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Paris Alexander
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:32:00 -
[1]
Here's an interesting theoretical while we wait for the server to come back up:
If, as is the general opinion in many posts, mining isn't "worth" it anymore and if Tyrannis is going to crash the mineral market which presumably makes mining even less attractive as an career for capsuleers, and if it's really technically not possible to stop macro miners, then is it finally time for CCP to rebuild the profession so miners can truly go completely passive or almost completely passive?
If so, how would you do it? What would be the pros and cons?
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Gunnanmon
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:38:00 -
[2]
Who's fighting it anyway?
Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Helana Troi
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:42:00 -
[3]
*shrug* seems to me that you can't go for very long in S&I without someone raging about all the Hulk driving macros and suggesting let's have another Hulkageddon. If they're distorting the market as badly as everyone thinks and as a result making game play worse for everyone else (miners included) perhaps it's time to consider changing the mechanics behind mining.
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Induc
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:46:00 -
[4]
Pros: Cheaper modules and ships
Cons: Even less income for miners
But I wouldn't be the one complaining 
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EvilCheez
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Posted - 2010.05.26 17:08:00 -
[5]
They need to make the proposed comet mining extremely profitable, impossible to macro, and only available in low sec. I'm not sure if they are going to include t1 mins in it though.
How does just allowing macros not reduce t1 highsec mins to zero very quickly? It would be easier just to remove tritanium from the game........oh, no -----Chribba is gonna kick my butt
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Vasundhara
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Posted - 2010.05.26 21:50:00 -
[6]
If they do this they would need to make it so your ship doesn't actually exist in space and they just calculate some mineral yield based on the ship you logged out with and the system you were in. If it requires actually keeping a connection active then you are going to have the whole population of EvE logged in 24/7. This is essentially what they've done with planetary interaction so we'll soon see if the concept is a market-destroying world ender <shrug>
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Jane Vherokior
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Posted - 2010.05.26 22:55:00 -
[7]
No. Macroers should all be killed and banned permanently (based on credit card number & name). I have to work to make isk, why should cheaters be allowed to get away with it wholesale?
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.05.27 00:44:00 -
[8]
Routable ore flow would be neat.
Being able to route ore directly to a jetcan or something.
Macros will always be out there, why not just take away their advantage with less clicky UI.
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Corunna ElMan
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.27 01:14:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Jane Vherokior
No. Macroers should all be killed and banned permanently (based on credit card number & name). I have to work to make isk, why should cheaters be allowed to get away with it wholesale?
I agree - furthermore, any ship using a macro should be freely attackable.
Let's see how far a macro miner gets when he comes back to see a pod where his Hulk once was. 
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Athanasia Samsa
Amarr
Institute for Mental Hygiene
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Posted - 2010.05.27 01:53:00 -
[10]
why stop with allowing macros? just give every player some minerals daily for nothing... or introduce mining agents that give them out like datacores... o_O
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.05.27 07:15:00 -
[11]
If mining wasn't about clicking and dragging game-play could still be made up elsewhere.
There are several things that act on mining efficiency/difficulty whereby CCP has control.
Lets say the process was automated up to the jetcan/orca stage:
This with the current balance would be mind-less and people would simply be afk,
thus ruining the Sunday BBQ with beer atmosphere that good mining op can have.
If however the efficiency gains from prudent survey scanner use were increased, a carrot.
Coupled with an increase in belt rat AI, to keep everyone on their toes, the stick.
The survey scanner is a mechanism by which a user that actively uses brain power can mine more efficiently,
with an increased effect it could auto-punish macros or afk'ers. Better belt rats and more survey scanning would bring
the clicking back up, maybe without it being too mind-less or repetitive.
I believe there are ways to streamline this whole UI and make the whole thing more immersive.
It's no solution to keep relying on click-drag, click-drag, which is both boring to humans and heaven to macros.
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Blasphemour
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Posted - 2010.05.27 13:50:00 -
[12]
Macro mining should NEVER be allowed. Anyone using a macro program, for whatever action in a game, should be banned from the game immediately.
Banning macro's will make mining more profitable again as less minerals are seeded to the market.
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Loaria Abest
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:36:00 -
[13]
I don't think its technically impossible for them to stop macro mining. Adding random dangerous gas clouds that knock your mining lasers offline or break your lock would be something macros would have a hard time dealing with. It wouldn't stop the 23/7 chinese isk making operations but it would stop all the part-time macro miners. Even adding more ecm rats in the belt to jam up your hulk unless you blow them up would help.
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Gavin Nordoff
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:33:00 -
[14]
Stop 0% transparency of menus to make the ocr software reading the screens less reliable?
Random positioning of item/cargo window upon docking in station (10 seconds for a player to sort, buggers up a auto move mouse to x,y and click program)
Allow users to track how long someone in their address book is online.
eg total 23 hours 7 days a week - random number of 1 or 2 minute log offs = say 22 hours 47 minutes a day = suspect and data able to be added to petitions
Or just stop letting banned macro's back into the game 1 month later?
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion on 27/05/2010 17:40:38
Originally by: EvilCheez
They need to make the proposed comet mining extremely profitable, impossible to macro, and only available in low sec. I'm not sure if they are going to include t1 mins in it though.
Yeah, cause comets would occure in high sec. I like the first two, but the third strikes me as just another stupid attempt to get easily ganked targets into low sec.
Now if you made the ships that mine commets harder to kill...
Quote:
How does just allowing macros not reduce t1 highsec mins to zero very quickly? It would be easier just to remove tritanium from the game........oh, no -----Chribba is gonna kick my butt
If they are reduced to zero then there would be no macros save perhaps by players who are trying to completely vertically integrate their industrial production. The price would be low, but not zero.
Remove Tritanium from the game and you'll have pyerite become the new tritanium with the same problem.
Its hard to say what impact Tyrannis will have on high sec ores, and ore in general. With the buff to the low end mins in null sec ores, there will be less demand for hi-sec low end mins in null sec. That will reduce the price of hi-sec mins. On the other hand changing mission loot drops and drone compounds will have an upward effect on prices. Insurance...mmm hard to say in general since insurance didn't fix specific mineral prices, but the value of the basket of minerals. Some might go up, some might go down due to this change. Overall, its hard to even come up with a qualitative impact let alone a quantitative impact--i.e. we'll have to wait and see. My belief right now, is mineral prices on average will drop.
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With Honor
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:23:00 -
[16]
I started on EVE as an experiment, to find a game more interesting than WoW. One of the activities I enjoyed was doing missions (quests) while another was mining.
After a few weeks of doing missions I gave it up in disgust when I realized just how small a pool of missions there were. The final straw was when I got the same identical mission - three times in a row!
As to mining, it didn't take all that long for me to realize just how entertaining mining actually was. When you can reduce an "entertainment" to a series of macro key/mouse activities without anyone being at the keyboard, it is no longer entertainment.
While most players are willing to continue mining manually, many either use AFK ice mining (returning to the keyboard every 30 minutes) or macro mining. Given how repetitive it is and how easy it is to either do AFK or macro, why bother doing it manually?
The fact of the matter is that macro miners is not the problem. The problem quite simply is that EVE has not done a good job of developing an indepth game. When you receive the same missions over and over, it becomes boring and repetitive. When a gathering profession becomes an AFK or macro, it also becomes boring and repetitive.
Fix the problem and not the symptom. The macro miners are the symptom, the lack of depth to EVE is the problem. Provide a large quantity of missions and make them uniquely different. Make mining a more interactive (and entertaining) activity.
Are macro miners a problem in the game? Not at all. They're only human response to a situation that EVE created. Until the real problem is fixed, the symptoms will continue.
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Raimus Kallenden
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Posted - 2010.05.27 19:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: With Honor
Are macro miners a problem in the game? Not at all. They're only human response to a situation that EVE created. Until the real problem is fixed, the symptoms will continue.
^this
Originally by: EvilCheez
They need to make the proposed comet mining extremely profitable, impossible to macro, and only available in low sec. I'm not sure if they are going to include t1 mins in it though.
wtf does comet mining have to do with anything? It is a proposed feature which no one knows anything about and would probably have negligible affects on mining and macroing in general. Please go home.
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.05.27 20:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Raimus Kallenden
Originally by: With Honor
Are macro miners a problem in the game? Not at all. They're only human response to a situation that EVE created. Until the real problem is fixed, the symptoms will continue.
^this
Agreed. People create macros because mining is boring as hell not because there is tons of isk in it. Maybe if they have a large number of accounts, and they run pretty much non-stop. Still I'm sure there are better ways to earn isk. Most of the macro miners I've seen appear to be solitary miners. I suppose they might have more than one miner logged into more than one system, but now we are starting to talk about a pretty significant investment in terms of hardware and training times, etc.
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Paris Alexander
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Posted - 2010.05.27 21:41:00 -
[19]
What if:
1) You reduced belt spawns in hi-sec and greatly reduced their refill/refresh rate?
2) Increased low-sec belt spawns and refresh commensurately?
3) Gave mining drones more intelligence and autonomy (go to this bookmark, mine this ore, drop it off at this container at this bookmark, repeat until empty, go here if attacked and wait x time until return)?
4) Set aggression for attacks on drones, but no security status hit?
5) Give drones upgrade/specialization for increase efficiency (i.e. T2 Omber Mining Drone)?
Benefits:
1) The boring part of mining is automated.
2) Miners have to work harder to protect their productive assets (drones). Which seems to me to be a more interesting thing to do than click drag for hours on end.
3) Macro miners can be grief'ed into oblivion since they're not around to protect their drones.
Both 2 & 3 mean more pew-pew and a reason to be in low sec. (Which should make pirates happy)
Drawbacks:
Big nerf for everyone who spent a bajillion SP and ISK on maxing current mining skills.
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Kat Bandeis
Caldari
Wacom Research
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Posted - 2010.05.27 22:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Corunna ElMan
Originally by: Jane Vherokior
No. Macroers should all be killed and banned permanently (based on credit card number & name). I have to work to make isk, why should cheaters be allowed to get away with it wholesale?
I agree - furthermore, any ship using a macro should be freely attackable.
Let's see how far a macro miner gets when he comes back to see a pod where his Hulk once was.
I warped into an ice field one day that is regularly populated with macro'ers. Saw a pod sitting next to an ice rock. 10 mins later it warped off, was gone for 2 mins, warped back to same spot. A POD! Sat for 18 or so minutes, warped off for two, back to same spot. This went on for a couple hours. OBVIOUS macro'er. Petitioned it, CCP did nothing. Still there to this day (the Hulk, not the Pod).
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.05.28 00:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: With Honor
Fix the problem and not the symptom. The macro miners are the symptom, the lack of depth to EVE is the problem. Provide a large quantity of missions and make them uniquely different. Make mining a more interactive (and entertaining) activity.
Too true. Yet the evagalists scream from the rooftops that macros should never be allowed, while not realising that people are actually asking
for eve to be made more interesting and dynamic. The only solution to macros is to make gameplay interesting and not tied to repetitive click-drags.
Adding more click-drag, putting road-blocks up, making the UI randomly jump around or change colours are not solutions.
Those are challenges, the exact kind that anyone writing macro software loves.
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unixorn
Cosmic Odyssey
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.05.28 09:11:00 -
[22]
IMHO, the following issues need to be taken care of by CCP in order to improve mining in general:
1) Remove null sec NPC mineral convoy haulers. Minerals should only be obtained via mining. That alone will make mining a respectable profession again. Yes, big aliances should need organised ops if they decide that they want to obtain their veldspar localy for building their supercaps. At present, a significant amount of the tritanium is obtained from looting NPC mineral convoys.
2) Allow Routable ore flow directly to corp hangars of rorqual, orca, or jet can.
3) Give significant advantage when ore scanning is used. For example add random large roids even in high sec belts that can be located only via ore scanning. Such roids should be located far away from the 0km warp point of each belt.
4) Give significant advantage when rorqual is at belt rather than at POS.
5) Improve belt rat AI. Perhaps add rats even in high sec that can use special ECM modules for offlining mining lasers. That could be negated by special mining ECCM field that only be fit on rorqual or orca. This could be an anser to point (4) above as well.
6) Perhaps create 'salaries' that would be automaticaly paid by the corp on a per minute basis to those corp members who are parts of a special kind of fleet and participate to a corp mining operation. The salary could be calculated according to different coefficients of productivity that will have to be configured by the CEO/mining director etc. Those coeeficients/multipliers could also take into account the ship and the fitting of the ship that the pilot flies. Or just simply set an ISK amount per minute. For example a pilot flying a hulk could be set to get paid a salary of 100K ISK / minute while the lasers of his ship are active. The pilot of the rorq could get a salary of 500K ISK / minute or something. (These are just exaples ofc). PVP Guards should be set to receive their salary while their are present in the belt. It is important that inactivity periods of lasers, industrial cores should not count. The amounts will be taken automaticaly and directly from a wallet division of the corp.
These actions will make mining respectable and interesting again.
If I spent all the time and effort I put in EVE in RL, I would be immensely rich
Unixorn |
Mark Stevenson
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Posted - 2010.05.28 10:23:00 -
[23]
I really would like to be able to assign a route for the ore, but only to the capital industrials - like some sort of ship linking.
Another idea for the scanner wold be to preassign roids for the mining lasers - like "mine as long as there is at least 1 full load left on the roid. After that start mining on the next roid assigned by the scanner".
Oh well - and i would like some sort of alarm as soon as npc enemies reach my belt hehe - just to wake up in time
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