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[Request for AT9 format change] - time between matches on finals day

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Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:44:00 - [1] Can you guys please change it so one doesn't have 3 matches spread over 3 weeks and then 4 matches on the final day (if you make it to finals). It's really really uncool only having 1-2 hours to prepare for your next match ;P I'm guessing that's why the finals match was so uninteresting - you can't really change it up or properly prepare for your next matches if you have no time to change implants / brainstorm counters etc Props to PL for being able to do it, Hydra obviously couldn't since they used the same setup several matches in a row, i'm sure hydra would never have brought it to finals again if they'd had time to think about it. Great job on the tourney this year tho, quite impressed with the commitment, preparation and ISK a lot of teams spent on it and the job CCP did. :emo tyrrax out until next time:
Zervun Amarr hirr	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:50:00 - [2] Considering Dystopia's main tactic was to run away. How much time do you really need to prepare?

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:51:00 - [3] 4 matches in 1 day is just what it takes to win. --

mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:52:00 - [4] everyone has to deal with the same junk so its fair, its just fine.
Deva Blackfire Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:52:00 - [5] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/06/2010 21:52:44 Considering MM main tactic was dying in a fire and you had 1 week i dunno if it would help you any bit. But for other teams - it would surely help a little. EDIT: also its evening here and i just ate my breakfast ;p
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Zervun Considering Dystopia's main tactic was to run away. How much time do you really need to prepare? Let me quickly check Morsus Mihi's performance on sunday ...
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Zervun Considering Dystopia's main tactic was to run away. How much time do you really need to prepare? It's lucky you didn't lose to our t1 cruisers on the first day of qualifying or you'd look like an idiot.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:59:00 - [8] Originally by: CCP Mindstar 4 matches in 1 day is just what it takes to win. Do you realize how much ISK that is in 5% implants if you want to change your setup at all between matches and still take it as seriously as PL ? ;P The current 4 matches in one day format is why the finals match was so ridiculously uninteresting this time, hydra didn't have time to change their setup to something that'd provide a decent match.. Yeah PL are amazing for being able to pull it off, good for them but it makes the tournament worse.
Zervun Amarr hirr	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:00:00 - [9] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Zervun Considering Dystopia's main tactic was to run away. How much time do you really need to prepare? Let me quickly check Morsus Mihi's performance on sunday ... True, true, RAWR have a truly awful track history at recent AT's. The only conditions that RAWR could gain any decent progress within an AT is to heavily outnumber the opposition, or lag the opposing team out for a few minutes at the start of each match. Basically recreate the conditions where we PVP in everyday. So using every other major alliance as the yard stick, yup, we suck in so many ways during ATs. Still does not temper my opinion that Dystopia made it further than they should of.
Strazdas Unstoppable	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk The current 4 matches in one day format is why the finals match was so ridiculously uninteresting this time, hydra didn't have time to change their setup to something that'd provide a decent match.. Yeah PL are amazing for being able to pull it off, good for them but it makes the tournament worse. considering hydra were first of semifinals nad pl were second, pl acutally had even less time to pull it off and yet they did.

Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:04:00 - [11] I think it's a matter of pre-preparing ships, implants and setups far before the tournament even starts and then only needing to pick and choose from what is available. Then again, I don't know what I'm talking about. -------- All I want is a better mankind.
Mr Rive Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:04:00 - [12] The only reason we can bring different setups is that we have the isk to be able to blow on multiple setups and fits and implants. TBH i dont think this is fair, especially to smaller alliances, can you not just split them over 2 days?
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Zervun Still does not temper my opinion that Dystopia made it further than they should of. They had some nice setups in the first days. rolling over an angel fit with caldari blaster boats was fun to watch. And on your list for MM winning you forgot dropping titans and motherships into gate fights. ;) But maybe you learned from this week ...
Leahcim Eclectic	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:10:00 - [14] I don't think the OP is saying it's more or less fair for any team in particular.....but that giving more time between matches would allow ALL the teams to be able to field a more competitive team therefore making the matches better... I don't know if it's true or not, but I think that's more in line with what the OP was saying.. Peace Out Irie Forever -L
Obyrith	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:11:00 - [15] Edited by: Obyrith on 20/06/2010 22:13:35 CCP could make this easier for everyone by banning all implants and having everyone play in free blank clones provided by the tournament system. All skill hardwirings do is make the tournament even more dependant on money than it is already while adding nothing to the tactics or the value of matches as entertainment. There's little consistency in allowing hardwiring that boosts one attribute while disallowing pirate implants that boost another.
Wraith Soulsark Amarr MOFO'S ANONYMOUS X-Non	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Obyrith Edited by: Obyrith on 20/06/2010 22:13:35 CCP could make this easier for everyone by banning all implants and having everyone play in free blank clones provided by the tournament system. I like that idea
Lucius Voltar Gallente RETRIBUTIONS.	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:21:00 - [17] Well to be fair your all in the same boat... You should have a few fits set up and ready to go whether it be on alt char's or other guys in the alliance on standby... as for counters... as you dont know what your opponent is going to bring (Unless your PL) you don't know a counter you have to guess, but that comes to research on your opponent as the tournament progresses. Hydra were unfortunate to of lost with a set up that did work, but that was the price they paid for bringing the same set up as did circle for bringing their freki set up again... If nobody has learnt from PL about keep changing it from match to match (even if alternating between 4 or 5 setups) and predicting what a alliance has used in the past... and can't keep up with the increasing pace... then they don't deserve to win. Props to those that made it into the tournament and got to the finals at whatever stage, but frankly if PL can do it everyone else can, no change required. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Can you guys please change it so one doesn't have 3 matches spread over 3 weeks and then 4 matches on the final day (if you make it to finals). It's really really uncool only having 1-2 hours to prepare for your next match ;P I'm guessing that's why the finals match was so uninteresting - you can't really change it up or properly prepare for your next matches if you have no time to change implants / brainstorm counters etc Props to PL for being able to do it, Hydra obviously couldn't since they used the same setup several matches in a row, i'm sure hydra would never have brought it to finals again if they'd had time to think about it. Great job on the tourney this year tho, quite impressed with the commitment, preparation and ISK a lot of teams spent on it and the job CCP did. :emo tyrrax out until next time: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell. The Divine Dominion
Gorjer Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:23:00 - [18] I like the super-stressful last day..
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:30:00 - [19] What makes you think everyone else can ? Not every group has 700 billion ISK just lying around in their executor's wallet ;P Sure majority of alliances have enough ISK/rich potential contributors to drop 10 billion ISK on every single match, but I don't think they should have to to be on an equal footing.. But what I hate most about the mere 1-2 hours between matches is not having time to really think, evaluate, plan.. Yeah no implants would make it somewhat easier, but it'd still suck for the vast majority of teams, lots of added stress, less varied setups and worse matches as a result.
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Props to PL for being able to do it, Hydra obviously couldn't since they used the same setup several matches in a row, i'm sure hydra would never have brought it to finals again if they'd had time to think about it. they said that they did consider bringing a different setup, but chose not to, so..

Lucius Voltar Gallente RETRIBUTIONS.	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:48:00 - [21] Yeah I don't think much of the no implants thing either... I mean purely on a flagship point of view, why use a faction battleship without the implants to back it up let alone the isk involved in some of those flagships. If I'm not mistaken though Tyrrax, if you take Hydra for example they haven't feilded vastly expensive ships thier last setup there are many pilots on TQ using those ships, perhaps thats why they fell short in the end because of the lack of ISK invested in them who knows... but I agree it doesn't have to be an equal footing... doesn't however mean its not an equal footing on the timing of these matches. It's not a game of chess after all so taking your time isn't viable as CCP is trying to do this as a broadcast for the majority of eve players not just those partaking, which also includes all the effort put in by the staff to get the tournament going for 3 consecutive weeks... a 4th which would be needed for more time would cost a far lot more. Theres basically 2 ways to compete... be unpredictable and hope that your fit (as good as it may be) is the right one for the job and nothing like what you've used previously... or you try to predict what your contenders are going to use and hope your right without been esentially bluffed. What happens, happens... I think it worked well... the stronger teams and/or fits won as far as they could until one won... don't get me wrong I'm no PL fan... but they deserved it every bit and had the same time as anyone else, same preperation (even though training was limited more so on the test server). It's just the way things go... and im babbling so It's time for me to go :) well played to all and better luck next year to those that didn't quite get there. ~LV~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell. The Divine Dominion
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:48:00 - [22] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 20/06/2010 22:56:04 maybe they were too cheap to rip their 5% implants out (plus not having any time to really think about/discuss what to field) or maybe they just didn't care since they were guaranteed 50 unique frigates anyway ;P should've been obvious to them how poor their chances of victory were using that strat the third time in a row against a team as good as PL anyways tldr it would've been a much more interesting match if they'd had more time Originally by: Lucius Voltar doesn't however mean its not an equal footing on the timing of these matches. Actually it does mean that, no time between matches makes for an extremely uneven footing if one team is hilariously wealthy and the other is on a budget, it'd take me about 7 matches to run out of liquid ISK if i spent 10 bil on each one, it'd take Shamis 70, this effects how much each of us is willing to spend to improve chances of victory.. As for CCP's reasons for it, i understand them I'm simply asking them to change the format in some way to make finals day less of a bi tch - f.i. you could change the qualifiers to single elimination, one loss and you're out, or you could have finals weekend start on friday instead of saturday, with advance notice competitors should be able to take a single workday off ;P (or quit their jobs like verone)
Lucius Voltar Gallente RETRIBUTIONS.	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:21:00 - [23] and props to verone for doing that btw, fully understand what he was talking about when he first mentioned it :) I see what your saying mate, just not sure what CCP can do... I mean if it was single elimination... you get one set up, one chance... if anyone in your team screws up or your fit is leaked your screwed... as some of todays finalists for example didn't make their first match. I don't know perhaps the qualifiers been restricted more on time... starting earlier.... flagships restricted to finals... BAN THE DRAKE (just for verone and CCP), perhaps heavier points on the ships known for tanking heavier as opposed to those that fill Ewar or pure damage, like the marauders tend to be. we'll have to see what claw comes up with next time. If you want shorter matches... just launch a bomb at claw... ops someone tried that :P ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell. The Divine Dominion
Elyseum	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Yeah PL are amazing for being able to pull it off, good for them but it makes the tournament worse. when are you going to stop pretending that you aren't a PL alt ?
Hans Jeschonnek	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Elyseum Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Yeah PL are amazing for being able to pull it off, good for them but it makes the tournament worse. when are you going to stop pretending that you aren't a PL alt ? When he can win a tournament.
Anonymous Player	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Lucius Voltar Well to be fair your all in the same boat... You should have a few fits set up and ready to go whether it be on alt char's or other guys in the alliance on standby... as for counters... as you dont know what your opponent is going to bring (Unless your PL) you don't know a counter you have to guess, but that comes to research on your opponent as the tournament progresses. Hydra were unfortunate to of lost with a set up that did work, but that was the price they paid for bringing the same set up as did circle for bringing their freki set up again... If nobody has learnt from PL about keep changing it from match to match (even if alternating between 4 or 5 setups) and predicting what a alliance has used in the past... and can't keep up with the increasing pace... then they don't deserve to win. Props to those that made it into the tournament and got to the finals at whatever stage, but frankly if PL can do it everyone else can, no change required. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Can you guys please change it so one doesn't have 3 matches spread over 3 weeks and then 4 matches on the final day (if you make it to finals). It's really really uncool only having 1-2 hours to prepare for your next match ;P I'm guessing that's why the finals match was so uninteresting - you can't really change it up or properly prepare for your next matches if you have no time to change implants / brainstorm counters etc Props to PL for being able to do it, Hydra obviously couldn't since they used the same setup several matches in a row, i'm sure hydra would never have brought it to finals again if they'd had time to think about it. Great job on the tourney this year tho, quite impressed with the commitment, preparation and ISK a lot of teams spent on it and the job CCP did. :emo tyrrax out until next time: Exactly...If HYDRA had used a different setup, then it would've been more fun. Seeing them use the exact same setup over and over is the boring part. As far as Co2, they really should have used the Frekis once, and then been done with them, or even once, then wait a match or two. Bringing them into three matches in a row was BEGGING for them to be shot.
Zofran	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:18:00 - [27] Edited by: Zofran on 21/06/2010 02:19:21 Agreed strongly. Obviously you cant have everything however, the result of this would be a requirement to start earlier and to have more 'filler' material, which at the moment is even lacking. I propose a few bits of filler that could work: +Run a simple compo to have your solo/fleet video from the MyEVE forum section played, set min/max times etc. +Update a few fanfest talks, since fanfest will be early next year and not that faaaar from the tourney I'm sure 2-3 devs could make a little update to their talk and film it beforehand without commentators etc, no heavy graphics work needed and material reuse is fine. +"Open Mic" with a section of alliance/tourney FC's able to answer some questions from both audience and potentially commentators/CCP(which would be nice tbh), could be pre-recorded. +Some terrible RP event using 'live' broadcasts etc and involving players currently logged in to do stuff (smallish area)... I donno... RPers urgh ;/ +Ask a few people if you can record their voice comms from the first weekend or get them submitted and then using edited footage and more use of strategic overlay(!!!) do some retrospective commentary... might be hard to find willing people, but would be something really nice. Would be perfect if you could get some grid recording system in place - or even something like old UO packet video, but I guess you're fighting entropy.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:32:00 - [28] Originally by: CCP Mindstar 4 matches in 1 day is just what it takes to win. Sounds more like ran out of time because another deadline is approaching. :P ----- results may vary
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:56:00 - [29] Good logistics is 50% of the tourney on the last day. I had 5 different teams to choose from for the last match. We chose the minmatar team because it beats all of hydra's setups. We had a flaghorn team ready to roll, but it would have only defeated the Myrmidons, and not the bombers.
Ambo I've Got Nothing	Posted - 2010.06.21 07:37:00 - [30] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Good logistics is 50% of the tourney on the last day. I had 5 different teams to choose from for the last match. We chose the minmatar team because it beats all of hydra's setups. We had a flaghorn team ready to roll, but it would have only defeated the Myrmidons, and not the bombers. This tbh. All experienced PvPers make a big deal about how in eve, you win the fight before it even starts. Clearly the tourney is the same. You have to do all the brain work before hand, all the practicing, have several setups ready to go, etc. Yes, this is expensive but it's what is needed to win. Increasing time between matches on the final day would not help with that imo. It all needs to be done well in advance. --------------------------------------

Lucius Voltar Gallente RETRIBUTIONS.	Posted - 2010.06.21 07:43:00 - [31] Originally by: Anonymous Player Exactly...If HYDRA had used a different setup, then it would've been more fun. Seeing them use the exact same setup over and over is the boring part. As far as Co2, they really should have used the Frekis once, and then been done with them, or even once, then wait a match or two. Bringing them into three matches in a row was BEGGING for them to be shot. I agree it would of been far more interesting, but as one of my friends who formally was in the tournament from KIA mentioned... you use a setup a couple of times and hope (rather stupidly) they won't think you will do it again. which isn't the case. But there is the side of going with what works too... Though personally I would of done what PL did which is change it up as much as possible. not for entertainment purposes, just for the unpredictability. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell. The Divine Dominion
Whiny McEmokid	Posted - 2010.06.21 07:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Zervun Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Zervun Considering Dystopia's main tactic was to run away. How much time do you really need to prepare? Let me quickly check Morsus Mihi's performance on sunday ... True, true, RAWR have a truly awful track history at recent AT's. The only conditions that RAWR could gain any decent progress within an AT is to heavily outnumber the opposition, or lag the opposing team out for a few minutes at the start of each match. Basically recreate the conditions where we PVP in everyday. So using every other major alliance as the yard stick, yup, we suck in so many ways during ATs. Still does not temper my opinion that Dystopia made it further than they should of. it's funny cuz it's true
Beyond Horizon Caldari Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2010.06.21 08:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Zervun Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Zervun Considering Dystopia's main tactic was to run away. How much time do you really need to prepare? Let me quickly check Morsus Mihi's performance on sunday ... True, true, RAWR have a truly awful track history at recent AT's. The only conditions that RAWR could gain any decent progress within an AT is to heavily outnumber the opposition, or lag the opposing team out for a few minutes at the start of each match. Basically recreate the conditions where we PVP in everyday. So using every other major alliance as the yard stick, yup, we suck in so many ways during ATs. Still does not temper my opinion that Dystopia made it further than they should of. I'll have to agree with you on this one, big relevant alliances, which hold space (bob would be the only exception, but i never bothered to watch any ally tourn before this one, so cant really comment) didnt do well on the tournament, rather the "ez" mode pvp alliances did a lot better, some of the alliances, i've never heard about, even reached finals.. so yeah, go figure :) - BH
Emennt Caldari SRBI Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.06.21 08:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Anonymous Player Originally by: Lucius Voltar Well to be fair your all in the same boat... You should have a few fits set up and ready to go whether it be on alt char's or other guys in the alliance on standby... as for counters... as you dont know what your opponent is going to bring (Unless your PL) you don't know a counter you have to guess, but that comes to research on your opponent as the tournament progresses. Hydra were unfortunate to of lost with a set up that did work, but that was the price they paid for bringing the same set up as did circle for bringing their freki set up again... If nobody has learnt from PL about keep changing it from match to match (even if alternating between 4 or 5 setups) and predicting what a alliance has used in the past... and can't keep up with the increasing pace... then they don't deserve to win. Props to those that made it into the tournament and got to the finals at whatever stage, but frankly if PL can do it everyone else can, no change required. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Can you guys please change it so one doesn't have 3 matches spread over 3 weeks and then 4 matches on the final day (if you make it to finals). It's really really uncool only having 1-2 hours to prepare for your next match ;P I'm guessing that's why the finals match was so uninteresting - you can't really change it up or properly prepare for your next matches if you have no time to change implants / brainstorm counters etc Props to PL for being able to do it, Hydra obviously couldn't since they used the same setup several matches in a row, i'm sure hydra would never have brought it to finals again if they'd had time to think about it. Great job on the tourney this year tho, quite impressed with the commitment, preparation and ISK a lot of teams spent on it and the job CCP did. :emo tyrrax out until next time: Exactly...If HYDRA had used a different setup, then it would've been more fun. Seeing them use the exact same setup over and over is the boring part. As far as Co2, they really should have used the Frekis once, and then been done with them, or even once, then wait a match or two. Bringing them into three matches in a row was BEGGING for them to be shot. i think we have different view on things, i know that majority of eve players look at freki as 30bil worth ship and something to show off, we looked at it as frig with nice web bonus that can fit in a lot of setups
Lucius Voltar Gallente RETRIBUTIONS.	Posted - 2010.06.21 08:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Emennt Exactly...If HYDRA had used a different setup, then it would've been more fun. Seeing them use the exact same setup over and over is the boring part. As far as Co2, they really should have used the Frekis once, and then been done with them, or even once, then wait a match or two. Bringing them into three matches in a row was BEGGING for them to be shot. i think we have different view on things, i know that majority of eve players look at freki as 30bil worth ship and something to show off, we looked at it as frig with nice web bonus that can fit in a lot of setups And you didn't use it once as a distraction? I'd find it hard to believe if you didn't as it certainly worked that way with RED overlord. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell. The Divine Dominion
Emennt Caldari SRBI Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.06.21 08:48:00 - [36] Originally by: Lucius Voltar Originally by: Emennt Exactly...If HYDRA had used a different setup, then it would've been more fun. Seeing them use the exact same setup over and over is the boring part. As far as Co2, they really should have used the Frekis once, and then been done with them, or even once, then wait a match or two. Bringing them into three matches in a row was BEGGING for them to be shot. i think we have different view on things, i know that majority of eve players look at freki as 30bil worth ship and something to show off, we looked at it as frig with nice web bonus that can fit in a lot of setups And you didn't use it once as a distraction? I'd find it hard to believe if you didn't as it certainly worked that way with RED overlord. not on purpose, yes we knew that it might draw a lot of fire just because of the price tag but we weren't teasing with frekis..they weren't orbiting at 40k from the closest enemy ship, they were in the middle of the fighting doing their job and we will bring them next year for sure it's a great tackle for 4 points
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2010.06.21 09:26:00 - [37] Note to Tyrrax: next tourney have spies & thieves ready in all alliances and rob them blind after a match so you can be sure they have the same set up, then counter that :D I'll take 2% as a moderate consultant fee ^^ All the above is prolly crap Drone Guide
csebal HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2010.06.21 10:51:00 - [38] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Can you guys please change it so one doesn't have 3 matches spread over 3 weeks and then 4 matches on the final day (if you make it to finals). Its pretty intense, yea. Then again, as Mindstar puts it so nicely: playing 4 matches on the final day is what it takes to win. As for counters.. do you seriously believe in those? Unless you know with a fairly high certainty what setup the enemy will bring in advance, you cant really come up with a counter. In 99% of the cases, you are better off bringing the best setup you've got. The current system is quite alright as it is imo. What i would love to see is a more regular, championship style event, where teams get to face eachother over a season and the best teams of a season get to play during a final weekend of elimination matches for the cup. It might seem to require way too much work, but as i see it, most of stuff related to such an event could be done automatically. An automated system to teleport teams to the arena, to verify setups / pilots for rules, to manage the start / end of the match, automated camera drones for broadcasting. You would not get commentary on these matches, unless ofc some volunteers step up to do over-the-tube style commentary. Oh well, i stop daydreaming now. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Phear the arrows of the HUNs >>---->
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.21 15:48:00 - [39] Of course I believe in counters, when you can guess with reasonable certainty what your opponent is bringing (f.i. when a team is stupid enough to bring the same setup 3 times in a row) you can adjust your ewar to fit their tactic, f.i. Hydra might've had a chance if they'd replaced their damps with tracking disruptors and maybe fit an ewar strength gang mod instead of ewar range.. It's a gamble since you can't ever be 100% certain of what your opponent will bring, but if you guess right you can often walk all over them. (this is what happened in the last tournament in our matches against goonswarm and solar fleet, and would've happened in our match against PL if we'd had any clue how to counter their bomber setup) you're right of course, in the current format you have to spend tons of ISK and do a lot of logistics beforehand if you want to have any chance on finals day, I just don't like the fact and think the format should be changed to slightly reduce the stress, pressure and ISK requirements. The richest people in EVE having won three times in a row isn't a coincidence, ISK is too much of an advantage, if that's the way CCP want it they should stop banning pirate implants. (yeah i know they also practised more than nearly anyone else have great FCs, skilled pvpers and generally took the tournament more seriously than anyone else f. off)
MissBolyai North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:25:00 - [40] You'd crap your pants if you saw the ammo bill for this tourney.

Pwnage Star	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:37:00 - [41] If you cant afford to destroy +5's and input new ones just to win the round you don't deserve 1 trillion. And the wine comes from player who is old and rich and already lost unique ships
csebal HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:37:00 - [42] Lets cut to the chase. We just dont agree. Have a nice day. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Phear the arrows of the HUNs >>---->
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:16:00 - [43] Originally by: csebal Lets cut to the chase. We just dont agree. Have a nice day. Maybe you'd feel differently if you'd actually made it to the finals weekend this time ? You're one person btw, referring to yourself as "we" makes you sound pretentious. Originally by: Pwnage Star If you cant afford to destroy +5's and input new ones just to win the round you don't deserve 1 trillion. And the wine comes from player who is old and rich and already lost unique ships Oh we can afford to, we just don't want to have to go to such silly measures to be competitive, let alone spend additional billions on 15% ammo for everyone. And if wealthy oldtimers like us feel this way imagine how the teams that aren't wealthy feel about the huge advantages afforded by something that isn't intended to be a major influencing factor (hence why pirate implants and t2 rigs aren't allowed) PS; it's spelled whine hth
Flinx Evenstar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:31:00 - [44] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 21/06/2010 20:35:26 Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Oh we can afford to, we just don't want to have to go to such silly measures to be competitive, let alone spend additional billions on 15% ammo for everyone. I'd like to point out that PL are a relatively poor alliance compared to some of the giants out there. Isk is not the deciding factor in these tourneys. I am quite pleased that the teams that reached the finals were the ones that spent a ridiculous amount of time planning and executing strategies, and countless hours on logistics. All that hard work came to fruition in the finals, and I cant see what is wrong with a tournament model that rewards effort. Hard work pays dividends kids, stay in school ;) (and just to reinforce the point about isk not being a factor and that underdogs with a good plan can prevail. There was this time when 10 thorax destroyed an unbeatable setup by the best alliance team at the time, which was also incredibly wealthy) --- Witness epic fleet battles in Dominion
Count MonteCarlo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:45:00 - [45] Edited by: Count MonteCarlo on 21/06/2010 20:49:30 The alliance that had the best experience, pvpers, FCs and most importantly dedication in time spent testing will and should allways win, ISK surely plays a role but I'm not sure if it played a massive role, 5% implants over 3% implants does not make that much difference we only had one "a setup" and 4 other B setups, PL had around 8 if not more, A setups, the dedication of their theory crafters and testers is the main thing that makes them stand out, this was the first AT for all of us apart from gob and atleast we didnt walk away empty handed, we'll be back next year and we'll try to follow PL's example Their dedication to winning is extreme, and metagaming had little to do with it, they only metagamed against hydra but I doubt it would have made much difference, they did apparently sell our setups to some of our oppositions in the finals, they had even told rote kapelle that we'd field the myrmidon team
ThrashPower Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.06.21 21:00:00 - [46] Well to everyone whining about the isk required, did you try to get sponsored ? The hydra team was sponsored with plexes by Fnatic. We also had several smaller private sponsors. We raised a eleven digit number of isk through our sponsors.
csebal HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2010.06.23 01:59:00 - [47] Edited by: csebal on 23/06/2010 01:59:28 Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Maybe you'd feel differently if you'd actually made it to the finals weekend this time ? You're one person btw, referring to yourself as "we" makes you sound pretentious. You realize, that i went through the final weekend 3 times already, right? AT4: rings a bell? If you "wealthy oldtimers" (talk about pretentious) do not feel like spending, then maybe the alliance tournament is just not for you. I'm sure there are plenty of poor newbies who are eager to put their creativity to the test putting all they have on the line, which is probably still a less than what you would consider mere change. You do not (necessarily) have to spend billions to be competitive. You just have to be good, creative and dedicated. (plus have some luck on the side) As for the we remark, try reading the sentence like this: we just dont agree (with eachother). Which still stands, by the way. Have a nice day. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Phear the arrows of the HUNs >>---->
Elendar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.23 21:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Originally by: csebal Lets cut to the chase. We just dont agree. Have a nice day. Maybe you'd feel differently if you'd actually made it to the finals weekend this time ? You're one person btw, referring to yourself as "we" makes you sound pretentious. Originally by: Pwnage Star If you cant afford to destroy +5's and input new ones just to win the round you don't deserve 1 trillion. And the wine comes from player who is old and rich and already lost unique ships Oh we can afford to, we just don't want to have to go to such silly measures to be competitive, let alone spend additional billions on 15% ammo for everyone. And if wealthy oldtimers like us feel this way imagine how the teams that aren't wealthy feel about the huge advantages afforded by something that isn't intended to be a major influencing factor (hence why pirate implants and t2 rigs aren't allowed) PS; it's spelled whine hth If you don't care enough to buy 5% implants when you are silly rich then why even enter the tourney in the first place. If pirate sets were allowed i could understand as they are too expensive (and effective) to be fair but 5%s? they only matter when its VERY close and we didn't have any matches where 5%s over 3%s would actually have mattered so i don't really see what the whine is about. Also this only applies to the last 16 who really ought to be taking the tourney seriously. I guess the question is do you think that if your team had all 5% implants fit you would have made it any further in the tournament?
cok cola Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.24 15:43:00 - [49] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Can you guys please change it so one doesn't have 3 matches spread over 3 weeks and then 4 matches on the final day (if you make it to finals). It's really really uncool only having 1-2 hours to prepare for your next match ;P I'm guessing that's why the finals match was so uninteresting - you can't really change it up or properly prepare for your next matches if you have no time to change implants / brainstorm counters etc Props to PL for being able to do it, Hydra obviously couldn't since they used the same setup several matches in a row, i'm sure hydra would never have brought it to finals again if they'd had time to think about it. Great job on the tourney this year tho, quite impressed with the commitment, preparation and ISK a lot of teams spent on it and the job CCP did. :emo tyrrax out until next time: quit being a whiney little baby. even if ccp did this change youd just end up ***ing next year because PL had more time for "metagaming" between the final few matches, suck it up and try harder next year. being able to adapt quickly during the finals is something a good alliance should be able to do. choosing the appropriate ships to bring to a fight, and the logistics needed to have these ready is obviously an important thing for an alliance to be somewhat good at. idk why everyone is ***ing about the final matches being "uninteresting" either, perhaps you would have been more interested if your team was in it.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.24 16:21:00 - [50] you found the finals match to be interesting ? seriously ? hydra might as well not have shown up as bring same setup third time in a row finals aside 5 matches in two days encourages the trend of teams excessively repeating the same setups (like co2 and hydra) and makes the tournament less interesting the farther into it one goes PS; you're an awful poster, try to be more like mr rive or raivi hth

cok cola Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.24 16:58:00 - [51] Edited by: cok cola on 24/06/2010 17:02:22 Edited by: cok cola on 24/06/2010 16:59:47 Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk you found the finals match to be interesting ? seriously ? hydra might as well not have shown up it went down as i expected it would afaik garmon was advising gobby to use a different setup and gave up arguing, im not sure an extra day for them to prep would have changed the outcome in any way. besides, raivi would have been watching them :P Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk try to be more like mr rive LOL
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.06.24 18:32:00 - [52] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Originally by: CCP Mindstar 4 matches in 1 day is just what it takes to win. Sounds more like ran out of time because another deadline is approaching. :P Moving the server sounds pretty much in line of my thesis. ----- results may vary


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