet" we categorize any ship that isn't a tackler, specialized ew, sniping bs or capital ship. Possibly even some EW might end up in support since the powerful nerf of now oh so long ago. This means that it's a "OH **** WTF?" fleet with a lot of different engagement ranges, tactics, preferred targets and so on. Basically an annoyance to send in the general direction of the enemy to slow (and possibly destroy) their support fleet (because they are chaotic but it often counts for most of the numbers of large fleets, meaning that it still has a considerable firepower). All of this means that basically in support fleets you're on your own after the first couple minutes of the battle... You're free to engage what you can and how you can. So, missiles are fine and HM at that do quite well since you can be sitting pretty much out of range from most of the rest of the support fleet. It also means that even if the enemy closes up on you you're going to hit exactly as well as if you were at your maximum range. So missiles are good even in large fights, though in the first few minutes you will often have your target killed before the missiles strike.
Devil tiger	Posted - 2010.05.19 07:17:00 - [8] Missiles aren't a complite waste though. If your ship is very fast you can use your Torps/Hams from very close to mid ranges easy enough without having to worry about transversials, tracking etc. like your turret using opponents have to. The flight time isn't that much of a factor when you are almost hugging your opponents hull... But in big fleets and long distances, yeah missiles really aren't that hawt.
Merrick Tolkien 0utbreak	Posted - 2010.05.19 10:50:00 - [9] I would say in small scale yes, in large fleets/blobs no, targets are dead before the missiles hit. Cerb can be fun in sniper HAC gangs. Topics open on BattleClinic as well, here BattleClinic Community Manager
Zeta Zhul Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.19 15:58:00 - [10] Edited by: Zeta Zhul on 19/05/2010 16:07:13 Edited by: Zeta Zhul on 19/05/2010 15:58:44 Originally by: Gecko O'Bac ... Damn... I knew that you could select and even get to zoom on flying missiles since they are temporary objects... But bookmark them? Hell, didn't know this one. ... 1. You can bookmark missiles, even your own. Steps: a. open People & Places window, change tab to bookmarks b. quickly click on missile and select it, but do not bother trying targeting it c. click on the "Add Bookmark" button in the People & Places window d. you now have a bookmark referenced as a "Spot in blah blah blah system" note: you can't use the right mouse click context menu because the missiles are moving and you can't keep the mouse cursor on the missile properly. so that's why I suggest using the People & Places window. It's fairly straightforward and possibly useful. As long as you're beyond the minimum warp distance you can even warp to it. Or you can drag the BM to your inventory and treat it like any other object. Perhaps you want to transfer it to someone, a tackler perhaps or even a BS tackler/disco, who can then warp in directly on top of the enemy ship(s) and give them the surprise of their lives. The issue is of course the difficulty in actually transferring the BM because you either have to jetcan it, dock & contract it or some other clumsy method. Pity you can't evemail the silly thing but there you go. edit: In PVE another possibility is to fire a single missile at a enemy target or a neutral target (such as a veldspar rock) that won't invoke CONCORD so you can bookmark something that is rather far away. If assuming the mission doesn't prevent it you can bookmark near a distant gate or an enemy that is far away you can then warp out and warp back to the BM instead of having to fly that distance. No idea if you can fire a missile at a accel/warp gate without CONCORD intervention but it's worth a try on Sisi. 2. You can use smartbombs as an anti-missile defense. Funny thing too. As an example Heavy or Cruise missiles have 70 Structure points. So a SB that does at least 70pts damage, which means nothing smaller than a Medium SB, will destroy any and all missiles within it's radius of effect. That means multiple volleys of incoming missiles can be completely eliminated by a single Medium SB if you time it right. Generally I turn off auto-repeat and do this manually. There is a few seconds delay between activation of the SB and the outgoing SB damage wave so you have to practice the timing. But if you get into a rare synchronization of incoming missile volleys/waves you can eliminate an amazing amount of missile damage. For practicing I went on Sisi test server and whipped up a disco BS, got a level 4 mission and then just sat there and did my best to destroy incoming missiles. Took a little time but the timing is easy to pick up. ... So yeah. For pvp missiles have issues. ----- place witty signature line here
Aiwha Caldari Space Marine Academy	Posted - 2010.05.19 16:21:00 - [11] Drake blobs can be a fearsome thing. imo, missiles are wonderful if the whole fleets using them, or your at short range. Otherwise, I'd have to agree with the above posters on mixed weapon fleets. --------------------------- http://bcwarfare.blogspot.com/
ICU Now	Posted - 2010.05.19 20:08:00 - [12] The funny thing about the people that talk about how bad missiles are, usually don't fly missile boat races. I have a corpmate that tells me how bad they are but is scared of fighting a HAM Drake with his BC. All items in Eve have bonuses / shortcomings (a sci fi internet version of Rock Paper Scissors, remember?). Missiles are no different. Above poster(s) are right in that large missile vs. the small targets generally do not do well...and visa versa (little missiles vs. big targets). I fly Caldari and Mimnatar - there are good and bad things about both races' weapons and ships. Just learn the positives of your preferred weapon type coupled with your ship of choice, work your strategy around it and you will do fine. I have seen more KM's because of fail flying / fits than I have based upon racial weapon qualities...
MIDI ION	Posted - 2010.05.19 21:32:00 - [13] My take on the subject is this... I am gallente and cross trained over to Caldari once I discovered the joys of missiles..... Missiles have only Range to worry about... there is no falloff so once your tgt is in range it's fire and forget... none of this "oh he closed in on me i have to switch up to any one of 6 different types of ammo BS" that you have to deal with in gun boats... ALSO oh no he is running EWAR he has me jammed i cant tgt lock him.... NO Problem FOF missiles for the win..... EWAR worries are a thing of the past... or better yet "oh $#!+ he somehow has a neut domi that was unaffected by the neut nerf...." no worries yet again because unlike gunbaots and dumba$$ lasers missiles dont require Cap to fire so even if you are getting neuted to all hell and beyond your guns will not go offline you will keep firing to the bitter end and in the end that continued damage MIGHT just be enough to put you on top in the end... Nothing wrong with missiles they do as they are intended.... and that's deal out pain. granted they have their are limitations but.... then again what weapon system doesn't
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.05.20 06:31:00 - [14] Great thread. I use missiles almost exclusively but the SB idea sound good - beats Defender missiles (Hey, weren't there Defender II missiles once? Now? I never see them). So, what is the best way to get the most DPS out of missiles? What is "good dps" from one missile? Naturally the right missile on the right speed target will show good damage, but what are good modules and implants and skills to have to really squeeze out the DPS on a missile boat?
MIDI ION	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:12:00 - [15] the skills are a no brainer just look in the missile skills list and you will see the ones that are obviously going to help.... other than that BCU's For the win... Ballistic Control Units they make all things missle go bang for the better.. on top of that you can add some tgt painters to beef up your huckleberries Sig radius then boom bo boo boom boom...
Von Kroll Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:20:00 - [16] Train Target Navigation Prediction and Guided Missile Precision to Lvl 4 minimum, Lvl 5 preferred, especially TNP. Speed is the biggest factor in the missile damage formula, so if you can web your target, typically its better than painting it. Personally, I believe there is a way to use missiles in large sniper fleet fights, but it would take a very disciplined and organized fleet to accomplish it, which is something that is rarely found in EvE. It wouldn't hurt if they added flight time to gun rounds as well. Its odd that such a huge component of the skill tree has such limited use.
MIDI ION	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:35:00 - [17] Originally by: Von Kroll Speed is the biggest factor in the missile damage formula, so if you can web your target, typically its better than painting it. IIRC they changed this recently to make Sig Radius much more important... webbing can't hurt but then again it usually uses more grid and cpu and cap and painters help the rest of your fleet just as well as a web does when it comes to hitting the tgt and dealing damage... that and you don't have to get nearly as close with painters as you do with webs..... it allows you to stand off a bit more which is very nice if someone in the fleet is using sensor damps... they may not be able to tgt you at all. where as webs are an up close and personal thing....
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.05.20 18:27:00 - [18] This business about bookmarking and smartbombing missiles, lol. Try either in a fleet engagement. If you don't die by enemy fire while trying to "bookmark a missile" with effects off, etc, etc your fleetmates will prolly primary you for bombing them like a n00b. I've managed just fine so far with a cerb in HAC gangs. Lost 1 in battle, got ganked with another. Sometimes you get on a mail for 0 damage. Other times you alpha stealth bombers. The same thing happens when I fly a zealot, 0 dmg on a killmail. So meh, killmails are informative not definitive. If I had a choice between a zealot or cerb for a lr hac gang...I'd take the cerb everytime.
Zeta Zhul Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.21 17:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Indeterminacy This business about bookmarking and smartbombing missiles, lol. Try either in a fleet engagement. If you don't die by enemy fire while trying to "bookmark a missile" with effects off, etc, etc your fleetmates will prolly primary you for bombing them like a n00b. ... shrug it's more in the way of a FYI than anything else. ----- place witty signature line here
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.05.21 21:17:00 - [20] Originally by: MIDI ION Originally by: Von Kroll Speed is the biggest factor in the missile damage formula, so if you can web your target, typically its better than painting it. IIRC they changed this recently to make Sig Radius much more important... A 60% web is equivalent to a 150% painter, for speed issues.

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