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TK634
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:13:00 -
[1]
I started my character in 2005 with the aim of becoming the fastest courier in space. That was all I wanted. Not to be the toughest or the richest or the most feared. Just the fastest courier in space.
And I did that. And then I got out into nullsec and speed wasn't enough, so I learned to fly every cloaked ship the Minmatar make; because Minmatar ships are fastest and I needed to get my cargo around intact.
I've seen a lot of scams and a lot of traps but there is a market for couriers in EvE provided you're not fussy about your employer or your cargo contents. Most contracts, I wouldn't touch. Here, I'll show you how to create a contract that a reliable courier will consider.
1. Security. "It's need to know, and you don't need to know".
I never want to know the exact details of the cargo. If it's contraband, I need to know where it's contraband but that's all. I do not need to know the value. I do not want to know the value.
Put it in a secure container of the appropriate size. Tell me if it's possible that it will be siezed in Empire or in applicable regions. Tell me the volume of the container. That's it. That's all I want to know about the contents.
2. Pricing. "Babe, I don't get out of bed for less than a million".
Being a courier does not make you ignorant or a fool. If I run ordinary T3 missions in my HAC, I can make 4mill per hour with little risk. Being a courier is a lot more risk so you need to make that worth my while.
In general, 1mill/jump is a fair reward although this can and should rise in particularly war-torn areas. Sure, you lose your cargo but I lose my ship, my cloak, my shielding, my modules, the works.
I am risking more than you, most likely. Don't forget that.
3. Collateral. "Don't **** on my head and tell me it's raining".
It's fair for collateral to equal the reward. If the collateral substantially outweighs the reward, the whole contract is screaming "set-up" and I won't touch it. I don't care what the cargo is and remember, you should have stashed it in a secure container anyway so there's no risk of me stealing it.
If you're asking 100mill in collateral for a job you'd only pay 10mill for, you're taking me for a fool. Haul your own stuff.
And that's pretty much it - three simple rules. If you're prepared to be realistic about things, a decent courier will always be available to you. If you're not then good luck in pwning noobs and equally good luck when the time comes that you need a courier's services for yourself and for real.
Over and out.
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The Eternal Courier |
Corcyrus Endymion
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:28:00 -
[2]
1/10 For trying.
A) 1m per jump? Even in wartorn 0 sec I wouldn't cough that up. B) You want over 10% of collateral? Don't make me laugh. I pay .5% or less and still have my goods transported save, sound and quick.
:(
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Induc
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:32:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Induc on 16/06/2010 19:32:12
Originally by: TK634 If you're asking 100mill in collateral for a job you'd only pay 10mill for, you're taking me for a fool. Haul your own stuff.
And how are you supposed to get any contracts when there are people who'll accept contracts at 500m collateral with a 1m reward? :(
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:43:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 16/06/2010 19:43:08 I had 10 x 1 billion contracts moved 40 jumps for 20 mill reward per run and I still feel like I overpaid.
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TK634
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion 1/10 For trying.
A) 1m per jump? Even in wartorn 0 sec I wouldn't cough that up. B) You want over 10% of collateral? Don't make me laugh. I pay .5% or less and still have my goods transported save, sound and quick.
:(
A: Everything's negotiable. Usually it comes down to the number of pipes but I wanted to keep the post simple.
B: Good luck to you. 0.5% is usually a clear sign that you're going to get podded for 1 unit of Trit in a small secure container that you just paid 500mill for. It screams rip-off. Think about it logically for about 5 seconds and even you can see that.
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The Eternal Courier |
Karina Bellac
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: TK634 It's fair for collateral to equal the reward. If the collateral substantially outweighs the reward, the whole contract is screaming "set-up" and I won't touch it. I don't care what the cargo is and remember, you should have stashed it in a secure container anyway so there's no risk of me stealing it.
So if I want something worth 100mil couriered 1 jump, the reward should be 100mil?
So explain to me why I should pay you to haul that item when I could, for the same cost, just buy a second one.
And secure containers are anything but. Drop into hangar, right click, repackage. Hey presto, contents spill out into hangar.
Nice try though! |
TK634
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:04:00 -
[7]
Edited by: TK634 on 16/06/2010 20:05:40
Originally by: Karina Bellac
Originally by: TK634 It's fair for collateral to equal the reward. If the collateral substantially outweighs the reward, the whole contract is screaming "set-up" and I won't touch it. I don't care what the cargo is and remember, you should have stashed it in a secure container anyway so there's no risk of me stealing it.
So if I want something worth 100mil couriered 1 jump, the reward should be 100mil?
I find it unlikely that you would want that that, but...
Point1 - the value of the cargo is not relevant to the courier. It should be locked and unavailable to the courier in any case.
Look at it from the other side - suppose you want something worth 1ISK couriered for 1 jump and you ask me to pay 100mill to do it... as far as I'm concerned your example is identical because, and this is important, I should not know what the cargo is.
If a courier job is very easy, you don't need a courier - you'll do it yourself. If it's hard you may not. Ask yourself why it's hard. It's not about your cargo. It's about the pick-up and drop-off locations and the space in between.
Good point on the insecurity of containers, though. I have never done that but then I always deliver.
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The Eternal Courier |
Julian Koll
The Kollektive
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:14:00 -
[8]
boy, you have abolutely no, and i mean NO, idea what you are talking about.
good luck getting any customers with your delusional requirements.
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MeeMaw
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:22:00 -
[9]
A. you can't contract contraband B. putting cargo in a container is useless C. wtf is a t3 mission? D. every single contract ive ever seen had a bigger collateral than reward. if the reward were equal to the collateral, why not steal it anyway and save yourself the trip?
fail pirate troll is fail. nice try though. 4/10 |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Julian Koll boy, you have abolutely no, and i mean NO, idea what you are talking about.
good luck getting any customers with your delusional requirements.
this.
Also, why is this thread in MD? You are only trying to advertise your (abysmal) service offering.
You write as if you knew that the whole cluster has just been waiting for you to enter the courier business and is willing to accept any price to have the honor of you delivering their goods.
Let me tell you the following: when in the need for a courier most people on this forum would probably turn towards Red Frog. So before wasting your and our time on advertisements that only get you trolled (have a look at the posting history of Gabriel Rosencrantz to see how to insert a courier service ad at every possible occasion ;), review the offerings of Red Frog and come back once you can tell us why we should prefer your service.
Is it the abhorrent price? is it the missing track record? is it the lack of collateral? is it the unspecified (and unenforcable) delivery time?
What's your selling point when compared to competing offerings?
If you have no selling point, I would honestly advise you to sell your freighter asap and buy a decent mission boat instead.
(on a side note - iirc it's impossible to create courier contracts that contain contraband)
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TK634
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:43:00 -
[11]
I'm not offering anything - I have enough to do.
I posted this because I got an offer that was frankly as unbelievable as some of the nonsense you guys have come out with - a 100mill cargo for 1 jump, shyeahright - and I felt that it would have helped if he'd thought about both sides of the deal.
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The Eternal Courier |
MeeMaw
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: TK634
I'm not offering anything - I have enough to do.
I posted this because I got an offer that was frankly as unbelievable as some of the nonsense you guys have come out with - a 100mill cargo for 1 jump, shyeahright - and I felt that it would have helped if he'd thought about both sides of the deal.
what nonsense? your facts are wrong. |
Karina Bellac
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Posted - 2010.06.16 21:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: TK634 I posted this because I got an offer that was frankly as unbelievable as some of the nonsense you guys have come out with - a 100mill cargo for 1 jump, shyeahright - and I felt that it would have helped if he'd thought about both sides of the deal.
The contract collateral will reflect the value of the cargo. The reward will reflect the time needed and the route security. 100mil collateral with 1mil reward is entirely feasible, legitimate and not at all uncommon. Strangely enough, these contracts get accepted, moved and completed without a problem. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.06.16 21:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: TK634 1. Security. "It's need to know, and you don't need to know".
And you simply don't know. Originally by: TK634 2. Pricing. "Babe, I don't get out of bed for less than a million".
Shame no babe will get in bed with you for any price. Originally by: TK634 3. Collateral. "Don't **** on my head and tell me it's raining".
It ain't raining, I'm ****ing on your thread. Originally by: TK634 I started my character in 2005
You could not prove it to me. IMHO, there's been a whole lot of toon sales lately. Many of them with 4+ years of background but close to zero posting. You simply sound like some jenius who is trying to sound knowledgeable but doesn't know Jack. However I found the tone of the thread to be somewhat Bruce Campbell-ish. I give you something for that.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Dzil
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.16 21:22:00 -
[15]
This depends entirely on where you're going. Navigating through low/null sec, I could see a reward closer to collateral, securing the cargo, higher payout/jump. There's considerable risk that in spite of your best efforts, you could have an unlucky day and hit a jump sprung gate camp, your ISP could puke, etc.
However I will say that for anything purely highsec, which describes a decent chunk of the courier market, your prices are unrealistic in the face of the current market. Red Frog runs courier sized loads for only 350k/jump, any collateral up to a bil. Many private couriers supplement their high sec efforts. I consistently see my couriers closed out successfully in under a day for less than 1% reward on collateral, and about 100k/jump. There's little incentive to throw a contract up for more if it's consistently being accepted and completed at the current rates.
Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :) |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.06.16 21:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 16/06/2010 21:25:16
Originally by: Shar Tegral However I found the tone of the thread to be somewhat Bruce Campbell-ish.
sounds more like a Evangelista wannabe to me.
I doubt he will have much success with the MD nerds, but maybe we should refer him to the COSMOPEWLITAN...
(look it up on kugu if you're unsure what that is)
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Kaaii
Caldari Kaaii-Net Research Labs
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Posted - 2010.06.16 21:39:00 -
[17]
Use Red Frog for all your courier needs.
They are fair, reliable, and have a reputation of getting it done.
Just say'n
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Aurum Bellator
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Posted - 2010.06.16 21:39:00 -
[18]
this is the most entertaining thread in a long time. Wow, just wow.
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.06.17 00:31:00 -
[19]
Since I usually deal with mission hubs I don't even pay red frog rates. My last contract, completed within a day, was 1.2bil collateral 25 jumps for 750k isk.
Completed within a day.
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Khun SP
Paramite Factories
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Posted - 2010.06.17 03:32:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Khun SP on 17/06/2010 03:33:55
Originally by: PinkFish Since I usually deal with mission hubs I don't even pay red frog rates. My last contract, completed within a day, was 1.2bil collateral 25 jumps for 750k isk.
Completed within a day.
ROFL! Now this is slavery at its best...
@OP: your requirements are illogical.
Collateral should be cargo value or a little more. Because otherwise the hauler will fail the contract and sell the goods for profit.
Reward is strongly attached to time/effort/danger factors. Not the same 5 or 25 jumps. Or highsec, lowsec...
I don't see why many people set reward as a % of collateral. They are independent issues.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.06.17 05:51:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 17/06/2010 05:56:12 Q: Why are couriers willing to work for a pittance? A: because they are unorganized and short-sighted.
Imagine you are delivering courier contracts for a living. You log in and find a very juicy contract from Jita to Rens (luckily Cat will protect you in Rancer, so delivery is no problem). But the courier package only fills about a third of your cargohold. Since you are making the trip anyways, accepting additional courier contracts on the same route to fill your cargo can only increase your profit. So you accept every Jita->Rens contract you can find, no matter the terms, unless you either run out of ISK for collateral or your freighter's cargohold is finally filled. After all, you can only win doing this.
Congratulations, you have just ruined your own market.
The guy who created that well-paying contract will be ridiculed by his corpmates who got the very same service by you for a fraction of a cost. He won't make the same mistake again.
edit: Originally by: Khun SP I don't see why many people set reward as a % of collateral. They are independent issues.
The courier has to be compensated for the opportunity cost associated with having his capital tied up as collateral.
(that's the logical answer and I believe some creators of courier contracts do think along similar lines; I don't think most couriers really have high opportunity cost rgd use of capital)
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rufeno
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Posted - 2010.06.17 05:59:00 -
[22]
at least we know for sure the OP never tried to open a secured can inside a contract. :P
tk634, if you really were a courier, you wouldn't post stupid things like this.
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Dan Garvin
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Posted - 2010.06.17 06:28:00 -
[23]
I do about 100 courier contracts a month in high sec space. If I have to take out my large transport ship I wont do it for less than 1 mil per jump. This ship is so slow it can bore you to death! Any job under 35k m3 I can use my smaller transport ship and I will do a job for 500k per jump. I dont worry about collateral in high sec space because my ships are tanked and warp protected. I can usually get away before someone can get a 2nd shot at me.
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Tiberizzle
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Posted - 2010.06.17 07:14:00 -
[24]
Well, I hate to break it to you guys but at least in high sec Red Frog will run up to 1B in a freighter for 500k + 350k/jump.
Nobody is going to pay you three times that much (presumably with less collateral), unless they are mentally ******ed.
Usually these discussions tend more towards the conclusion that Red Frog is too high, with many anecdotes of contracts set for 200k/jump or lower being accepted.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2010.06.17 07:42:00 -
[25]
this thread have been read 512 times now, I remember when I had 512 MB of RAM on my 100Mhz Pentium 1!
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.06.17 07:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ji Sama this thread have been read 512 times now, I remember when I had 512 MB of RAM on my 100Mhz Pentium 1!
I remember BG telling me I would never need more than 640k.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2010.06.17 08:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Ji Sama this thread have been read 512 times now, I remember when I had 512 MB of RAM on my 100Mhz Pentium 1!
I remember BG telling me I would never need more than 640k.
ah ha, that was the good old DOS days ;)
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Aurum Bellator
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Posted - 2010.06.17 12:39:00 -
[28]
Okay now this is JUST A THOUGHT . . . . not a statement or a claim or any of that <dons MOPP-5 gear> . . . but it seems to me that most of the responses to this advertisement relate to high sec, or at least empire space courier contracts. Now, what if the OP is talking about 0.0 player controlled space courier contracts? Moving a heap of goods from Tenal to Curse, for example? Does that change things at all?
I mean, he did talk of cloaking devices, etc.
AUB
PS. I do think the OP got what he deserves for posting a blatant advert in the MD forum.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.06.17 13:04:00 -
[29]
I agree that the reward for most of the contracts is too low to bother - I could make more money by the time I even get to the origin point by, dunno, hisec mining? I generally don't bother unless the price is at least 10M total. But, as other posters said: supply/demand at work. You have ridiculous supply - all the newbs looking for iskies - but little demand - mostly either traders who cba to move their own stuff, or scammers who want your pod killed. Sadly, courriers are not utilized as much as they could - my reasoning is that if you are able to fork out a couple of misk and wait a couple of hours to get it done, you might as well haul it yourself.
However, the OP completely misses the point of collateral. This is not "paying for the courrier's trust". The collateral serves as an insurance to the issuer. I don't know whether you set your autopilot to shortest, taking you through a lowsec pipe. I don't know whether you get suicide ganked. I don't know whether you recycle the container by accident. I have no idea what happens to my cargo after I contract it to a stranger, and I definitely want to get its value back if something happens. Preferrably even more - taking into account costs related to getting all the items again. If I use courrier contracts (did so about three times so far), I set the collateral to about 120% of the items value. This way, I either get my stuff where I want it to be, or I at least make some ISK for my lost time. Again, this has nothing to do with trust or the courrier himself at all - this is a protection for the issuer.
I would even argue that just as you don't need to know about the cargo, you shouldn't care about the collateral. It only means anything when you fail to deliver the contract - and you are not planning to do that, right?
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PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.06.17 13:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 17/06/2010 05:56:12 Q: Why are couriers willing to work for a pittance? A: because they are unorganized and short-sighted.
Imagine you are delivering courier contracts for a living. You log in and find a very juicy contract from Jita to Rens (luckily Cat will protect you in Rancer, so delivery is no problem). But the courier package only fills about a third of your cargohold. Since you are making the trip anyways, accepting additional courier contracts on the same route to fill your cargo can only increase your profit. So you accept every Jita->Rens contract you can find, no matter the terms, unless you either run out of ISK for collateral or your freighter's cargohold is finally filled. After all, you can only win doing this.
Congratulations, you have just ruined your own market.
The guy who created that well-paying contract will be ridiculed by his corpmates who got the very same service by you for a fraction of a cost. He won't make the same mistake again.
edit: Originally by: Khun SP I don't see why many people set reward as a % of collateral. They are independent issues.
The courier has to be compensated for the opportunity cost associated with having his capital tied up as collateral.
(that's the logical answer and I believe some creators of courier contracts do think along similar lines; I don't think most couriers really have high opportunity cost rgd use of capital)
I don't understand why Couriers here think they are entitled to earn so much ISK for their effort. They chose an activity that, unless they do something completely idiotic, has minimal risk and practically no entry requirements. Millions of isk to justify flying half way across EVE seems reasonable to you, but 1 mil isk to fly there and back probably seems reasonable to a 3 week old pilot.
Additionally Couriers are competing with everyone doing hauling of any sort. It's not just dedicated Couriers that check contracts. Many pilots who haul for their own businesses will check contracts before they start off on a 2 hours freighter trip. Empty space is wasted opportunity. An extra 750k isk to do what you were already going to do is a fantastic value regardless of the number of jumps.
pff, wanting couriers to not accept contracts because they are not up to your standards. What would you say to a miner who thinks he can blame all the other miners for ruining his market?
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