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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:22:00 -
[31]
On the contrary, prices will adjust to exactly what the average player thinks they are worth. Capitalism is p. cool like that.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Akita T There's no point in repeating what the above people said, so I'll just focus on what wasn't said yet.
Originally by: Veebora I won't use a BS in PVP anytime soon with this loss.
My, my, could this possibly be one of the GOOD side-effects ? Yes, yes it is.
It was about time much more people started also flying smaller ships, dammit.
This. So VERY MUCH this.
The insurance change (I refuse to call such a positive change a "nerf") is so good for the game in so many ways that the only thing that one could rationally complain about was that it took so long for them to do it.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Captain Mastiff
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:36:00 -
[33]
Didn't insurance "Fraud" take minerals out of the game by destroying them completely? Perhaps making a need for more minerals? Where as maybe we will see less minerals (t1 loot gone) relying only on miners. Price goes up right?
Either way I don't think CCP could of won the great rage argument of insurance in Eve. However I still dislike the way they went about increasing T2 insurance payout. I think the loss was the disadvantage of having the nichT over any other t1 counterpart of your ship.
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Kerfira
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:49:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Kerfira on 02/06/2010 18:49:45 Positive effects of insurance change: Some of the unused ship classes might get used again. T1 market is flowing freely. Insurance fraud is removed. Kills have meaning. Losses are felt. Being better PvP'ers will actually help decide who wins and loses wars.
Negative effects of insurance change: More people are posting whines on the forum.
This isn't and shouldn't be a game where losses doesn't mean anything. Flying a <big ship> should give you an adrenaline rush when you take it into situations where you can lose it. Killing a <big ship> should be something you should be proud of, and something that'll actually matter in wearing down your opponent.
The OP probably doesn't remember this, but back in the days when large guns were 20m each, and a Cap Recharger II the same, people STILL flew and lost T2 fitted battleships.
This is not a FPS where you respawn beside new weapons for free. The score here is not a kill counter, but your wallet!
IMHO, insurance should be determined on this model: T1 Frigates: 100% T1 Destroyers: 75% T1 Cruisers: 50% T1 Battlecruisers: 25% Everything else: 0%
And with these modifiers: High-sec: 1.0x Low-sec: 0.5x Null-sec: 0.0x
This would benefit newbies, but not be much use later on... We'd see many more smaller ships being used instead of (almost) BS only fleets...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Dzajic
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 02/06/2010 18:49:45 Positive effects of insurance change: Some of the unused ship classes might get used again. T1 market is flowing freely. Insurance fraud is removed. Kills have meaning. Losses are felt. Being better PvP'ers will actually help decide who wins and loses wars.
Negative effects of insurance change: More people are posting whines on the forum.
This isn't and shouldn't be a game where losses doesn't mean anything. Flying a <big ship> should give you an adrenaline rush when you take it into situations where you can lose it. Killing a <big ship> should be something you should be proud of, and something that'll actually matter in wearing down your opponent.
The OP probably doesn't remember this, but back in the days when large guns were 20m each, and a Cap Recharger II the same, people STILL flew and lost T2 fitted battleships.
This is not a FPS where you respawn beside new weapons for free. The score here is not a kill counter, but your wallet!
IMHO, insurance should be determined on this model: T1 Frigates: 100% T1 Destroyers: 75% T1 Cruisers: 50% T1 Battlecruisers: 25% Everything else: 0%
And with these modifiers: High-sec: 1.0x Low-sec: 0.5x Null-sec: 0.0x
This would benefit newbies, but not be much use later on... We'd see many more smaller ships being used instead of (almost) BS only fleets...
Nonsense. Already you pretty much had to have at least one alt, sitting in NPC corp farming L4s in CNR or Golem to fund your elite 0.0 or low sec PVP activity. If you flew capital you need a second alt for cyno jobs.
Current insurance change makes 0.0 people losing several fleet fit BS in a single battle a far greater loss then before. Who knows, with BSes no longer being nearly free it might make more corps have replacement programs for fleet losses.
Anyway, your wonderful insurance suggestion would make everyone either turn to RMT or have 2 or 3 alts for afk mining in high sec in order to fund any serious PVP.
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Kerfira
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:23:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Kerfira on 02/06/2010 19:24:38
Originally by: Dzajic Current insurance change makes 0.0 people losing several fleet fit BS in a single battle a far greater loss then before.
Cry some more, will you?
As said, back before invention, it was not uncommon to pay 300m for a fitted tier-2 battleship (+30m for insurance). Net loss when you lost it, 150-200m... People still flew them. Those that couldn't afford them flew something smaller. Fleets were DIVERSE, and the battles much more fun!
You don't have a CCP-given right to fly free battleships in this game!
Second part: That people FEEL losses mean that you can actually destroy an opponent through economic attrition! This is a bloody GREAT thing!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Zahira Wrath
Amarr Dominion Strategic
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:26:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Veebora 26567 - Cost of losing a full insured Tempest.
Sounds about right to me. Losing a battleship should mean you loose money, not just from the fittings.
I hate to say this, but you sound like a suicide ganker who is upset that his free ships insurance scam is now gone.
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B1FF
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:38:00 -
[38]
Originally by: oolk
Originally by: Veebora
Calculations:
TEMPEST INSURANCE (all values x 1000) 74333 - Cost of a Tempest in Rens' marked.
20471 - Cost of platinum insurance 68237 - Payback of platinum insurance
26567 - Cost of losing a full insured Tempest.
Well,lets say I scrap a vehicle fully insured;the check they will cut me will be very much similar to that system...depreciation,etc. and they wont reimburse me the cost of the insurance either...but they will allow a certain % for the pimp I added to it,so yes there is still room for improvement but very hard to do from past posts about the subject of mods.
Basically it cost 26mil to almost eb able to get a new ship back...still not a bad deal,we had it easy in the past I guess.
Real world examples are fail. You design a game for what works not to make it like real life.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Reckoning.
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Posted - 2010.06.02 22:43:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 02/06/2010 22:43:19
Quote: Well,lets say I scrap a vehicle fully insured;the check they will cut me will be very much similar to that system...depreciation,etc. and they wont reimburse me the cost of the insurance either...but they will allow a certain % for the pimp I added to it,so yes there is still room for improvement but very hard to do from past posts about the subject of mods.
"Hello sir, I see here that you're filing a claim for your destroyed...Tempest battleship. Of course, we will reimburse your loss right after...
Wait, what the ****? You strapped guns to the thing and sent it into battle? We do not cover such high-risk situations as it would be impossible then for us to do business. If you want to buy expensive toys and get them exploded, do it on your dime, not ours!
And no, we wont refund your insurance deposit."
Y' know, if we're being realistic about insurance.
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MaxxOmega
Caldari Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2010.06.02 22:47:00 -
[40]
This reaction is typically seen in real life. People have an overwhelming sense of entitlement.
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Ganagati
Caldari Dark Ashes
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Posted - 2010.06.02 22:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: FunzzeR
In fact, I will go as far to say that CCP needs to remove insurance entirely.
I disagree. The way it is now is fine. I'm perfectly content PVPing in frigates and battlecruisers, anyhow. Same fun, not as expensive. But the removal of insurance would turn EVE even more into spreadsheet online. If that's the case, it would be easier to simply come up with an addon to the game that compares the size of our wallets, rather than bothering with all this silly space ship fighting. It would be the same idea.
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Raneru
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2010.06.02 23:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Veebora
TEMPEST INSURANCE (all values x 1000) 74333 - Cost of a Tempest in Rens' market.
20471 - Cost of platinum insurance 68237 - Payback of platinum insurance
26567 - Cost of losing a full insured Tempest.
You think that is bad? A fully insured Machariel pays out the same amount
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.06.02 23:56:00 -
[43]
Originally by: gfldex You imply that prices for ships would not drop down to get the same ration we had before. Have a trip and check the jita market history. It already started.
This insurance nerf will be renamed to The Big Miner Nerf of 2010 fairly soon.
Not that simple...
We have no idea of how ship prices will go once the effect of all those meta-0 modules disappearing from the loot table catches up. Ratters (and missioners) are still selling off stuff they've looted pre-tyrannis.
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Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.06.03 00:00:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Raneru
You think that is bad? A fully insured Machariel pays out the same amount
This. You think flying a fully insured Tier 1 Battleship is hard on the wallet, wait until you get into Faction ships.
After posting a lossmail of a Republic Fleet Firetail to Battleclinic, Battleclinic showed that loss to be around 128mil isk with fittings. No insurance payout on that would come close to covering my loss.
That being said, I remember being a young pilot and having only 200 or 300mil in my wallet and risking a battleship was a very big risk indeed.
As has always been the case in Eve and can never be said enough,
Do Not Fly What You Cant Afford To Lose
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Cartheron Crust
Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya
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Posted - 2010.06.03 00:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Veebora This will have the bad effect of decreasing the will of people putting ships for PVP, which is the brightest side of this game in my opinion.
Willingness to face loss has never been a strong point of the EVE playerbase, but the solution is not to remove loss.
Insurance should just be removed.
Along with killmails. |
Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2010.06.03 00:07:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Usagi Tsukino on 03/06/2010 00:07:59
Originally by: Zahira Wrath I hate to say this, but you sound like a suicide ganker who is upset that his free ships insurance scam is now gone.
And even then it shouldn't matter unless he's a fail ganker who can't pop the hauler, doesn't have the patience to wait for the right target or like what happened to me, everything is in a GSC and it pops with everything in side costing you a billion in lost goodies.
U MAD USAGI? YES I AM! GRRRR.
But not at the insurance. It's a non-issue. __________
Multispectacular. |
Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.03 00:11:00 -
[47]
Originally by: knobber Jobbler
Originally by: Major Galdari People fly T2 ships and don't get insurance. Come on, the T1 insurance "nerf" is not an issue
That isn't the most constructive of answers for younger characters or poorer characters. A T2 ship is very expensive unless you have billions in the bank or a corp backing you.
The insurance nerf penalises newer players. They should have changed the nerf so you get no payout if you've been killed by Concorde or you make X amount of claims within a given time frame. That would answer exploiters and suicide gankers.
Wait what? T2 ships...expensive? Sure, HACs are about as expensive as a battleship, but they usually last longer and the performance is worth it. People still flew them even without insurance because they're just fun to fly. You don't need billions to fly them either...T2 frigs are very popular and cost as much as a battlecruiser (if not cheaper because of fittings).
Newer players should not be PvPing in BS anyway. I think you forgot the #1 principle in EVE: "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose." If people could fly and lose BS for basically no cost, everyone would fly them and there would be BS blobs every- wait...that happens still. Move along. I forgot to mention that you are in fact reading something that is called a signature. |
Kyra Felann
Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.03 00:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kerfira That people FEEL losses mean that you can actually destroy an opponent through economic attrition! This is a bloody GREAT thing!
I couldn't agree with this more. --------------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Ginger Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.04 04:03:00 -
[49]
All whom tried guessing why I've posted missed the point, I am not suicide ganker or have lost a Tempest. I just PVP in FW and didn't lose anything expensive lately.
I just think that who usually suffers with ISK loss is new people, because old players know 100 ways to get rich in no time and they have lot of alts for making ISKs.
It was good seeing some positive points of this change that I've overseeing as well.
But I really think that 0.0 or pies will have the same life, but young characters will suffer a big hit when losing ships.
It will be a lot better for suicide gankers and griefers, they will fit 10 cheap cruisers and kill a "newbie" BS in high sec knowing this guy will suffer, but this is just my guess which is not better than anyone else guess.
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Rhedea
Gorthaur Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.04 04:56:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Rhedea on 04/06/2010 04:57:37 Time is everything in gaming, in 30 min of rl work I can pay to play one month. I can sell 6 plexs after working one day. Time playing is limited, I rather pay someone to play for me and receive their hard earn iskies than do any mindless grinding, bin dair dun dat
Still I do like ratting, trading, corp work and shooting at red flashing thingies.
oops sorry of topic....insurance is for pussies.
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JC Anderson
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:31:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Zions Child Edited by: Zions Child on 02/06/2010 16:08:27
Originally by: Veebora
Originally by: Akita T There's no point in repeating what the above people said, so I'll just focus on what wasn't said yet.
Originally by: Veebora I won't use a BS in PVP anytime soon with this loss.
My, my, could this possibly be one of the GOOD side-effects ? Yes, yes it is. It was about time much more people started also flying smaller ships, dammit.
Akita, you do mostly PVE or industry/trade as you usually states and so maybe you are overlooking something.
In 0.0 they will continue using very big stuff as they have very big earnings, no doubt it wont change anything.
For low sec PVP, like FW. People is already very careful to use BSs or even BCs, most fleets are cruiser down size.
Even with the old insurance, the T2 fittings for a BS with Trimarks rigs is very high, now losing + 26 Mi on the ship itself will make it worst.
So people already use small ships, the insurance chance wont have this good effect.
You fail to understand her point. Take it from a pirate, (not a very good one, but hey, who's counting?) smaller ships are more fun. BS fights take too long, and aren't nearly as spontaneous. Cruiser and frigate fights require slightly more skill, and are actually quite fun.
So, BS fights = Boring Frigate + Cruiser fights = Fun
Therefore, no issue with losing lots o isk in battleships.
And again, people used to pvp with battleships back in 06', when you'd lose a hell of a lot more than 20 million isk on fittings and insurance loss.
EDIT: Also, Tippia is right.
Actually in 06 it always seemed that any pvp player I saw/ran into was always in a Cerberus or a Vaga.
Though iyou are right in saying that more people were willing to do it with a bs than there are now.
Hacs however were a hell of a bit more expensive back then and suffered from the lack of any sort of real payout when insured.
And this brings us back to the 'so called' nerf and how I have a hard time seeing it as such. Especially when you consider how much cheaper a T1 BS is now days when compared to years ago. I'd be happy to get anything back at all really. And even moreso due to alternative of those who fight with and sometimes lose t2 ships.
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Natalie Caladan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Mr Epeen If it was up to me, you would have no insurance and lose 74,333 ISK when you got blown up. Be thankful there is any insurance. Mr Epeen
Agree 100%.
Someone somewhere sometime said "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". I'm sure (s)he didn't mean " .. after calculating the insurance payout"
I'm sorry to say but I still think insurance is actually the ultimate "babysitting" feature in the game. It's totally unrealistic and doesn't make any sense at all, it's basically giving away free ISK to suicide gankers and the like. I pray CCP wil one day give insurance to the players so they can run their own insurance companies.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 10:16:00 -
[53]
Insurance is a mining subsidy.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Hemp Invader
GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.06.04 10:44:00 -
[54]
Yay, ppl will start flying smaller ****. Is t3 small by your standards?
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Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
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Posted - 2010.06.04 10:52:00 -
[55]
the only problem you so called 'hardcore pvpers' seem to forget is you have loads of isk and new players don't so insurance helpsthem deal with those losses early, until they can afford to lose more. without it they just well... quit.
this is why ccp doesn't listen to you, because you seem to want no new players and just a cabal of trillionaires who are hardcore enough to lose ships without insurance (because you have so much money you don't need it.)
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.06.04 11:06:00 -
[56]
Originally by: MaxxOmega People have an overwhelming sense of entitlement.
quote of the thread tbfh
Zymurgist ACCIDENTALLY my thargoid |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.04 11:20:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian Edited by: Kyusoath Orillian on 04/06/2010 10:58:49 the only problem you so called 'hardcore pvpers' seem to forget is you have loads of isk and new players don't so insurance helpsthem deal with those losses early, until they can afford to lose more. without it they just well... quit.
this is why ccp doesn't listen to you, because you seem to want no new players and just a cabal of trillionaires who are hardcore enough to lose ships without insurance. (because you have so much money you don't need it.)
i should clarify that i am in favor of a removal of insurance completely, but only if these trillionaire s****have their isk taken away. then we'll see how hardcore they are.
Congratulations on finding the right corp for you.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.04 11:33:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/06/2010 11:33:21
Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian the only problem you so called 'hardcore pvpers' seem to forget is you have loads of isk and new players don't so insurance helpsthem deal with those losses early, until they can afford to lose more. without it they just well... quit.
Idk. When I first started pirating and figured I could use something larger then a frigate, I went for Tier 2 BCs. I had maybe 400M of starting capital, and anyway, in quite a short time of flying BCs that twindled to a mere 100-ish mil (fitting a ship was more expensive back then plus i had named guns which cost more then T2 plus armor rigs were damn expensive back then making the overall cost much much higher then it is now).
So, nearly broke, I decied to screw larger ships and go for frigates. I did that for maybe a year, pirating exclusively in a Rifter. Ended up having tons of fun, and making 600-700 million from loot/ransoms, and learned a thing or two about PVP while I was skilling to fly larger stuff competently. By the end of that time, I was quite confidently taking on Taranises, some crappier AFs, PVP pre-nano nerf Stabbers and other stuff like that. Making ISK PVP-ing became easy.
Then I got back into BCs, with good SP to back them and experience and a nice ISK buffer and, well, they made most of my remaining ISK and losing one wasn't a problem.
If you can't afford to lose something, don't fly it.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Natalie Caladan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.06.04 12:24:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian
the only problem you so called 'hardcore pvpers' seem to forget is you have loads of isk and new players don't so insurance helpsthem deal with those losses early, until they can afford to lose more. without it they just well... quit.
Nah. New players, they fly t1 frigates and what do those cost? A few L1 missions can already make you over 1 million (mainly from bonusses) and a t1 frigate is like .. 250k? Next to that people always hear "if you can't afford to lose it, do'n fly it" so keeping that in mind I don't think new players are a problem at all. Most rookies don't even know about insurance.
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Lord Helghast
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Posted - 2010.06.04 12:43:00 -
[60]
WTF ARE NEWBIES FLYING BS'S IN PVP FOR???!?!?!?!
And serious a 24m isk loss, i've lost more on a trade gone wrong then that lol...
RULE #1 of eve!!!!! FLY ONLY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOOSE, dont fly a capital unless u or your corp can replace it, dont fly battleships in pvp if you cant afford to replace it...
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