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Warpantrieb
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Posted - 2010.06.01 00:02:00 -
[1]
Ok, this question is regarding the lags in the game EVE Online, and I know this topic has been done and trolled to death a billion times already. But I would like to ask a serious question to CCP and hope we the player base can get an answer from you.
It is obvious knowledge, the lag problem mainly started with the deployment of Dominion, which was the last major update. Before that update, with unreinforced nod, you can still have a fleet fight of 400-700 with very little lags, and no jump delay, but now with reinforced nod and a lot less numbers in system, we are experiencing a lot of lag then before. So with this content in mind, so here is the question.
Why did just a one update (Dominion) was able to change so much? Why were you not able to just compare data of pre-patch to post-patch to find the problem? Why were you not just able to roll back to what was in pre-patch that made it work to fix the problem? Because to us none software people, this don't sound like very hard to do? So I would like to hear your official response to this.
Because we are glad you see you are announcing fleet lag test on sisi every 2 weeks, but what exactly is the technical difficulty that you guys are facing, which is trying to improve the game back to the 2009 level?
So, I ask this sincere question to hopping get a sincere respond from CCP Development team please.
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Swiftgaze
Elysium Trading Company
Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.01 00:06:00 -
[2]
Goddammit you're official. I bet this topic is going to come as a real bombshell.
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Ti'anla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.01 00:09:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Ti''anla on 01/06/2010 00:11:21
Well, while we wait for a developer response, if one comes..
This non-programmer considers it bloody hard to find the problem. It could be anywhere in the code adjustments Dominion instigated. You can't just compare and find the problem. At best, you can compare the two versions to flag up differences, then trawl through it for weeks isolating any difference that could possibly affect latency (most of them), and then, finally, run massive tests as they're doing on Sisi in the hopes of being able to catch one of the hundreds, if not thousands of isolated code segments red handed as it acts up and causes lag.
... And then start over again, looking for the Next bit of code that's at issue.
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Zivoril
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Posted - 2010.06.01 01:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Zivoril on 01/06/2010 01:40:14
lol, AS SERIOUS AS MY CAPS ARE, as many YEARS this game has been avaible! Anyone with a half a brain would think aspects like this would be fixed and moved past by now.
It blows me away, they everytime I see a small or major patch, that I realize they not only created a game thats either to advanced for the actually developers!! Haaaa NOOOOOOO!
They just suck at what there are doing, looks at the WOW team! Facts are facts eat it CCP!
I still have to move in game windows, thats an issue 3 years old. I still do it anyway.
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Whattis
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Posted - 2010.06.01 01:48:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
Because to us none software people, this don't sound like very hard to do?
"Large fries" doesn't seem too difficult an order either, yet you McDonalds employees always manage to screw it up.
See? See what I did?
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.01 01:50:00 -
[6]
Regular updates on the issue both feel better as a consumer.
When you don't hear regular updates (other than we're going to run another test) and you see them working hard to release new mechanics its easy to have half a mind that they don't really see it as a priority.. that they don't care to fix a part of the game.
Also, by the lack of sharing, if feels like they're ignoring a huge resource they have available given that we've probably got some top in class 175 iq Mit types or just plain guys wired for computing to understand database architecture when they were 7 years old .
The "we're aware of the problem" blog post a few months ago was the type of thing I'd like to see every 2 to 3 weeks . It might just be saying the right words,... but heck go ahead and say the right words ... at least we know then that the various departmetns that pre-read the releases (marketing?) also keep the proble on their minds.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.01 01:52:00 -
[7]
are PCCs being seeded tomorrow
Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.06.01 02:05:00 -
[8]
in before this entire thread devolves into a slapfight between armchair programmers who really surely truely know that CCP could/couldn't fix lag if they only [techstuff]
however, despite my :bittervet: clairvoyance, some updates from the devs especially regarding that whole infiniband thing would be neat
_____________________
Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.01 02:06:00 -
[9]
Has anyone considered the obvious? That it CANT be fixed without undoing the added expansion material? That perhaps CCP wont say so because to do so would be to admit failure tarnishing EVE's marketing image?
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Urging CCP to work on current issues next expansion. |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.06.01 02:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Warpantrieb
It is obvious knowledge, the lag problem mainly started with the deployment of Dominion
As opposed to the OTHER obvious knowledge, that the "lag problem" pretty much ALWAYS existed ?
Sure, it got slightly worse with Dominion, but it was always there to begin with.
Quote:
what exactly is the technical difficulty that you guys are facing
Yes, because they KNOW EXACTLY what the problem is already, but they're just unwilling to do it ? 
Want technical difficulties explained : "it's hard to figure out and takes a lot of work to try and fix it, so we're not done yet, durr".
Originally by: HeliosGal
are PCCs being seeded tomorrow
No. On the 8th. The NPC sell orders for POS stuff return tomorrow, only to vanish either on the 8th or soon after.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.01 03:48:00 -
[11]
The probably have non-disclosure agreements about whats actually in their code. And by probably I mean 100% chance. That may be one reason why they don't tell you about the actual code.
After all everything cant be open source.
This is clearly a signature. |
Mitsune Konno
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Posted - 2010.06.01 04:18:00 -
[12]
You are mistaken. There is no lag. Also, you did not file a petition for a fleet fight, so the lag that does not exist is your fault.
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Warpantrieb
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Posted - 2010.06.01 17:44:00 -
[13]
Ok, this is the reason I have to ask, a lot of speculation from everyone but no one knows, so CCP Devs, I am still waiting for your response.
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OrOr'Baroror
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Posted - 2010.06.01 18:07:00 -
[14]
Have you considered that the problem might exist in your hardware and Internet Connection? (Even though it still is indirectly CCPs "fault")
By updating the game they might have updated to a point where the average internet connection/hardware is no longer good enough for sustained gameplay. In that case the only possible thing would be to completely downgrade the game.
I find this highly likely as CCP is unlikely to notice it themselves (thus no obvious attemp to solve it) as they are too close to their servers and apparently have the required hardware.
By visiting some friends and comparing PC specs and internet connection speeds, the person with a state of the art PC and a 100Mbit down, 80 Mbit up connection, experienced NO lag at all, not even in big fleet ops.
The more you decreased hardware/internet connection, the laggier the game was. It was however not possible to see what caused more problems.
It also seemed to run better on Win7 than Vista (noone had XP, couldn't check that). These tests were all performed in Stockholm, Sweden.
So this is my theory.
They should however do something to solve it. Outdating users isn't a good way to keep customers. |
Khanoonian Singh
Ramshackle Industrial
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Posted - 2010.06.01 18:37:00 -
[15]
My money is on the fleet finder.
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Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2010.06.01 18:44:00 -
[16]
In before the Dev, like everyone else....
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Dynaverse Corporation
Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.06.01 18:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Warpantrieb
Ok, this is the reason I have to ask, a lot of speculation from everyone but no one knows, so CCP Devs, I am still waiting for your response.
An update on the status of the lag hunt would be great, especially post Tyrannis release. However just because you asked specifically for a Dev response does not mean you will get one. And if you don't get a reply, the intention would not be to slight you or diminish the problem you are asking about. They simply can't reply to every thread about every issue, nor should they.
As I said though, asking for a post patch update on the lag situation isn't out of line in the slightest... just don't necessarily expect a reply in this particular thread. Thats more likely to come in the form of a Dev Blog.
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If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Warpantrieb
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Posted - 2010.06.02 14:48:00 -
[18]
Ok, CCP look like we have been ignored so far. So I am going to bump this post once and only once a day, and sincerely and patiently waiting your answer. I will stop doing so unless you do 2 things.
1. Give us a satisfactory answer.
2. Lock this topic, and by doing so, it will make yourself look like you don't care about your customers, and will be a public relation disaster.
Sincerely
Warpantrieb
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Gunnanmon
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.06.02 14:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Noran Ferah
In before the Dev, like everyone else....
lol
Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Eaton d'Sorder
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Posted - 2010.06.02 14:56:00 -
[20]
Um.... what lag?
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Nuadi
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Posted - 2010.06.02 15:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ti'anla
Edited by: Ti''anla on 01/06/2010 00:11:21
This non-programmer considers it bloody hard to find the problem. It could be anywhere in the code adjustments Dominion instigated. You can't just compare and find the problem. At best, you can compare the two versions to flag up differences, then trawl through it for weeks isolating any difference that could possibly affect latency (most of them), and then, finally, run massive tests as they're doing on Sisi in the hopes of being able to catch one of the hundreds, if not thousands of isolated code segments red handed as it acts up and causes lag.
... And then start over again, looking for the Next bit of code that's at issue.
Even we programmers find it hard.
The fact is that all of you can help find a solution to this issue. Set up a client to log onto Singularity when they have a mass testing session, and help them.
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Stratio
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.02 16:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Warpantrieb
Why did just a one update (Dominion) was able to change so much?
It can be the smallest thing. Like closing a connection which was not being closed before, but which should be closed.
Originally by: Warpantrieb
Why were you not able to just compare data of pre-patch to post-patch to find the problem?
There is a lot to compare. You might even see the fact that a connection which was wrongly left open is now being closed. You might never guess that such a bug fix is actually causing the problem.
Originally by: Warpantrieb
Why were you not just able to roll back to what was in pre-patch that made it work to fix the problem?
You mean completely roll-back to before Dominion?
_____________________
Poreuomai's Spokesman
For Tribe and Honour! |
knobber Jobbler
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Posted - 2010.06.02 16:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Warpantrieb
Because to us none software people, this don't sound like very hard to do?
The problem is, that you have to find the exact problem before you can fix it.
With a simple bit of software this is easy because you can find the problem quicker.
If you have a system with 700 people in it, it could be one or two people, doing 1 particular action that is causing the problem.
Even when you find what you think is the problem, that is just the start of it. You have to confirm that what you think is causing said issue, is actually the root of the problem. In many cases it might not be.
Also that problem might be how a new bit of code interacts with an old bit of code or a change to old code has had a knock on effect which wasn't anticipated. Developers don't like to touch old code because it can have disastrous effects if not revised thoroughly.
Something also to add about QA. When a developer adds code, they usually use an automated Software version numbering system to help track down problems.
The trouble there is, if QA cannot replicate the problem (usually because they haven't been able to find the exact cause of it) they cannot find the exact version of the software where the problem first appears. So a roll back might not work at all.
It is very complicated and takes a huge amount of work to make a computer game. As a former QA manager I can testify to this and my hat goes off to CCP for making such a complicated game work so well....most of the time;)
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.02 17:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Stratio
You mean completely roll-back to before Dominion?
Trust me this isnt a bad thing and i am sure 95% of null sec would agree with me.
_______________________
Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Warpantrieb
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Posted - 2010.06.03 13:49:00 -
[25]
Still being ignored, here is to another day, another request to CCP from your valuable customer, please give us a response.
CCP, I can do this forever, we have been suffering this lag for half of a year now from you now, I can keep this trend up for another half year if necessary.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.06.03 13:51:00 -
[26]
You have 1/300000th of your imagined value. Sorry to pop your bubble.
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Miss Direction
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
Ronin Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.03 14:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Warpantrieb
Why did just a one update (Dominion) was able to change so much?
The Dominion patch was the move from 2005 to 2008 MSSQL that was a fairly fundamental change. The firm I work for has so far refused to move to 2008 due to some fairly major microcode issues that affect performance in key areas.
I think its fair to say that CCP is working with MS at the moment to fix 2008 for MS.
I am sure it cant be MS fault after all they would never release an unstable unreliable product would they 
Corp Main Site
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.06.03 14:16:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Miss Direction
Originally by: Warpantrieb
Why did just a one update (Dominion) was able to change so much?
The Dominion patch was the move from 2005 to 2008 MSSQL that was a fairly fundamental change. The firm I work for has so far refused to move to 2008 due to some fairly major microcode issues that affect performance in key areas.
I think its fair to say that CCP is working with MS at the moment to fix 2008 for MS.
I am sure it cant be MS fault after all they would never release an unstable unreliable product would they
So, Ms has got CCP by the goolies? No change there then.
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.03 14:39:00 -
[29]
Keep on signing this and eventually ccp might actually listen to us:
CCP Commit to excellence
_______________________
Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2010.06.03 15:06:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Zanes Shoubje on 03/06/2010 15:08:00
Answered already
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=728
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=727
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