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Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
147
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Posted - 2012.07.16 22:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
The new mechanics as described here are the other reason the IEEE will be shutting down.
Stealing from jet-cans is one of the ways that the IEEE keeps the office in paper and staples. And also provides many teachable moments to folks who attempted to stop us.
What it provided, was a nice easy way to attempt to get some aggression going in a limited fashion. Warp to a belt, and there are four barges, a hauler and a rifter. Bustle the battle iteron up to the can and take it all. And usually that rifter is going to light you up.
And usually that rifter is going to die. Soon to be followed by one or more of the barges present as they try to gang up on you. And as they yell in local for help. You were aware of who was in local because you looked. How many of them, how many of you, you watched like a hawk for others coming in and out of local. You see a spike of 'them' and you finish what you can and take off. Or look at the d-scan to see what they are bringing. Can you tank it and spank it? Some folks show up to watch. On occasion you get a white knight out there with remote repair.
Or you catch someone mining in a navy apoc
You have a nice, limited engagement. And only overconfident or dumb people do the dumb thing. With risk of someone wandering in and finishing you off if you aren't careful. And I do get blown up plenty often doing this.
With the new changes, this is going to go by the wayside. No more grand theft navy apoc. Even stealing ore for fun and profit will go away as the limited engagement envelope disappear. Adding the 'vigilante' flag helps with organized groups of suspects. Making a pick-up game of 0.0 play. (suspects vs vigilantes or red v blue) but it still effectively cuts out the one guy trying to watch the world learn.
Realistically, anyone shooting a suspect should probably also be a suspect. You want to get involved in someone else's business? Mind you, the poor miner defending himself should not become a suspect. He was directly affronted. So what to do?
Let's see...a steals from corp b's can. And goes suspect, also creates an aggression link to corp b.
Member of corp b starts to shoot a. A can shoot member of corp b because there is an aggression link from b to a directly now. All members of corp b who choose to shoot get an aggression link to a. The timer on the 'corp' aggression counts down like it does currently. The 'suspect' flag keeps resetting to 15 minutes as long as A keeps doing stuff that looks suspicious. Shooting at valid aggression targets count.
So far, we're all cool. Guys can defend themselves, suspect is shootable by everyone. Nobody has nosed in on the fight.
So a's can flipping hauler dies after 5 minutes. He still has 15 minutes of 'suspect' time. Plus 15 minutes vs some members of corp b. He returns 10 minutes later. The corporate aggression is gone. He is still a suspect. So say he starts to mop the floor with the members of corp b who foolishly stayed out there. The rest of the corpmates can still intervene. But at the cost of becoming suspects themselves. Or someone else can wander in and white knight. Becoming a suspect themselves to protect the 'innocent' (and possibly get shot themselves). Folks applying remote repair? Get 15 minutes of suspect.
This way we get a limited amount of keeping track of aggression specific to a single act. And a big global 'Shoot at me' flag. It still hammers down on my preferred methods of behaving in EvE. But it is more, fair. Do something suspicious? Get a suspect flag. Shoot a suspect without a valid reason? You are a suspect since it is awfully suspicious to just shoot someone suspected of doing something wrong. If you are defending yourself or your corporation? No suspect flag.
How does that sound? No transitive aggression timers. Easy to limit aggression timers. And big global suspect flag timers. (And since the big global flag is on a pilot basis, can we please get this visible so we know they only have 5 seconds worth of timer left, and possibly the same thing with GCC? Nice little round pie wedge gague of how much aggression is left.)
Hm, that was awfully rambling. But looks like it might work without having to involve a vigilante that can be gamed into aggro creation.
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Zedrik Cayne
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
153
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 19:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm pretty sure we can simply rename the 'suspect' flag to the 'buttinski' flag and have a really simple set of rules.
1) Am I interfering with someone upon whom I don't have some sort of timer? (War declaration or aggression for example) Then I get the buttinski flag.
2) Actively helping anyone with the buttinski flag gives you the buttinski flag.
3) Shooting someone with a buttinski will get you a buttinski unless you have another reason (corporate aggresssion timer, personal aggression timer, war declaration)
4) RRing or otherwise supporting a pilot engaged with a buttinski will get you the flag unless you have some other timer with the buttinski. (So, if you were in the corporation that a pilot stole from, you have a corporate wide aggression timer you may act on, so your RR activities are not butting in. You will still get an individual aggression flag to the buttinski'd pilot, but no global buttinski)
So, two different corporations at war with a third corporation may rr each other since neither side is 'butting in'. At least if no other third party is involved. (ie: If corporation a and corp b are at war with corp c... and corp a guy is shooting corp c...then corp b can rr corp a and not get a buttinski. If corp a guy is shooting a suspect and corp b RR's him...he is butting into something he has no timer with and gets a buttinski.)
How does this sound? (Other than the stupid name of 'buttinski') Individual aggression does not extend beyond one level of pilots. It still allows corpmates to help their stricken bretheren (Even if the 15 minute corporation timer for a can theft has expired) at the expense of having 'butted in' to a fight.
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Zedrik Cayne
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
153
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 20:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Zedrik Cayne wrote:I'm pretty sure we can simply rename the 'suspect' flag to the 'buttinski' flag and have a really simple set of rules.
1) Am I interfering with someone upon whom I don't have some sort of timer? (War declaration or aggression for example) Then I get the buttinski flag.
2) Actively helping anyone with the buttinski flag gives you the buttinski flag.
3) Shooting someone with a buttinski will get you a buttinski unless you have another reason (corporate aggresssion timer, personal aggression timer, war declaration)
4) RRing or otherwise supporting a pilot engaged with a buttinski will get you the flag unless you have some other timer with the buttinski. (So, if you were in the corporation that a pilot stole from, you have a corporate wide aggression timer you may act on, so your RR activities are not butting in. You will still get an individual aggression flag to the buttinski'd pilot, but no global buttinski)
So, two different corporations at war with a third corporation may rr each other since neither side is 'butting in'. At least if no other third party is involved. (ie: If corporation a and corp b are at war with corp c... and corp a guy is shooting corp c...then corp b can rr corp a and not get a buttinski. If corp a guy is shooting a suspect and corp b RR's him...he is butting into something he has no timer with and gets a buttinski.)
How does this sound? (Other than the stupid name of 'buttinski') Individual aggression does not extend beyond one level of pilots. It still allows corpmates to help their stricken bretheren (Even if the 15 minute corporation timer for a can theft has expired) at the expense of having 'butted in' to a fight. Who's allowed to shoot those with the buttinski flag?
Anybody. Whether or not they get a buttinski flag themselves depends on whether or not they have a good reason. Like 'Dude stole my milkshake!' or 'Dude is already at war with me' means that you aren't butting in. So no flag for you. If you wanna be a white knight and butt in...you get a buttinski flag.
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Zedrik Cayne
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
153
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 20:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:So it's the suspect flag. Except that shooting suspects will also make you a suspect.
EDIT: Did not notice the first line of your post where you said exactly that.
I think we've been over why the global flags aren't a great idea.
Yup. But it is more descriptive of 'why' you are getting the flag. Rather neatly covers most of the surprise aggression the suspect/vigilante flag system would have involved. (You really want to shoot at that buttinski you buttinski?) And removes the proliferation of aggression timers that is the real reason they have been wanting to change the system in the first place so their servers can be happier.
That and you could call folks 'buttinski' in game. Because they would be buttinski.
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Zedrik Cayne
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
153
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 20:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:For this to work the game still needs to maintain a list of pilot vs pilot rights. That is it needs to have a list of which pilots can shoot which other pilots without getting the flag.
The entire idea of the new system is to eliminate the need to track pilot vs pilot rights of any sort. That's not to say its a bad idea, it may be to get a workable system a list of pilot vs pilot rights of some sort is needed.
They have already stated that they want some folks to be able to shoot at suspects without getting flags themselves. So there has to be some sort of pilot vs pilot rights. But they don't want the pilot timers transferable which is what the actual problem is (the whole chaining of timers means replicating timers everywhere and updating a whole lot of stuff on multiple pilots all the time)
Examples that have been given include can flipping. They don't want the people who were stolen from to get omgsurpriseexploded if they steal their stuff back or shoot the buttinski. At the same time the buttinski should be able to defend himself. So they need the pilot vs pilot rights. As well as corp vs pilot timers. (If you stole from a corporation can, my whole corp should be able to shoot at you without being considered 'buttinskis')
At the same time... Anyone who does butt in; the white knight, the 'paid security', or even another pirate-y player, runs a very real risk of getting shot into pieces by other white knights, paid security or pirate-y players.
At the very least it can add the whole new profession of 'private security' in highsec. As well as 'the guy who wanders around flagged all the time with backup following 2 jumps behind' in an attempt to get some cheap ganks going. As well as making stealing from cans and wrecks on a gate way more dangerous.
Risk is more balanced. Sure, stealing from a can is dangerous. But not much more dangerous than it was before. Chances are folks aren't going to white knight for fear of the guy can flipping having friends. Unless they think they have enough friends to deal with the situation.
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Zedrik Cayne
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
153
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 21:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Back to square one, eh? It seems like options are being exhausted. I still haven't seen anything not riddled with loopholes. I just think now that empire is going to be SO safe that there will be no reason not to faction or officer fit everything, because nobody can do anything about it. The rewards will be good in empire and the safety will increase... kinda makes me mad. Empire needs a value nerf stat. I'm over it.
~fin
Thing is, we're not back to square one. We have some...interesting side effects already of the changes they are making to crimewatch. The refactoring is introducing subtle changes to the mechanics already. It is just stuff you don't normally see because you don't ride the edges of the game mechanics hard enough during normal play.
I've seen enough odd stuff that I will probably try out on SiSi later now. Just to see if the changes I think they are making are in the same ball park.
They are trying to untie the gordian knot by using scissors and glue to cut a piece out..and glue the ends back together in a more convenient spot. Creating something under a new system that works like the old one. Stuff they don't announce in patch notes suddenly acting subtly differently. (Have you noticed that you can no longer keep looking at objects over 100km away?) Now, I doubt that is because of the crimewatch refactoring. But who knows why it suddenly started to behave as it probably should have for years with nary a peep about the fix.
We're well beyond where we could even think about going back to square one. Now to see if we cannot get CCP to implement something reasonably good that also satisfies their stated goals.
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Zedrik Cayne
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
155
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 22:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:A global flag upon theft makes Suicide Ganking Freighters prohibitively dangerous (especially if you wrap your cargo up in something bigger than anything a non-freighter can carry). The looting freighter will almost certainly get tackled and killed. (So the new Freighter safe cargo limit would be something like 5-8b to compensate for the risk of freighter loss).
A global flag essentially kills canflipping as a mini-profession (If CCP wants to do this, they should come out and say it), since canflipping is all about getting into a limited engagement.
A global flag kills HS 1v1s, since now everybody can come shoot you because you stole.
A global flag makes HS safer for carebears.
Heh.. I'd say HTFU. Whatever CCP decides to do. I'll take a look at the rules. And then decide what to do with myself. Right now I'm just making a suggestion. The best I can come up with given the limited resources of stated design goals. And some assumptions about what they think is easy/best to implement (aka: The suspect flag) and just change it enough to make it usable and less unbalanced towards the 'victims' (ie: The buttinski flag)
Yes, it makes you folks suicide ganking freighters have to think twice about it. But then again, you can have enough falcons/blackbirds handy to get your freighter off the hook.
This isn't going to kill the canflipper.. It is going to kill the *solo* canflipper. Who is me. That doesn't mean I won't be able to bend whatever new system is into a pretzel should I need it. I'm just not going to be able to do it the same way I used to.
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
Zedrik Cayne
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
155
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 14:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The inevitable end result will be that the new system will be more difficult to understand than the old system, even if what is happening serverside is simpler. Yes, Eve is far too hard. Please make it so simpletons can join in.
Simpletons with fat wallets and bad senses of judgement?
You are the internet equivalent of a Mars bar filled with stupid. |
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