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Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2012.07.15 18:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Considering how they hadn't even properly thought of how to make it work properly and not completely break highsec PVP the longer it takes to show up the better. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.15 19:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Because making it so that people who are flagged with aggression can be shot at by everyone in space but will get concorded if they shoot back is totally "fixing" highsec PVP.
That's straight up what was proposed at fanfest in the presentation and even after acknowledging that it was a bad idea in the roundtable that came after it they weren't able a think of a way for the suspect flagging system to allow suspects to shoot back without being concorded.
I don't know about you, but I don't think that mechanics like that showing up on TQ would be a good thing. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.15 21:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
The inevitable end result will be that the new system will be more difficult to understand than the old system, even if what is happening serverside is simpler. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.15 22:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The inevitable end result will be that the new system will be more difficult to understand than the old system, even if what is happening serverside is simpler. Challenge keeps things interesting and actually can't be worst than what it is. High sec PVP fans say they love pvp, witch seems to be true, but I'd like to see what happens if they start getting flagged and spanked by other players just waiting flags, unlike know they're pretty much safe behind concord exploiting aggression mechanics. I pretty much like the idea every action brings consequences and the fact no one should be safe, whenever it comes to make choices in high sec it shouldn't be the joke it is with neutral repps/jam/boost, there should be real consequences just like in low sec/null/wh space. Those are not trusting Concord mechanics to get it done the easy way. This post is probably the single most ignorant thing I've ever read on these forums, it's literally the opposite of reality.
As it is right now you can always shoot neutral reps that someone you're fighting is using unless they happen to be in the same corporation as you. If you don't believe me go and find someone, shoot at them and have a third party rep them, you'll be amazed to learn that you can shoot the third party with impunity. To reiterate, with the current aggression system you can always shoot at anyone who is remotely assisting someone that is shooting at you, nobody is "safe behind concord".
However as CCP Greyscale just said what he wants to do is make it so that you can be shooting someone who is suspect flagged and be receiving neutral RR and the suspect won't be able to shoot the neutral RR.
It is literally a step backwards from what you just said you wanted. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
733
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Posted - 2012.07.16 00:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's nice to have a straight up admission that you are literally trying to discourage highsec PVP. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
733
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Posted - 2012.07.16 00:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
You know, shooting at people in highsec. In this context specifically when the people being shot at aren't at war with you. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
733
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Posted - 2012.07.16 01:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jason Xado wrote:Grinder2210 wrote: There are 4 types of pvp in highsec as i currently stands
1 wardecs 2 sucide ganking 3 Can baiting / fliping 4 Corp pvp
That is my understanding. And since the suspect flag only applies to option number 3 then I would assume that it the "highsec PVP" that is being refered to. Grinder also missed ninja salvaging as well as intentionally putting out "fight" cans to cause engagements of varying scales. Can flipping, remote repping for aggro, can baiting and "fight" cans can all be put under the general label of "Intentionally gaining an aggression countdown so that an individual or members of a corporation or alliance can shoot you". |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
734
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Posted - 2012.07.16 01:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Literally the only thing CCP Greyscale cares about is removing individual aggression flags. The resultant gameplay being good or making sense doesn't factor in to it. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 02:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
It should probably be noted that individual aggression flags are the only thing keeping you able to shoot someone once the original reason why you're able to shoot them expires. And in situations where you don't gain individual times for attacking a person or object what happens when you're still shooting when the original reason you're able to shoot it stops being the case is that you get concorded instantly and without warning.
For example if you're shooting somebody who you're in corp with and that person is accepted into a different corp, or leaves their ship, docks up and quits corp while you're still shooting you get concorded without warning. Or if you're attacking a container like a GSC because you have aggression against its owner and the timer against the owner runs out then you get concorded without warning.
In a future with no individual timers at all everyone can look forward to getting concorded without warning even more often. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 02:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:I presume fighting would extend the length of the suspect flag, I'm also guessing you wouldn't be able to shoot a GSC because you wouldn't be able to pick up individual aggression against the owner/corp? If you're able to shoot the owner you have to be able to shoot a things owned by him as well, otherwise you wouldn't be able to shoot his drones.
A bigger issue than that is that without individual flags the only thing keeping you able to shoot a war target that you are engaging is the fact that he is in a corporation that you are at war with. That might not seem like a huge issue, but corp hopping out of a corp while you're at war is already a thing, and you can leave a corp in space by having an application in to another player corp.
So you will be able to put an application in to a corporation, go and engage war targets and if you're losing have your application accepted and everyone shooting you will instantly be concorded without warning. Even in a best case scenario where that doesn't happen the person corp hopping will be able to escape.
The reason that doesn't happen right now is that shooting anyone gives you an individual timer against them so even if they leave their corporation while you're shooting them you are still able to attack each other because of the individual timer.
Greyscale's crimewatch could not be more of a step backwards in terms of the effect it will have on gameplay. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
736
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Posted - 2012.07.16 05:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
We allow one-time mappings but we don't make them transitive, ie if you're a suspect and someone shoots you then you can always fire back, but if that person has a third party repping them, you can't shoot the logi because we don't allow aggression transfer like that (for obvious reasons).
This is precisely what is wrong with all the existing game design in the first place. I'd like to point out for the billionth time that with the current game mechanics you will never be in a situation where you are shooting someone who is being assisted by logi and you can't shoot the logi. Once again because repetition helps people remember, it is currently the that logistics will always be flagged towards whoever is shooting at the person they are assisting.
So greyscale's crimewatch isn't even a failure to move forward, it is a direct step backwards. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 05:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:Concord should work like the police in GTA, if you can make it to a station and change paintjobs, they forget everything you ever did. Didn't you hear what Greyscale said? Fun gameplay isn't allowed in highsec. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
736
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
You should talk to GM Homonia about teaching people that highsec is for PVE and if that anyone bothers you while you're missioning or mining you're entitled to have them banned. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
736
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't think you understood the situation in which you'd be able to use neutral RR without anyone ever being able to shoot at you.
It's totally irrelevant to goons and nullsec alliances in general. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
736
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
mkint wrote:it's useful for any who want to go around being a nuisance in highsec. You have no idea what you're talking about. Go back and actually read the posts. The people who will be able to receive RR without the RR getting flagged will be people shooting suspect flagged characters. The only thing goons do in highsec is gank folks and very occasionally shoot at war targets, in neither of those situations will they be using RR either at all or in a way that it won't be attack-able by someone.
mkint wrote:Personally, I don't understand how people think the existing aggro system is complicated. It's not. You do something against someone, they get aggro rights on you. It's basically a "do you deserve it?" equation. All this new "well, you're now a suspect but then you become a vigilante, then you can be a sheriff but you have to chew space-tobacco" crap is just some dude trying to justify his position in a company that can no longer keep track of it's own employees. Bureaucracy at work.
This part is pretty much exactly the case. I get the impression that CCP Greyscale just wants to be able to say that he completed some big project and doesn't even remotely care what the actual outcome is. He very obviously couldn't care less about crimewatch actually leading to sensible, working gameplay that is fun. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
736
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:You have no idea what you're talking about. Go back and actually read the posts. It's not as if two members of two wealthy nullsec alliances loaded to the teeth with technetium have been posting against the idea of immune RR! I'm at a total loss as to what goons would even be doing in highsec that would involve un-shootable logistics.
I mean even if you're in highsec shooting jita campers and the jita campers have logistics that has gone suspect for repping a war target the logistics that are repping you are going to either: A) Be in corp/alliance where the war targets will be able to shoot them anyway B) Be neutral and also be suspect flagged because the people they have been repping are at war.
You'd have to bring neutral combat characters and neutral logistics for it to even make sense.
Although maybe I missed something and there's now a huge anti-ninja salvaging movement in GSF. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote: I assume you mean "for obvious server performance reasons" there because from a gameplay standpoint, that stinks and is one of the things everyone hates about neutral RR as it stands.
Yet again I'm going to have to point out that it is NOT currently the case that neutral RR can't be shot at.
Right now on TQ if someone is repping someone that you are shooting at you can shoot the person that is repping them and if the person they are repping has aggression versus your corp or alliance then your corp or alliance can shoot the person repping too. It has been that way for as long as I have been playing the game.
Within the current game mechanics there is no invulnerable logistics.
I feel like I'm going to have to post that on every single page because apparently nobody actually knows what the current mechanics are and just assumes that logistics is invulnerable when repping in highsec even though it's totally untrue. |

Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
They can dock or jump regardless of the type of space they are in. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Aggression Transfer is Bad I know right! Heaven forfend that people be able to shoot at the people who are actively performing aggressive actions against them. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
736
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ohh Yeah wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:They can dock or jump regardless of the type of space they are in. And in every type of space, sitting on a station and repping makes you 100% invulnerable. You'd have to be an idiot to die while motoring around the station in docking range repairing your friendlies. Not only can they shoot you, but doing so only baits the DPS off of your friendlies while they continue to die. You can bait into low armor and then dock your precious Guardian up and then come right back out. That's a joke. That should never have been allowed to go on as long as it has. The gentleman I quoted was talking specifically about neutral RR, the lack of a weapons timer on logistics has literally nothing to do with its neutrality so I'm still failing to see how brining this entire thing up is relevant. I don't disagree, it just has nothing to do with what I was talking about. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'd really like to see how the idea that someone can be shooting at you and receiving remote reps but if you shoot the repping parties you get a blast of concord to the face could possibly be presented well. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Err that's literally what he said. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 07:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
dexington wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:I'd really like to see how the idea that someone can be shooting at you and receiving remote reps but if you shoot the repping parties you get a blast of concord to the face could possibly be presented well. No one said it should be easy to pvp in hi-sec. Seems pretty easy for the people who can be remotely assisted by as many people as they can find with no danger of ever being shot at to me. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 07:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
It's all part of my plan you see. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 13:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
I can't believe a dev literally just said that PVP is bad and that players trying to do it should get punished.
That's ******* astonishing. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 13:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:I can't believe a dev literally just said that PVP is bad and that players trying to do it should get punished. Good thing that he didn't, then.  Except for the part where that's exactly what he said. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 13:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
I know you really get off on playing backseat dev at fanfest, but I didn't realize that they'd actually started paying you to support their clearly moronic game design decisions, or maybe you're just verbally fellating greyscale to try and get dev buddy points? Rather than repeating the party line at me why don't you try actually thinking about what that actually means for players.
It is punishment for initiating PVP in no uncertain terms. |

Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2012.07.16 14:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Initiating PVP therefore is bad and you should be punished for doing it. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 14:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
You can just go ahead and say that you think that highsec PVP shouldn't exist, nobody will begrudge you your opinion, but pretending that "if someone did something to you then you specifically are allowed to retaliate at your own risk" is the same as "If someone did something to you anyone in the game can retaliate against them with the odds artificially stacked in their favour" is dishonest.
It doesn't matter how many quotation marks you put around the word bad. If game design stacks the odds against people for doing something the thing that they are doing is being discoruaged, if something is just "bad" and not actually bad then the game mechanics shouldn't actively discourage it. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 14:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tippia wrote:In fact, if you want to cry about something, you've missed the really annoying change with the new system GÇö the one that will actually make a difference for thieves and canflippers: the safety system. Safeties in and of themselves will have virtually no effect on canflipping, although I can see how you'd think that if your entire understanding of canflipping came from reading wikis about it that were written by people whos entire understanding of canflipping came from wikis about it.
People virtually never steal back a flipped can, in practice you're more likely to see a hulk set its drones on a canflipper than actually try and take their ore back. When you canflip someone what you're actually trying to do is get the person you flipped or their corp members to shoot at you so the safeties are virtually a non-issue. |

Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2012.07.16 14:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
I'll argue that one with anyone because I've got like 30 barge/exhumer kills from canflipping and not a single one ever took stuff out of a container.
I understand where the argument comes from, but it makes the assumption that getting kills from canflipping relies on people being able to steal ore back from you without knowing what they are doing and it just plain doesn't. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
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Posted - 2012.07.16 15:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote: People virtually never steal back a flipped can, in practice you're more likely to see a hulk set its drones on a canflipper than actually try and take their ore back. When you canflip someone what you're actually trying to do is get the person you flipped or their corp members to shoot at you so the safeties are virtually a non-issue.
Um no - simply not true. Many folk try to flip their cans back - and there are many ways to successfully steal your can back if you take the time to learn them. And yes the goal is not to get the person to shoot at you but to flip the can - that way you and your friends can shoot at them. But of course if no one ever bothered to reflip the cans then there would be no need for ccp to force the safeties on its players. Horseshit. The only time anyone ever takes a can back is in a hauler, and if they're intent on doing that then they're going to disable their safeties to do it. Also generally speaking I'd much rather get kills on the half a dozen combat ships belonging to the corporation I'm canflipping that come to shoot me then having my entire corp come along to gank a single itty 5, I don't know about you though.
People who're successful at getting their cans back will be just as successful in a system with safeties and you'll be just as unable to kill them as you are now, it's not like you won't be able to turn them off when you're specifically trying to do something that you know will get you flagged.
The problem with safeties is that if by default you're unable to attack flagged characters without disabling a safety it's a get out of jail free card for braindead mission runners in 30 billion isk mission ships. |

Vimsy Vortis
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Posted - 2012.07.16 18:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Arcueid Saber wrote:We already get the big statement from CCP about null sec, what they intent it to be. With Incursion and Faction Warfare revamp, we get a blurred picture about low sec intention. So can we get a big statement about High sec and CCP intention for it? CCPs intention for highsec is very obviously an almost completely PVE environment where PVP is just barely possible enough that they can still claim that EVE is a game with open PVP. |
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