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Khorsabad
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.02 22:00:00 -
[1]
Hey there everybody Im new to EVE and Ive heard a lot of things in game and in the forums and just wanted to get a few opinions from those of you with the experience. Im a Calderi Merc and I know that Calderi ships are primarily missle ships. I have been told that missle ships are not good for PVP. I was wondering why this is?? Missle boats allow you to engage from a great distance and deal good damage. If distance is a issue then you have assault launchers made for short range combat. Also because missles need no power to fire if your capacitor gets drained you can still engage. Just looking for a little insight on the matter. I plan on PVPing as I get a little farther in the game. Righ now Im focusing on missle training, do I need to start to spend some time in other fields in order to hold my own in PVP? Thanks for your input
Khorsabad Maw. Merc Pilot.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence." |
DuKackBoon
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Posted - 2010.06.02 22:09:00 -
[2]
They have to fly to their destination first.
Defender missiles.
You don't hit small stuff with big missiles.
You don't hit small stuff with big missiles.
Did I mention you don't hit small stuff with big missiles?
Large guns at least here and then land a good hit.
Torps allways miss my ceptor :P
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unloadedx16
Firebird Squadron
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Posted - 2010.06.02 22:19:00 -
[3]
Missiles take time to get to their target so there not good in blobathons with like 200 players because by the time the missiles get there the target will likely be dead. There are ways around this (you can shoot at the secondary target while you friends shoot the primary). For smaller gangs like ~50 or less missiles are just fine. Cap-less, can pick damage type and, HAMS/TORPs do fantastic damage.
Also please search before posting. This question come up like every single week.
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Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.06.03 02:11:00 -
[4]
defender missiles don't seem to work for me at all in pVe. I must not be using them correctly. |
Bud Johnson
Rapscallions
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Posted - 2010.06.03 02:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Redpoppy defender missiles don't seem to work for me at all in pVe. I must not be using them correctly.
Defenders suck no matter how you use them.
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Cyan Cure
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Posted - 2010.06.03 11:38:00 -
[6]
Caldari have their share of gun boats, which are good, so you're not limited to just missiles. In big fleets missiles are undesired, because your target will be dead before your missiles even get to it.
Other than that they're great. Missiles have great effective range and no matter what the speed of your target is, they'll always deal damage. For now, you'll have access to two missile boats, the Caracal and the Drake.
Caracal is great with AML, they **** frigates hard. I usualy tackle bigger stuff too if i can kite it and have range superiority. Caracal is REALLY agile and pretty fast, so it's possible to kill some bigger ships with it. Caracal's DPS might not be extreme in EFT, but it's not affected by range or tracking, so it turns out to be on par in my case. As for the Drake you fit HAM for solo, HML for fleets, IMO it's the best BC for solo/small PvP.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.06.03 11:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cyan Cure Caldari have their share of gun boats, which are good, so you're not limited to just missiles.
This is very, very true. I was in a Rokh, working with a fleet of Ravens to take a POS down. I had picked the Rokh because I could get better range. Now I am a modestly skilled pilot, only level 3 in my gun skills apart from what is needed for large turrets. I was #4 I believe out of 12. Numbers 1 didn't count as he was a torp raven fighting at close range. The rest of of the Ravens were all Cruise missiles going for range combat also. Given that I was hitting at about 120 km, and still coming in with such high damage, don't discount the Caldari gun boats. They may not get the damage bonus that Gallante does to hybrid turrets, but they do get a nice range bonus, make for effective snipers.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.03 18:29:00 -
[8]
In warp disruptor range, the time to target really isn't significant. It is more of an issue when sniping at longer distances.
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Kastera
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Posted - 2010.06.03 18:40:00 -
[9]
Range for reffing a POS doesn't make much sense at all.
Caracal is **** when it comes to anti-frig fits. Most frigs will orbit at like 1 or 2k to get under your guns and so you scram/web them and AML's will tear through their buffer.
Drake gangs with scimmys/basis with ewar drones are very effective because they have high ehp and are hard to take down.
Other than that, missile boats pretty much suck. The caldari bs's suck in gangs because 95% of all bs gangs are armor tanked and caldari bs's just aren't preferred. Normally, caldari specc'd pilots are asked to fill support roles in these gangs for this reason. When I FC, the only caldari ships I normally want are the following: blackbird, falcon, rook, drake, caracal, cerebus. Mainly just bb, falcon, rook and cerebus though.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.06.03 19:03:00 -
[10]
If you opt for missiles, also remember there is on type of PvP ship you may like, Stealth Bombers.
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Erin Kinkade
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Posted - 2010.06.03 20:23:00 -
[11]
FOF missiles have their uses. Not main DPS but they can give ECM boats hell.
I'm just coming back after a year of being inactive so maybe they made them suck but missiles aren't all bad, they have a few advantages. In my experience, half of the people that tell you they completely suck are just EFT warriors.
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Mar Lee
An Army of None
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Posted - 2010.06.04 02:44:00 -
[12]
Advantages of missiles:
- completely selectable damage types - use no capacitor - do predictable damage; no random grazes or whatever - ignore transversal - ignore tracking disruption - can mitigate ECM (FoF missiles)
Disadvantages of missiles:
- travel time to target - damage is reduced against smaller, faster targets (depending on missile type) - sufficiently fast targets can outrun missiles entirely (depending, again, on missile type. Slow torpedo is sloooooow) - manual piloting is mostly useless (because missiles ignore transversal, maneuvering to reduce transversal doesn't help you hit any harder)
The reason missiles are suboptimal in large fleet battles is that, generally, fleet commanders like to call an enemy ship primary, that is, order the entire fleet to open fire on one ship at a time. That one ship chosen as target will be shot by dozens or hundreds of ships at once. If your missiles take ten seconds to get to the target, the target will very often be dead before those ten seconds are up.
There's also the issue that most ships of the line armor tank, and most remote repair is armor repair. Caldari ships shield tank, and almost all dedicated missile ships are Caldari. (Amarr have some T2 missile boats, but I hear they suck.)
That being said: in small gang PvP, which tends to take place at closer ranges and doesn't have the face-melting alpha strike damage of fleets of the line, missile ships really can shine. The Drake is an excellent PvP ship for a lot of reasons (google it); the only reason it's considered a PvEmobile is because it's even better at PvE. Torpedo Ravens are very nice as well. The Caracal, as mentioned above, is outstanding in certain roles. And of course the Scorpion and Blackbird have their own share of ECM awesomeness.
tl;dr: ignore the people who say missiles are bad for PvP. Like any weapon system, there are things missiles are very good at, and things missiles aren't so good at.
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Naveed Baki
Minmatar Mobility Innovations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 04:57:00 -
[13]
sacrilege, damnation and to some extent curse suck now because they have missiles?? news to me, sac is the hardest tanking hac in game, damnation obviously is invaluable for armor tanking fleets, curse is insane but isnt really a missile boat, how do you figure these ships "suck"?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.06.04 08:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Naveed Baki sacrilege, damnation and to some extent curse suck now because they have missiles?? news to me, sac is the hardest tanking hac in game, damnation obviously is invaluable for armor tanking fleets, curse is insane but isnt really a missile boat, how do you figure these ships "suck"?
The Damnation isn't there for its missiles, neither is the Curse. But the Sacrilege does indeed "suck", but that's not because of its missiles.
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Naveed Baki
Minmatar Mobility Innovations
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:04:00 -
[15]
I dont understand, why does it suck? i dont think it does, yes it lacks the dps of other hacs but the ability to hit resist holes makes up for that, the only problem i see is its the only hac thats basically stuck in scram/web range, but i dont think it "sucks" for that
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.06.04 11:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Naveed Baki I dont understand, why does it suck? i dont think it does, yes it lacks the dps of other hacs but the ability to hit resist holes makes up for that, the only problem i see is its the only hac thats basically stuck in scram/web range, but i dont think it "sucks" for that
I don't like the Sac because:
It has to operate within web range. Generally, if you take a HAC up against a BC in a close-range slugging match, the BC will win. HACs' advantages are in mobility and range - but the Sac has no range advantage and it mostly negates its own mobility advantage by having to go within web range. Once it is there, it has less DPS and EHP than a Drake but costs 100 mill more. It can fit a nice active tank, but...
How do you actually fit the thing? The advantage of a HAC is mobility and range; in the Sac's case just mobility. But to get a decent armour tank on the thing, we either want a plate or armour rigs, which reduce the mobility! With only five lowslots, a decent armour tank has no room for BCS, resulting in severely lacklustre DPS. A shield-buffered nano fit makes sense by allowing good mobility and DPS, but the shield resists and EHP are poor and the whole thing just screams "Use a Vaga!". With one more lowslot or medslot it could do either shield or armour well, but the current 4/5 just seems inadequate for both.
In gang, I'd far rather have a Cerberus, with its not-much-inferior DPS but immensely greater ability to project it. Solo, I'd prefer a Drake for expendability, or a more survivable HAC such as a Vaga. Simply, I have trouble answering the question "For what reason would I choose to fly a Sacrilege?"
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.06.04 11:47:00 -
[17]
Missiles are only bad when in fleets where primary targets die before your missiles reach them.
Drake+Scimmi blobs are great up to a certain point. The certain point being how many you have in fleet. I'd say the breaking point would be around 80?
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.05 02:53:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gypsio III It has to operate within web range. Generally, if you take a HAC up against a BC in a close-range slugging match, the BC will win.
Actually, the only HAC I will hesitate to engage with my drake (And with either HAM/HML fit) is a Sac. The possibility of it being a duel rep sac is very high, and those are hard to break without at least a medium neut ------------------------
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Khin'charin
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.06.05 07:29:00 -
[19]
Missiles sux for pvp, rite? -Khin
I run L4's in my rifter.
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Tanaka Reina
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Posted - 2010.06.05 11:52:00 -
[20]
Missiles are quite usefull in low sec warfare, granted they have their drawbacks. Lets take this Deimos kill from a while ago.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=10473985
Im fitted with 5x Heavy missile launcher t2
Sensor booster with range script MWD invul capacitor booster point
DC2 BCU2 targeting range about 105 km and range 102.8km -acceleration so i think its about 98km
and the thorax was http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=10472541
Thorax engaged him, going for scramble/web stuff, I stayed at 100km's and fired, it took a very long time for the missiles to hit the deimos, so long in fact that I was worried my range isnt good enough therefore got a bit closer. In that time the fight between thorax and the deimos had been pretty much figured out already, so after a while the thorax went boom and I was in 70-80km's and doing constant damage to it, in the end I won with 600 structure left.
But in gang warfare, especially if your using a sniper fit like I did, there is a problem with others being in the fight already and you are still waiting for the damage to be applied. It really means in situations like this, when your point is getting hit, and your not close enough to get a jammer in, your opponent has a choice if he wants to battle it out or get away. If he decides to fight, he will have to burn to range for doing damage to you, and all the volleys you have fired that are still in the way will land pretty fast at him, and he wont make damage to you in this time.
A Moa/Ferox/Rokh with railguns are good in ranged too, but still are not as fast as other factions ships, and if the enemy gets close, your damage is pretty much 0. A problem which isnt there with missiles. Of course you could blaster fit them but in truth, I would use an Autocannon Moa/Ferox if I would use them, but for autocannons, there are also better ships :)
Caldari are a missile race, only Rokh is a serious hybrid platform in the caldari line of ships. Missiles are good, and require skills in how to keep range, or how to distrupt faster ships orbit. All things in Eve have a good and a bad side :) exluding the rifter of course.
Also check out stealth bombers <3
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Khin'charin
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.06.05 13:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tanaka Reina Stuff about missiles
You seem to be someone who knows what she's talking about. Do you teach classes by any chance?
-Khin
I run L4's in my rifter.
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Naveed Baki
Minmatar Mobility Innovations
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Posted - 2010.06.05 13:30:00 -
[22]
sac should be able to take any bc 1v1 ... even drakes, its just difficult with drakes, any other bc is a cakewalk though. neuts being the only problem ofc, so dual med neut canes and stuff are not good for it, but really, for solo or small gang pvp, there is nothing wrong with missiles
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PegLegJack
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Posted - 2010.06.08 01:57:00 -
[23]
Ok well here is a question I have for all you elite FC out there. Why is it that all always read that missiles are no good in blob fights(how big does a fleet have to be to be a blob anyway) because by the time missiles hit the target is destroyed? If I were a blob fleet commander this is how I would try to do things.(I am in fact noobish so feel free to through out theories only work in theory trolls) Have wing commanders in fact lead there wings in stead of just holding down the ganglink chain. Wing commanders call targets to there groups and thus the fleet as a whole hits multiple targets while still being concentrated enough to pop instapop. also this would allow for caldari ships to be able to use missiles on ship that arent dead by the time missiles arrive AND allowing caldari to be sheild repped while other wings are armor repped, thus i believe making it more difficult for oppenents. Is this to complicated or am I just noob?
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Podcat
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.08 10:19:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Podcat on 08/06/2010 10:20:59 most missile boats are good. drakes in particular shine in a lot of roles.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.08 10:58:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/06/2010 10:58:11
Originally by: Naveed Baki sac should be able to take any bc 1v1 ... even drakes, its just difficult with drakes, any other bc is a cakewalk though. neuts being the only problem ofc, so dual med neut canes and stuff are not good for it, but really, for solo or small gang pvp, there is nothing wrong with missiles
"Even Drakes" suggests that the Drake is the top damage dealer of the BC class, and it really isn't. The Hurricane is the BC-sized damage monster (Myrmidon more or less on par with shield gank fit but you have good resists vs kinetic and stuff). Drake wins out on tank.
But yeah, it's the neuts which are going to kill it easiest (actually, it's the -you're tackled-.... local is jumping.... fuuuuuu... which is going to kill it easiest since it's a more or less shiny ship fighting in point blank range, but ok).
But yeah, missiles are just fine.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Starnap
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.06.08 11:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: PegLegJack Ok well here is a question I have for all you elite FC out there. Why is it that all always read that missiles are no good in blob fights(how big does a fleet have to be to be a blob anyway) because by the time missiles hit the target is destroyed? If I were a blob fleet commander this is how I would try to do things.(I am in fact noobish so feel free to through out theories only work in theory trolls) Have wing commanders in fact lead there wings in stead of just holding down the ganglink chain. Wing commanders call targets to there groups and thus the fleet as a whole hits multiple targets while still being concentrated enough to pop instapop. also this would allow for caldari ships to be able to use missiles on ship that arent dead by the time missiles arrive AND allowing caldari to be sheild repped while other wings are armor repped, thus i believe making it more difficult for oppenents. Is this to complicated or am I just noob?
In theory sounds good - in practice too complicated to co-ordinate different wings attacking different targets. Big fleet fights are hard to direct as it is, FCs like to keep things simple.
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.08 12:40:00 -
[27]
its certainly possible using the broadcast system but its increasing the complexity of the engagement, most fcs have enough to worry about as is without giving themselves more work.
the other issue is split fire is usually less effective than alpha-move on although that does depend on numbers again.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
Naveed Baki
Minmatar Mobility Innovations
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Posted - 2010.06.08 14:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/06/2010 10:58:11
Originally by: Naveed Baki sac should be able to take any bc 1v1 ... even drakes, its just difficult with drakes, any other bc is a cakewalk though. neuts being the only problem ofc, so dual med neut canes and stuff are not good for it, but really, for solo or small gang pvp, there is nothing wrong with missiles
"Even Drakes" suggests that the Drake is the top damage dealer of the BC class, and it really isn't. The Hurricane is the BC-sized damage monster (Myrmidon more or less on par with shield gank fit but you have good resists vs kinetic and stuff). Drake wins out on tank.
But yeah, it's the neuts which are going to kill it easiest (actually, it's the -you're tackled-.... local is jumping.... fuuuuuu... which is going to kill it easiest since it's a more or less shiny ship fighting in point blank range, but ok).
But yeah, missiles are just fine.
i say "even drakes" because they are annoying and always hit for damn near full damage, turret ships you can work on getting under their tracking, missile ships you cant really do this, plus the amount of tank and dps they have is quite rediculous
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Tanaka Reina
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Posted - 2010.06.09 08:09:00 -
[29]
I mush have been drunk when writing that O.o oh well.
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Hidden Snake
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.09 08:51:00 -
[30]
AML caracal (or navy version) HMLS, HAM drakes SML crow Torp raven
For all these you need really good skills, but once you have them they shine over gunboats.
Fit t2 launchers (in HMLS precisions can hurt small stuf)
also all stealth bombers with good skills shine.
So surprisingly in pvp in missile boats u need more EVE skills and little bit less piloting skills then in gunboats.
"There is no honor in war" |
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