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Rebuttal to the post Playing the Devils Advocate

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Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:35:00 - [91] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 17/12/2004 02:59:50 Mmm, feeling smart are we Digi? Very insightful and well articulated reply to Destable's theories. It's pretty obvious to me that until one can actually own systems, i.e. keep everyone else out without an actual military presence, then nowhere is safe. POS or no, there's no way you can maintain a powerful enough presence in 0.0 sec to continue with isk-making operations unimpaired by the efforts of an organized and well prepared enemy like BoB. You have to drop everything to deal with the threat, and that kills both profitability of living there and morale (unless you're winning). Of course you can always relocate your iskmaking operations while dealing with the threat, but that doesn't get you very far, and the threat can always follow. http://eve.klaki.net/
Tyrrax Thorrk	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:35:00 - [92] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 17/12/2004 02:59:50 Mmm, feeling smart are we Digi? Very insightful and well articulated reply to Destable's theories. It's pretty obvious to me that until one can actually own systems, i.e. keep everyone else out without an actual military presence, then nowhere is safe. POS or no, there's no way you can maintain a powerful enough presence in 0.0 sec to continue with isk-making operations unimpaired by the efforts of an organized and well prepared enemy like BoB. You have to drop everything to deal with the threat, and that kills both profitability of living there and morale (unless you're winning). Of course you can always relocate your iskmaking operations while dealing with the threat, but that doesn't get you very far, and the threat can always follow. http://eve.klaki.net/
Cochise	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:45:00 - [93] An excellent post and a some good points and theory Destable.
Cochise	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:45:00 - [94] An excellent post and a some good points and theory Destable.
Specops	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:52:00 - [95] Edited by: Specops on 17/12/2004 02:53:18 Intresting read. If anything like this happened I would say it would happen only in the North. You guys up there are in to much turmoil :) So many alliances come and go up there. Even some alliances that don't claim regions but only constellations. Look at those alliance maps stickied in this forum. The north compared to the south is already changing hands a lot faster then the south. Look at the south on thos maps. Other then the CFS thing where CFS never even really controlled there territory fully we have had only 1 "alliance" fall and 1 new one made and no other change in territory control. Now look at the north. Just from 1 map to the next there are some drastic changes almost always. South is a lot more stable and I seriiously doubt this would happen any time soon if at all in the south :) My 2 cents. ~Specops~
Specops	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:52:00 - [96] Edited by: Specops on 17/12/2004 02:53:18 Intresting read. If anything like this happened I would say it would happen only in the North. You guys up there are in to much turmoil :) So many alliances come and go up there. Even some alliances that don't claim regions but only constellations. Look at those alliance maps stickied in this forum. The north compared to the south is already changing hands a lot faster then the south. Look at the south on thos maps. Other then the CFS thing where CFS never even really controlled there territory fully we have had only 1 "alliance" fall and 1 new one made and no other change in territory control. Now look at the north. Just from 1 map to the next there are some drastic changes almost always. South is a lot more stable and I seriiously doubt this would happen any time soon if at all in the south :) My 2 cents. ~Specops~
Specops	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:53:00 - [97] Edited by: Specops on 17/12/2004 02:52:50 opps double post ~Specops~
Specops	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:53:00 - [98] Edited by: Specops on 17/12/2004 02:52:50 opps double post ~Specops~
Crimson Tear	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:56:00 - [99] That PBL alliance looks new to me. Who are they anyway, I haven't seen any posts about them?
Crimson Tear	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:56:00 - [100] That PBL alliance looks new to me. Who are they anyway, I haven't seen any posts about them?
alynne	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:58:00 - [101] Originally by: Specops Edited by: Specops on 17/12/2004 02:53:18 Intresting read. If anything like this happened I would say it would happen only in the North. You guys up there are in to much turmoil :) So many alliances come and go up there. Even some alliances that don't claim regions but only constellations. Look at those alliance maps stickied in this forum. The north compared to the south is already changing hands a lot faster then the south. Look at the south on thos maps. Other then the CFS thing where CFS never even really controlled there territory fully we have had only 1 "alliance" fall and 1 new one made and no other change in territory control. Now look at the north. Just from 1 map to the next there are some drastic changes almost always. South is a lot more stable and I seriiously doubt this would happen any time soon if at all in the south :) My 2 cents. Yeah, it wouldn't happen.. but thats only because so few corps in the game actually use this approach. When choosing where on the map to invade, I think Molle played "pin the tail on the donkey" and got full points.. just so happened to be PA, and in the North. But rest assured, you'd be in some trouble if a similar group formed down South
alynne	Posted - 2004.12.17 02:58:00 - [102] Originally by: Specops Edited by: Specops on 17/12/2004 02:53:18 Intresting read. If anything like this happened I would say it would happen only in the North. You guys up there are in to much turmoil :) So many alliances come and go up there. Even some alliances that don't claim regions but only constellations. Look at those alliance maps stickied in this forum. The north compared to the south is already changing hands a lot faster then the south. Look at the south on thos maps. Other then the CFS thing where CFS never even really controlled there territory fully we have had only 1 "alliance" fall and 1 new one made and no other change in territory control. Now look at the north. Just from 1 map to the next there are some drastic changes almost always. South is a lot more stable and I seriiously doubt this would happen any time soon if at all in the south :) My 2 cents. Yeah, it wouldn't happen.. but thats only because so few corps in the game actually use this approach. When choosing where on the map to invade, I think Molle played "pin the tail on the donkey" and got full points.. just so happened to be PA, and in the North. But rest assured, you'd be in some trouble if a similar group formed down South
Selim	Posted - 2004.12.17 03:05:00 - [103] Outstanding post, DC. I'll add that induvidual corps looking out for their own profits and staking a claim in the great 0.0 wastelands and building it up into something great for themselves is what should happen. Alliances go against that completely. Alliances are communist to the core. Induvidualism is the first step to true economic independence. If alliances did not exist, corporations would quite well be better off induvidually since they are really looking out for themselves and their own members, not some crazy ideal.
Selim	Posted - 2004.12.17 03:05:00 - [104] Outstanding post, DC. I'll add that induvidual corps looking out for their own profits and staking a claim in the great 0.0 wastelands and building it up into something great for themselves is what should happen. Alliances go against that completely. Alliances are communist to the core. Induvidualism is the first step to true economic independence. If alliances did not exist, corporations would quite well be better off induvidually since they are really looking out for themselves and their own members, not some crazy ideal.
medriana	Posted - 2004.12.17 23:13:00 - [105] so many long posts..
medriana	Posted - 2004.12.17 23:13:00 - [106] so many long posts..
Destable	Posted - 2004.12.18 04:30:00 - [107] Heya Digi, Thanks for the well thought out reply. I will try to remember to respond to some of the points you made at more length another time. One thing you are right on is that it was very generalistic and I over simplified many things, including sweeping all territorial, ultra-agressive corps and alliances into one group. I intended to do this, however. I was trying to give a visualization of my vision of the future of EVE 0.0 from a distant, non-specific perspective. To use an analogy, I was speaking from someone looking at EVE with the map zoomed all the way out. Of course when you zoom in on any particular area, you'll see differences from other parts of EVE. You'll see groups who don't fit into what I said, areas that do not progress in the manner I envision. Regards, Dest
Destable	Posted - 2004.12.18 04:30:00 - [108] Heya Digi, Thanks for the well thought out reply. I will try to remember to respond to some of the points you made at more length another time. One thing you are right on is that it was very generalistic and I over simplified many things, including sweeping all territorial, ultra-agressive corps and alliances into one group. I intended to do this, however. I was trying to give a visualization of my vision of the future of EVE 0.0 from a distant, non-specific perspective. To use an analogy, I was speaking from someone looking at EVE with the map zoomed all the way out. Of course when you zoom in on any particular area, you'll see differences from other parts of EVE. You'll see groups who don't fit into what I said, areas that do not progress in the manner I envision. Regards, Dest
SweatySack	Posted - 2004.12.18 09:12:00 - [109] Very nice view dest...but what happens when ships and equipment comes out for the sole purpose of distroying a POS. Even before that equipment comes into play I am sure we will find a way to blow them up. There is nothing that is completly invulnerable. Not sure if someone brought that up yet...I havnt read the whole thread.
SweatySack	Posted - 2004.12.18 09:12:00 - [110] Very nice view dest...but what happens when ships and equipment comes out for the sole purpose of distroying a POS. Even before that equipment comes into play I am sure we will find a way to blow them up. There is nothing that is completly invulnerable. Not sure if someone brought that up yet...I havnt read the whole thread.
bUBbLeS	Posted - 2004.12.18 11:23:00 - [111] Originally by: SweatySack Very nice view dest...but what happens when ships and equipment comes out for the sole purpose of distroying a POS. Even before that equipment comes into play I am sure we will find a way to blow them up. There is nothing that is completly invulnerable. Not sure if someone brought that up yet...I havnt read the whole thread. can you say XL guns, XL torps, TL2 Bships, Carriers, TITANS all scheduled for next year.... \o/ Julius ceaser : "operor vos volo MCCCXXXVII laganum bUBbLeS?"
bUBbLeS	Posted - 2004.12.18 11:23:00 - [112] Originally by: SweatySack Very nice view dest...but what happens when ships and equipment comes out for the sole purpose of distroying a POS. Even before that equipment comes into play I am sure we will find a way to blow them up. There is nothing that is completly invulnerable. Not sure if someone brought that up yet...I havnt read the whole thread. can you say XL guns, XL torps, TL2 Bships, Carriers, TITANS all scheduled for next year.... \o/ Julius ceaser : "operor vos volo MCCCXXXVII laganum bUBbLeS?"
PaulAtreides	Posted - 2004.12.18 11:35:00 - [113] Originally by: bUBbLeS Originally by: SweatySack Very nice view dest...but what happens when ships and equipment comes out for the sole purpose of distroying a POS. Even before that equipment comes into play I am sure we will find a way to blow them up. There is nothing that is completly invulnerable. Not sure if someone brought that up yet...I havnt read the whole thread. can you say XL guns, XL torps, TL2 Bships, Carriers, TITANS all scheduled for next year.... \o/ I'm not sure titan's with their current 15km targeting range is going to be effective against POS.... they won't even be able to target the control tower if they were sitting on top of the force field. Ultra-long range artillary ... siege type setups will be the key to taking out POS without trying to starve them. Want to work for me?
PaulAtreides	Posted - 2004.12.18 11:35:00 - [114] Originally by: bUBbLeS Originally by: SweatySack Very nice view dest...but what happens when ships and equipment comes out for the sole purpose of distroying a POS. Even before that equipment comes into play I am sure we will find a way to blow them up. There is nothing that is completly invulnerable. Not sure if someone brought that up yet...I havnt read the whole thread. can you say XL guns, XL torps, TL2 Bships, Carriers, TITANS all scheduled for next year.... \o/ I'm not sure titan's with their current 15km targeting range is going to be effective against POS.... they won't even be able to target the control tower if they were sitting on top of the force field. Ultra-long range artillary ... siege type setups will be the key to taking out POS without trying to starve them. Want to work for me?
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.18 12:07:00 - [115] Originally by: PaulAtreides I'm not sure titan's with their current 15km targeting range is going to be effective against POS.... they won't even be able to target the control tower if they were sitting on top of the force field. Ultra-long range artillary ... siege type setups will be the key to taking out POS without trying to starve them. Current titan stats are placeholders. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.18 12:07:00 - [116] Originally by: PaulAtreides I'm not sure titan's with their current 15km targeting range is going to be effective against POS.... they won't even be able to target the control tower if they were sitting on top of the force field. Ultra-long range artillary ... siege type setups will be the key to taking out POS without trying to starve them. Current titan stats are placeholders. [Heterocephalus glaber]

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