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Mynxee
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.06.06 21:03:00 -
[1]
CSM5 Meeting #2 will take place Saturday 12 June 2010 at 16:30 EVE time. All CSM5 Delegates and Alternates are invited to attend.
Note to Community: We are piloting a 2nd Saturday/4th Sunday meeting schedule through July. There will be no meeting on 27 June due to the Summit in Iceland on 23-25 June.
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Draft Agenda
A. Roll Call
B. Issues (submission deadline 10 June 2010)
C. Summit Agenda & Planning Review
D. Other Business
*Carried over from Meeting #1 due to time constraints.
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Life In Low Sec |
TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.06 23:12:00 -
[2]
Reserved
TeaDaze.net |
Korvin
Gallente
Shadow Kingdom
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Posted - 2010.06.07 08:10:00 -
[3]
Reserved
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.06.08 23:04:00 -
[4]
New Issue
Improve Overload User Interface Thread | Wiki
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.06.14 13:27:00 -
[5]
Raw logs are available on the wiki.
If you don't wish to wade through the raw logs then the CSM Database has also been updated and has the voting results plus direct links to the proposals.
Verbose summary versions of the minutes along with a PDF are planned but delayed due to AT8 and prep for the summit next week.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.06.14 16:10:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: TeaDaze
Verbose summary versions of the minutes along with a PDF are planned but delayed due to AT8 and prep for the summit next week.
I cried a little when you died yesterday :(
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Jan Forjeu
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Posted - 2010.06.17 21:00:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jan Forjeu on 17/06/2010 21:01:28
Really cool you guys making this all public.
ps. If there is some rule I missed about this thread being csm guys only I apologize.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.06.17 23:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jan Forjeu
Edited by: Jan Forjeu on 17/06/2010 21:01:28
Really cool you guys making this all public.
ps. If there is some rule I missed about this thread being csm guys only I apologize.
The whole process is as open as we can make it and we welcome other players' comments about the issues we raise.
Due to the short time between the first 3 meetings, AT8, preparing for the trip as well as getting ahead of things at work (so I don't return to a mess  ) the edited minutes are still work in progress. Rest assured I will be working on them at the airport tomorrow as I wait for my flight 
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Gavjack Bunk
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Posted - 2010.06.18 09:36:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Gavjack Bunk on 18/06/2010 09:36:47
All my heart....
Yeah, I got your heart right here, in this Less than one page of supports...
And here with with nearly two pages of supports.
Add them together, and the total is still less than the nearly eight pages of supports for the folders you agreed "with all your heart".
A most welcome improvement.
Very enthusiastically supported.
So what do you think ALL MY HEART means? Do you love your partner with all your heart, or "very enthusiastically", or is she "most welcome"?
Your words... they don't match your actions.
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On planets... nobody can see you macro mining... |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.06.18 14:27:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Mynxee on 18/06/2010 14:33:24
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Your words... they don't match your actions.
I certainly could have filled the roster to overflowing with proposals I support. But there are factors at play which affected why I did not raise the issues you linked: the time it takes to prep an issue for presentation in a CSM meeting (some take longer than others, some are likely to be more controversial and need more research to be able to champion them in an informed way), the goal of keeping CSM meetings to about 2 hours, the potential amount of time needed for the Summit agenda discussion related to negotiations with CCP about what was important to CSM and needed time, the fact that 8 other people were entitled to raise issues for the meeting and might do so at the last minute, and historic precedent suggesting that a max of 8-10 issues per meeting even when there is no Summit agenda discussion is a realistic goal.
I know you're scathingly skeptical about the CSM process. TBH, I welcome this--it's good to know that players care enough to hold us to task. I hope we can demonstrate some accomplishments over the next several months that will chip away at that skepticism.
Bear in mind we were just seated 13 days ago and required to be ready for a Summit a mere 17 days after taking our CSM seats. Also remember this is a volunteer activity; all of us have RL obligations--some of them considerable, especially so given they must be managed to permit us to extract ourselves from them to go to Iceland for essentially a week (without pay in my case, I might add, since I don't have sufficient paid time off on the books to use for the trip). On a side note, the amount of time required for CSM activities is significant. Even at half my normal consulting rates, the "free" trip to Iceland doesn't come close to compensating for the hours I've put in. Not complaining (I was aware of the time it took even if you did a half assed job), just stating facts.
Give us a chance. We will have 10 meetings between the June and December summits. I can pretty much guarantee you'll see the issues you linked--and many more--raised in CSM meetings and submitted for consideration at the December summit.
Life In Low Sec |
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Gavjack Bunk
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Posted - 2010.06.18 14:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mynxee
that stuff above...
What can we do to give you what you need, in terms of information and research towards an informed presentation?
You're in Noir, you already know everything I know therefore about how those folders were used, because it's entirely likely we use them for exactly the same thing, keeping track of members of dozens of Entities Of Interest. I'm hearing that certain industrial and trader types used them to keep track of Entities Of Entirely Different Interest.
As the folders were stored on our PCs it seems to me that CCP would not be easily able to make themselves aware of just how many people used those folders, thus making them a low priority in terms of functionality to be lost.
As yes, I'm throroughly skeptical about the CSM being in a position to rectify this issue, even to the point that even if it did raise it, and ccp did fix it, that's not even proof that it was the CSM that prompted the remedial action. In so much that CCP developed eve and corrected errors long before the CSM existed.
But since it's here, and since it's rammed down our throats once a year, and since CCP like to pretend they listen to it, and since it pretends it listens to us, let's see how that works out. (Assuming that CSM5 doesn't implode and ragequit, no judgement. I certainly would have by now)
I appreciate it takes a lot of your time. It's a shame that time is effectively being wasted by a CCP that takes your ideas under advisement and files them under B. When they're talking to the CSM, which internal CCP budget do you think they book the hours to?
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On planets... nobody can see you macro mining... |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.06.19 15:28:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Mynxee on 19/06/2010 15:29:27
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
What can we do to give you what you need, in terms of information and research towards an informed presentation?
I'm not really sure, tbh. Here's the workflow that I follow. Yes, I love making flow charts! This one was hastily done to respond to this thread however, so it probably needs some refinement. (I would like to document other CSM processes this way, as an aid to help players understand what we do "behind the scenes" and future delegates work in consistent ways.)
The two research tasks involve considerable effort because finding information in forum and wiki formats that are inconsistently worded, not tagged with keywords, etc., is very tedious. We unfortunately lack of a good tool for tracking proposal status, assigning keywords, sorting/filtering by various criteria, etc. TeaDaze's CSM Database is a great tool that helps but is limited in scope and features (although I'm sure he intends to continually evolve it). And even with a tool, the discussions for proposals posted in AH is vital. But from the perspective of researching, aggregating, and managing the mountain of data contained both here and in the wiki, we're crippled. That's a whole other rant, though .
I suppose the best help players could give is to assist with the research for proposals they post or support and post relevant links to related threads or wiki pages. Some do this now, but as it involves :effort: and people are often unwilling to invest more than a minimal amount of it, I am unsure how to inspire folks to do more.
In my dream world, proposals are submitted, tracked, cross-linked, etc., in a CSM-managed database with a nice Web interface. I do have a vivid imagination, considering this is ONLY the year 2010. 
Life In Low Sec |
Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.06.19 19:29:00 -
[13]
I am not skeptical about the CSM. Rather, I am quite optimistic about it.
I think the idea is a good one. CCP has real incentives to make this work, including past troubles with trust and transparency, the growing possibility of direct competition, and the recognition that player insight can help them develop an even better cosmos. That CCP made the CSM a stakeholder in the development process not only speaks to these incentives, but speaks well of CCP.
Moreover, if we look at the work output and overall professionalism of the CSM itself, it is fair to say the CSM is doing its best. One may disagree with something or another, but that is not a reason to decide that the initiative will derail before it is barely out of the station. Lets not let perfection be the enemy of the good.
I also appreciate the transparency with which the CSM is conducting its business -- flowcharts, databases, wikis. I hope the notion of a CSM portal comes to fruition in the near future. Thanks to all of you (e.g. Mynxee, Teadaze, Ank) for your work on these tools.
Delilah
friendsofeve.wordpress.com
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2010.06.20 14:56:00 -
[14]
Fucking
Address
Book
Raise the damn issue I see nothing with as much support in assembly hall. And there is the issue with not letting them get away with removing features people like and use while adding crap no one gives a fuck about. Let the paying customer be heard.
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081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner
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eliminator2
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:28:00 -
[15]
i gave up on CSM since second one all i see is fail idea's from the public and when we get a good idea that is easy to implement and gets like 9 pages of supports it is tossed to side for a idea that sucks and got 1 support
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I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion.
I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.23 22:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: eliminator2
i gave up on CSM since second one all i see is fail idea's from the public and when we get a good idea that is easy to implement and gets like 9 pages of supports it is tossed to side for a idea that sucks and got 1 support
CSMs aren't computers, they're people, and usually busy people. If you see a thread that they've missed, bring it to their attention - "CSM Public" channel in game, or convo/mail them. Generally, pick the one you expect to be most likely to support the idea(ideally, one who has already given the thread a thumbs-up), and talk to them individually, instead of mass mailing, to save effort. Make sure it hasn't been previously raised, of course, but if it hasn't then that's your best bet. Don't expect them to know everything - the CSM's issue tracking tools currently consist solely of Evelopedia, so it's really easy for stuff to get missed.
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Killer Gandry
Caldari
TerraNovae
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Posted - 2010.07.01 14:28:00 -
[17]
I would like to express my gratitude towards all CSM members who sacrifice quit some of their game and free time towards helping to better the game.
Having been in a sortlike position in another direction I can tell it's a lot of work and a lot of times people don't realise that the return for those who do this work is negligeable or even none present.
A lot of times they get people telling them how it would have been better, but when looking at it those are always people who never step up to any responcebility when it comes to it.
I am going to say something blasphemous now, but I see the CSM contributing as much to EVE as Chribba. Each in it's own unique way.
I am sure a lot of people won't agree with the previous statement, but that is as I see it.
So yes, it's easy to say it's all going too slow or certain issues don't get handled, but when push comes to shove they are going for key issues.
Seeing the limitations which the CSM has to get it's workload done in I can only say I am pleasantly surprised.
Some leeway towards these players should be given.
Sincere,
KG
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:09:00 -
[18]
I was wondering if the CSM could clarify a few questions I have regarding the processes necessary to raise an Issue during a meeting.
1. How many support votes are necessary before an issue is "popular" enough to bring to the meeting?
2. Are votes really needed at all?
3. Once an issue is raised, but is turned down by the council majority, can that issue be reworked and be presented again? Is there a limit to how many times this can occur?
Bout it really.
_________________________________________
Support the "Seed Primae on the market or ORE LP Stores" proposal! Click here! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.01 16:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise
I was wondering if the CSM could clarify a few questions I have regarding the processes necessary to raise an Issue during a meeting.
1. How many support votes are necessary before an issue is "popular" enough to bring to the meeting?
2. Are votes really needed at all?
3. Once an issue is raised, but is turned down by the council majority, can that issue be reworked and be presented again? Is there a limit to how many times this can occur?
Bout it really.
1) That's up to the judgement of the individual CSM member.
2) Not needed per se, but they are a useful method of finding out what the community thinks on an issue.
3) In theory yes, but in practice no issue has ever been brought up more than twice.
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 07:54:00 -
[20]
When for the meeting minutes of the 6 and the 12 ?
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2010.07.08 09:00:00 -
[21]
Spreading out mission runners should link to
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Spreading_Out_Missionrunners_(CSM) in the OP.
And nice job not speaking of the moronically useless address book. What use is the CSM if not only they don't listen to suggestion to improve the game (we are used to that) but then can even get away with removing feature people use without being challenged...
--
081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner
blog |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Spreading out mission runners should link to
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Spreading_Out_Missionrunners_(CSM) in the OP.
And nice job not speaking of the moronically useless address book. What use is the CSM if not only they don't listen to suggestion to improve the game (we are used to that) but then can even get away with removing feature people use without being challenged...
Link fixed, thanks.
Also, the request for contact folders was requested at the Summit (which the Minutes should show, whenever they get released). I am also going to raise the issue at Saturday's CSM meeting (as previously promised).
Life In Low Sec |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.08 16:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mynxee
Edited by: Mynxee on 08/07/2010 14:15:15
Edited by: Mynxee on 12/06/2010 16:35:52
CSM5 Meeting 003 will take place Saturday 12 June 2010 at 17:00 EVE time. All CSM5 Delegates and Alternates are invited to attend. TIME WAS DELAYED 30 MINS FROM ORIGINAL OF 16:30 DUE TO LACK OF QUORUM PRESENT.
Note to Community: We are piloting a 2nd Saturday/4th Sunday meeting schedule through July. There will be no meeting on 27 June due to the Summit in Iceland on 23-25 June.
=============================
Working Agenda
A. Introduction
B. Issues (submission deadline 10 June 2010)
- (Ankhesentapemkah) Issue: Fix Factional Warfare* wiki
- (Ankhesentapemkah) Issue: Dynamic Missions* wiki
- (Ankhesentapemkah) Issue: Spreading Out Mission Runners* wiki
- (Ankhesentapemkah) Issue: Commit to Fixing the UI* wiki
- (Mynxee) Proposal: Colour Stars By: Systems I Can Jump To wiki
- (Mynxee) Proposal: Targeting from Broadcast History wiki
[*](Trebor Daehdoow) Proposal: Improve Overload User Interfacewiki
C. Summit Agenda & Planning
D. Other Business
*Carried over from Meeting #1 due to time constraints.
=============================
Incidentally although the first four proposals are by a member who is no longer with you, I believe that they are still very relevant and very good proposals. I trust you still intend to give them your full attention?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.08 18:58:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Malcanis
Incidentally although the first four proposals are by a member who is no longer with you, I believe that they are still very relevant and very good proposals. I trust you still intend to give them your full attention?
Not to worry :) Ankh's proposals will be treated just like any others in accordance with whether they were passed or failed by the CSM in that meeting.
Life In Low Sec |
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