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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.06.18 03:53:00 -
[31]
While this sounds all nice and great, I still don't see your point. You want to increase the amount of isk gained from mission running (and ratting belts as well I assume..?) to increase the "isk flow" of the economy, while at the same time you want to make macros obsolete by making it slightly harder to mine (you know this would just inflate prices right?).
I guess my question is: why? There isn't a shortage of isk by far (massive isk sinks were just removed from the game) and yet you want to increase the amount of isk going into the economy for some reason (I can't seem to pinpoint any definite reasons for this aside from you wanting to make easier isk).
How is Eve hurting exactly? And why will increasing how much isk you make help it in any way? How will making mining mildly more difficult help Eve in any way (I'm all for removing macros, but...)?
Overall it seems like you're trying to buff mission running, buff active mining, and nerf pvpers. Suddenly you're making more isk, miners are making a lot more (less macros means less minerals, higher prices), and pvpers are left wondering why the ravens back up at 150m isk again.
I just don't see why you think there is an issue to begin with.
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Vasaczk
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Posted - 2010.06.18 04:31:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Vasaczk on 18/06/2010 04:32:55
EvE economy is what I like to call a Regulated Open Loop; with more than one source (and more than one kind of source) and more than one kind of sink (and more than one type of sink).
You are analyzing the economy in terms of ISK, however this is not a good way to look at it since CCP don't aim for ISK in =/= Isk out.
The real equation that CCP are aiming for when they make economy balancing changes (such as nerfs to drop etc) is Value in = Value out. This is what keep inflation @ 0%.
Value includes ISK and products from universe harvesting (mining, PI etc).
Both value types can be created, destroyed and both can be exchanged for one another.
If you are limiting yourself to only ISK flow then you are essentially missing a significant portion of the Economy, and are going to be incorrect in your economy balancing suggestions since it does not include the full picture.
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Prototype ZX
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Posted - 2010.06.18 05:34:00 -
[33]
Yeah I would like some easier ISK :). Who doesn't? I've recently realized how much time I've actually spent making ISK. Now with my game time basically cut in half I'm having a hard time funding many different functions that I liked to do previously. I can go into trading, marketing, or even mining. That in itself is already flooded and potentially way to easy to get into. I decided to do it on a whim and made 500m to 1B in profit in about a 2 to 3 day period from just trading. Was really easy at first since all I needed was the capital to produce said orders, also like I said previously I ruined the market for an item that was a very great importance to me lol. At that time and currently still I don't have the knowledge on how to play the market without ruining it. I can make the ISK but I ruin the future potential of using said product. Same thing with mining and manufacturing. I found locations that worked to mine in relative piece but unless your dual boxing or have someone helping its just too tedious. Manfacturing and Trading was a market war lol.
I did no however see the value of already purchased items in the economy. I'll have to re-run my numbers. If someone is sitting on a stockpile of resources, ships, and equipment then they have a means of making ISK. The main concern of mine is that when ISK isn't created then what is being circulated is just that. Eventually there wouldn't be a circulation and people would have to do what they did back in the olden days and trade space cows and exotic dancers. (does it make me a bad person when I space exotic dancers hoping to here them scream?? hehe)
What I'm reading a lot of is how PvP'ers and pirates want more combat and want people to be pushed into low sec and 0.0. Only problem with that is that the game has progressed incredibly already. A couple of years ago a pilot could make a corp and alliance and not be behind the arms race. I'm seeing killboards of 20 to 30 titans fleet battles and carriers. We all know that to be able to do combat you need only a couple of months of training. 3 to 4 and you can hold your own on the line. That isn't the case anymore.
I was never a fan of mission runners just sitting there and people getting concorded. Technically Concord is the police? How do the police know something happened in a pocket of space they don't have a location to?? When I was writing up the T2 missions I was thinking of setting a time-limit. Missions runners are technically mercenaries for hire going into the "mobs" territory. Police don't go there. So what if there was a time limit? That the rats paid concord off to not aid the pilot in the pocket? The higher the ISK the less time you have, giving potential pirates and ninja's time to kill you without concord or sec status hit. *probably a hit for podding, too many people would cry even though I know every pirates eyes just went CHA-CHING* Now what stops the pilot from just giving up on the mission when the time runs out? Well then thats it. They have one downtime to take it out. If its not accomplished they lose a significant amount of standing. So you pick the time limit which will have ISK values. This will also allow players to set traps for other players. Take the mission, leave it open and just set up shop until you find a ninja or pirate who decided to get too greedy :).
About the mining. Honestly. I think mining is easier to get into the mission running. You just train thats it. So making a small added necessity doesn't sound bad to me. Again I've already mentioned about the macro program. This would help significantly in stalling macros.
Trading and marketing is harder to do without screwing over too many things. Still thinking on it. I'm willing to take ideas also. The more information I have better ideas and understandings I will have on the situations at hand. I probably still forgot to answer some of the questions asked. I apologize. Mind is everywhere.
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Prototype ZX
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Posted - 2010.06.18 06:50:00 -
[34]
Mining Ideas-
Macro program is set to where each individual command has to be inputted and saved. Repeated enough times to cover the whole range of the belt. Since belts respawn and are kept in the same place day in and day out. Macro's might only have to change out the commands weekly if that. Making all belts having to be scanned gravametric sites, forces macro's to re-issues commands daily and frequently. Sites should be kept small but large. This way if a macro does take the time to issue commands, if someone else finds the belt they can clean it out before the macro does. In case no one finds the belt, well the macro doesn't make that much. Do new belts at different locations take the place of previous belts? I want to say yes to give miners a good supply of ore. I need to say no because of the inflation of ore that might or might not take place. If macro's are stalled then it might just balance itself out. We could make a compromise and determine that only certain roids will keep respawning in different locations while others do not. I would like everyone's input on this.
Now the con of my idea.
(1)First a foremost which I knew someone would mention was why make mining even though its only a minor inconvenience harder? I have nothing to say to that remark except for the fact that this will undoubtedly stall macro's. Maybe even decrease their numbers. So in the end this would add to training time for miners. How much that would determined on the belt. Better asteroid quality and size would require stronger signal strength.
(2)Might have to rescan more and more belts when one is cleaned making it another tedious task.
(3)This is a con for pilots more so then miners'. When running away in low-sec you have less locations to warp to now then previously. Making it easier to get caught by pirates.
Now for some pros
(1) Biggest one is the inconvenience made for macro's. Again stalling them or completely making a few give up on it.
(2) If belts keep respawning but in different locations then the people who log in later in the day will have a chance to use their profession.
(3) Since because of *pro* number one, the market is free for actually miners and the market won't be flooded with minerals. More so then it already is.
Which belts will have the higher quality ore? How much training in probing will be required to find set asteroid belt? How often do those respawn? I have idea's but still working on balancing issues.
Now I know some of you are thinking why should miners have to scan? Well think about it. Why should the miner scan? He doesn't really have to. He can get a corpmate or pay someone to find the sites for him. Another reason for market being flooded by minerals is because again every single profession can be done on your own. You don't need anyone's help to accomplish it. Wait I stand corrected. Manufacturing.....no....actually if you have enough alts and Pos' in safety then your alright. With that many people doing a profession because its so easy creates a flood and the true miners are drowned out.
I don't want to force miners to pick up more training time, but again they can get a corpmate or pay someone. You want macro's to be removed from the game but there isn't a real way to do it without changing game mechanics. CCP really has no way of knowing who is and who isn't a macro in a hulk. The amount of work needed is too high. So the mechanic itself needs to be changed to hurt them more then the actually pilot. I don't want someone to spend more then even a day of training for probes for the cheap ore like veld and like, but it might end up being a day or 2 worth of training. This is by far the best idea I have come up with. If anyone knows something better I would gladly like to discuss it. That's it for now. Must sleep for work. Read it over and please give me your feed back. I'll try to write something for manufacturing tomorrow after work.
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Aurum Bellator
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Posted - 2010.06.18 13:24:00 -
[35]
^^ TL;DR . . . at least you admit your goal here in creating this thread is to buff your chosen method of earning income.
BLUF: even assuming there *is* a currency flow problem, that doesn't mean 'buffing' the highest income 'grazer' profession is the answer.
AUB
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.06.18 16:16:00 -
[36]
 Originally by: Prototype ZX
Can someone help me? I want to get into this thread but I can't find my way around this giant wall of text. Is there a gate or something I can use to go through it? I'm lost out here on the other side of the thread  .
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Dureena Nafee1
Amarr
Rookies Academy
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Posted - 2010.06.18 16:54:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Prototype ZX
I know the idea of making all belts grav sites sounds bad. It isn't hard to accomplish though. Just have to make it easy to scan out. What I'm trying to force people to do is to make it to where macroing is more time consuming then orginally. I explained in my first post how macro programs work. It's actually a lot of work to set up. Not hard just tedious. Having to do that once a week for free ISK isn't that bad of a deal. However, lets say the person has to set it up daily? You could get rid of a good amount of macro miners just by the fact that some could just be lazy.
i suggested that what they need to do is make it that after anyone has been in space for say more than 2 hours they can be attacked with no response from concord.
This would mean that all you have to do is redock and undock to gain concord protection again, but most macros work with orcas and sit all day in a belt.
this would mean that you could get baddies in belts doing PVP in high sec and totally destroy macro miners (or severely reduce their income if they are docking up every 2 hours in their orca's
Another nice way to train up newbs in PVP and generate more isk flow would be to have areas in highsec in systems that are classed as nullsec areas so you could in a system warp to the "Ship Proving Ground" if you want to try out stuff without being podded by CONCORD cause you shot your mate who was not in your corp...
Dureena - Training to Lose 1 skill at a time. |
Redpoppy
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Posted - 2010.06.18 22:23:00 -
[38]
I've found that trading is really lame(overcrowded). Missions are pretty lame especially regarding standings. Mining is lame. Industry/Invention (probably unless you're using it in 0.0 where somebody might need it) is likely overcrowded.
I'm just buying a bunch of plexes now. Enough trying to grind this game, unless it's for essential standings only.
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Joe Censored
Unknown-Entity
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.18 22:25:00 -
[39]
If you think ratting and missioning are the only ways to make isk, you are just doing Eve wrong.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.06.18 22:38:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Prototype ZX
Getting ISK from WH isn't generated, you take the product from there and sell it in high sec.
You are forgetting sleeper components. They generate a lot of ISK. Check trade goods, sleeper components. Sleepers do not have bounties, they drop those things instead.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Yavanna Akallabeth
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Posted - 2010.06.19 01:07:00 -
[41]
Originally by: PinkFish
Originally by: Prototype ZX
Can someone help me? I want to get into this thread but I can't find my way around this giant wall of text. Is there a gate or something I can use to go through it? I'm lost out here on the other side of the thread .
An grade 10 education would help
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Prototype ZX
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Posted - 2010.06.19 01:31:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Prototype ZX on 19/06/2010 01:32:42
Alright for the LAST time because some people aren't getting it.
Mission Running and Ratting are the only 2 ways to generate ISK that was not there previously. As in the ISK is generated by the game and given to you. Lets say we total the amount of ISK in the current game right now. Add up all the ISK every single player in the game has. Now give all of that to a single player and that player deletes his account. There no more isk in the game. Manfacturing, trading, mining. They do not create ISK. The only way to get said ISK back is from mission running and ratting.
All other professions, selling, trading, manufacturing. This is where ISK is traded between players. No new ISK is being generated into the economy.
So again I will re-instate so that its clear. Generating ISK from nothing. Only 2 ways (if you count insurance that is also a way but you need ISK to do that) Mission running and ratting. Mission running and ratting. Mission running and ratting, mission running and ratting.
Sorry for being a jerk. Long day at work, tired as hell, and I learn everyday when I work the world is filled with morons.
*Edit* didn't read the one of the responses. You said that sleeper components can be sold to NPC's. If so then yes. But what is killing sleepers in WH?? That is just another form of *ratting*. Just with a new fancier name.
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Induc
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.19 02:25:00 -
[43]
I don't really get the point. What are you trying to understand/explain/achieve? Why are you so worried about the isk supply?
I'm just trying to understand 
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.06.19 02:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Yuki Kulotsuki on 19/06/2010 02:33:58
Originally by: Prototype ZX
Words
Insurance is a ship to isk conversion. Isk out of nowhere from NPCs.
You need investment capital but so does everything else. If you're really hardcore about it you could mine and build a ship yourself and not pay for insurance and get the default payment.
Originally by: CCP Lemur
THIS IS GOD: ...
IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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Charlemagne
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Posted - 2010.06.19 11:02:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
your point is a bit obfuscated but it's really irrelevant. As long as the net isk flow roughly matches the net material flow things are fine.
His point is that he wants his chosen isk grind buffed, as he admitted above. Other than that, he has no point.
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Raimus Kallenden
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Posted - 2010.06.20 02:17:00 -
[46]
What OP fails to realize is this: isk is a method of valuing goods. It is an aid to trade between players and nothing more. Isk is also fluid. Its value changes over time depending on conditions in the economy.
If more isk was being generated by the game (if bounties and mission rewards are increased, as you insist these are the only ways isk is created), than people would have more isk to play with. This across the board increase in overall wealth, from the newest players to the oldest, would mean that people would have more buying power. The market would react to this by increasing the price of goods. In other words, isk would be worth less than before. It is a basic law of markets: scarcity creates value, and abundance takes value away. The more of something there is, the less it is worth.
Why do you insist this a good thing? If it only happened to one person (you, presumably), than it would be a pretty good thing. Wouldn't be nice for the rest of us, but who cares, right? I wish that I had a magic wand I could wave that made my missions clear a good couple million more in bounties than any other player. However, that ain't gonna happen.
I feel for you that your missions are now worth less isk than before. I'm sorry that you feel that trade isn't a viable option for you, for whatever reason. I am also disappointed that you feel industry isn't profitable. Perhaps you should just stop playing?
Or, what you could do instead of whining, would be to thoroughly peruse this forum's resources and participate in the discussions here. Even though you may feel you have a handle on things, you (like most of us in this game, myself included) have a lot to learn. Do the same on the science and industry forum. There is much isk to be made (not created, traded, mind) and you could be making it.
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Ninja Johnny
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Posted - 2010.06.20 06:21:00 -
[47]
This guys is crying over nothing. He is a mission runner. He's already at max income for little risk. He doesn't even get the basics of supply and demand. If mining is made harder there will be less supply. The cost of the suply will increase. He will need to do more missions for the same amount of items bought.
So he then has the arguement that mission runners will need more isk. Bigger supply of isk for same items makes the prices go up again. A zero sum gain even for this mission runner.
If he is saying he wants more stuff on the market and better prices for the miners the only way is remove compition from macro miners and to make either more ore per hour for each miner that is not macro mining go up or make the cost of the ore needed in the blue prints go down.
Now everyone has every faction ship with max fittings and they all go leave to play another mmo just like the left wow because it got way to easy. That and we all log in less since we don't need to work for anything until we figure the real money spent on game is not worth the 1-2 days a month. Also plex will just go away as a new player can just buy everything they want while still on trial.
Notice that ccp have a way of going about this. It is try to make people be online for an average of so many hours a month so they can keep there isk flow up with the training skills. Having just enough hours a month makes you feel like the game is worth paying for and you will end up paying again.
So in short the game is the way it is because of the dollars and euros not the isk. CCP wants your money!
Also you can make new isk show up in game by doing npc hauling/trading. Just like bounties/rewards. You will find these items under trade goods on the market with npc sellers and buyers and a gap of isk profit. We don't need mission runners, everyone just start hauling a lot more, which will cause more pvp to attack the traders, which will in turn cause more demand on products. Then the miners can make more isk for themselves. Hell if anything the mission runners are messing up the game.
I don't suck at this game! It's the games fault! Change the game to work around me! I like ranting! Can you tell?
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Esa Dahli
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Posted - 2010.06.21 07:40:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Esa Dahli on 21/06/2010 07:40:41
Seriously though, the economy is artificial up to a certain point. I don't know the numbers -which would be incredibly interesting- but does the mining/manufacturing/consumption chain account for the larger portion of the value/isk flow of the economy?
Consider the following: massive amounts of ISK is generated from nothing: missions. Agents spawn ISK Tn masse like there is no tomorrow. To a lesser degree insurance as well as ratting for bounties contributes to this flow. The only way ISK doesn't inflate like crazy because of this is that status quo is maintained by PVP mostly, blowing up ships Tn masse. Insurance counters this a little bit, but there goes way more into ships than insurance covers. It's the only way value flows out of the game (well and inactive accounts perhaps).
Now the artificial part is that missions reward and rat bounty are fixed amounts, at least for illustrative purposes in this discussion. Somehow agents have an unlimited cash flow from which to pay for missions and bounty. What if this was connected to a real empire income. What if a chain was made up to cover the agent's budget, from income its corporation, station and empire make up? What if the income was connected to the pvp ships being blown up? Then you would have a real market bounty and mission pay. Mining and manufacturing would benefit from this because now the entire NPC empire depends on it. I wonder.
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Prototype ZX
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Posted - 2010.06.21 15:21:00 -
[49]
I try to make an actual discussion on everything, but I admit that I want more money and now every a whole bunch of people call me crying and whining. *sigh*. Trading/hauling between NPC stations is made possible by either ISK made by mission running or ratting and finding the product to sell. The whole entirety of the game has ISK because of mission runners. They started the EvE economy.
Now I'm not only trying to fix mission running. I want to help fix all professions. Make them more centralized so that the market is over flooded by people who just use an alt to do everything. My only goal isn't trying to buff mission running so I can make money. I did the other professions and Market trading gives the most ISK. I could make billions from it. It really is that simple. Then my ISK problem would be fixed. So its not that I don't know how to make ISK. People also leave the game not because they got their navy ship "oh its so easy" no because it takes too long. You get a ship, take it out get it blown up and there you go. Insurance pays for it but you still lost isk because of your fittings. You guys want more PvP. You want more ships blown up. Give people the means to make ISK.
Now that idea about having the NPC corporation having a set ISK amount to give to mission runners. Thats pretty good. How to work that over would be hard to do. If you could give some more information that would be helpful.
I also think the main reason people get so angry over mission runners isn't the fact that the ISK is easy to make. I think because the capital that corporations and alliance could make would essentially push other pirate corps out of low sec. That's how it use to be couple of years back before the L4 mission nerf. People would earn everything they need and go into low sec or 0.0 and establish themselves. However the ones that were already in low sec that have destroyed their security status had no way to make ISK. So when you died and lost your ship you were basically through. The prices back in those days weren't insane either. Even though we made anywhere from twice to three times as much now, the prices for ships and modules weren't all that bigger compared to what was being made.
Please believe that I'm not trying to fix "just" mission running. I've already stated I've done all professions. I have been doing the numbers and with the recent nerf to L4 mission loot, there isn't a way to make any ISK. You suggest mining, manufacturing and such. Why force someone who wants to do combat into trade professions for training? You suggest that, but call my idea to fix mining flawed because it causes people to have to spend 2 to 5 extra minutes scanning something out? It negates macro miners completely. My idea removes macro miners. They would have to re-save their commands regularly on a daily basis. With absolutely no loss to the miner except a small amount of training time and scan time. Thats it. Well going to work. Type up my idea for manufacturing laters.
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Aurum Bellator
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.21 16:55:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Prototype ZX
The whole entirety of the game has ISK because of mission runners. They started the EvE economy.
Oh wait, I'm sorry . . . I forgot that Eve Online (released May 2003) didn't have an economy before December 2005 (Castor) which is when they added agent missions.
My bad.
AUB
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Raimus Kallenden
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Posted - 2010.06.22 15:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Prototype ZX
Market trading gives the most ISK. I could make billions from it. It really is that simple
Originally by: Prototype ZX
with the recent nerf to L4 mission loot, there isn't a way to make any ISK.
Is anyone else here having as much fun as I am?
Listen dude. We've already established (multiple times, in fact) that mission loot doesn't 'generate' isk. In fact, up until now, the basis of your argument was that mission bounties needed to be increased because somehow more market-related win will be had this way. I can only assume that this is based on your mistaken notion that the mission loot nerf was in fact a mission bounty nerf.
So now that all of your arguments have been carefully and (more or less) respectfully dismantled, you have concluded that the game doesn't present any cogent means for combat pilots to make money. This is just plain false. Missions still make you isk! They really really do! Trust me! I run missions too, and they are still quite good at giving you money!
I don't get it.
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