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EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 16:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'll just have to quote Wikipedia, which caters to the lowest common denominator and is not subject to much interpretation regarding academics backed with texts.
"Chrematistics (from Greek: -ç-ü+++++¦-ä+¦-â-ä+¦+¦+«) according to Thales of Miletus is the art of getting rich.
Aristotle established the fundamental difference between economics and chrematistics. The accumulation of money itself is an unnatural activity that dehumanizes those who practice it. Like Plato, he condemns the accumulation of wealth. Trade exchanges money for goods and usury creates money from money. The merchant does not produce anything: both are reprehensible from the standpoint of philosophical ethics.
According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price]; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."
All of the market players basically indulge in the most lame, degenerate and corrupt form of economy there is. It's actually self-evident. I, for one, felt dirty each time I did it, and really don't see the point anymore. Doing it is just being a hurdle in the way things pass from hands to hands. It is being a parasite leeching on the life-force of goods exchanged.
What's really depressing is that for most, such truths cannot be experienced, so tainted their souls are. |

Deacon Blue Jouhinen
Terra Nova Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 16:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oh good, well that about fills my daily quota of self-righteous preachy crap. This is the same kind of troll the guy at McDonalds tries when he makes my burger. |

EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 16:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Greek philosophers were self-righteous and preachy |

Liberty Eternal
The Scope Gallente Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 17:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Please don't ever, EVER try to mis-use Aristotle to back up your insidious, corrupting socialist propaganda ever again.
That will be all, thank you. |

EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 17:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
But it's not socialist, I'm actually a libertarian
However, libertarianism only works when people demonstrate common decency, which illicit chrematistics don't belong in. |

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
507
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 17:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
It's a description of a /small/ scale economy. It just doesn't work when you increase the scale.
It precludes, for example, companies such as supermarkets. Enjoy wandering out to a farm when you want to buy anything. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |

Gr0uch
Kador Systems Aerodyne Collective
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 17:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:libertarianism works
I think I found the hole in your theory. |

Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 17:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:I'll just have to quote Wikipedia, which caters to the lowest common denominator and is not subject to much interpretation regarding academics backed with texts.
"Chrematistics (from Greek: -ç-ü+++++¦-ä+¦-â-ä+¦+¦+«) according to Thales of Miletus is the art of getting rich.
Aristotle established the fundamental difference between economics and chrematistics. The accumulation of money itself is an unnatural activity that dehumanizes those who practice it. Like Plato, he condemns the accumulation of wealth. Trade exchanges money for goods and usury creates money from money. The merchant does not produce anything: both are reprehensible from the standpoint of philosophical ethics.
According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."
All of the market players basically indulge in the most lame, degenerate and corrupt form of economy there is. It's actually self-evident. I, for one, felt dirty each time I did it, and really don't see the point anymore. Doing it is just being a hurdle in the way things pass from hands to hands. It is being a parasite leeching on the life-force of goods exchanged, on the life-force of the market.
What's really depressing is that for most, such truths cannot be experienced, so tainted their souls are.
This only occurs because people are lazy. So don't blame the people who make money off this, blame the lazy people who enable this type of behaviour. |

EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 18:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:It's a description of a /small/ scale economy. It just doesn't work when you increase the scale.
It precludes, for example, companies such as supermarkets. Enjoy wandering out to a farm when you want to buy anything.
Very true, but supermarkets do provide a transportation and convenience service. It's not purely playing on goods to earn a profit without providing anything to the community.
Srioghal moDhream wrote: This only occurs because people are lazy. So don't blame the people who make money off this, blame the lazy people who enable this type of behaviour.
There is some truth in that also, but you cannot rule out people who will buy all of x good in an area, to resell it at a higher price. Said good is then unavailable. |

Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom Real Life Rejects
17
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 19:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hey do not pick on libertarians we may be a little deluded about how little goverment is needed, but we are at least facing in the right direction.
The whole idea of no value added by retailers, usery rate and other fear mongering by philosphers impose on the business world is because they see the transaction as price - materails equals profit. They ignore the whole concepts of time value of money, the value to the end user of conveniance, the fact that some things that are not worth doing on a small scale become massively profitable on a huge scale (not worth figuring out the best way to dispose of 50m3 of mission loot, but to the guy who buys and sorts through 10k m3 a day it is worth it ). The market in eve returns the value of lquidity and time back to the equation.
That of course is unless you have a GD $%^$%^$ market bot .01 isking you all day.
|

Mr Bushar
Myron Gainez
15
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 19:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Liberty Eternal wrote:Please don't ever, EVER try to mis-use Aristotle to back up your insidious, corrupting socialist propaganda ever again.
That will be all, thank you.
I think I love you
|

Bifordus Maximus
MissoCorp
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 20:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
I thought this was a videogame. i don't think anyone really cares about such things.  |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1670
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 20:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote: According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."
There's a lot of short sight in that statement (made by you or Aristotle does not matter).
Traders on a macro scale infuse liquidity in the system, that's their "goods". They make so that the added value actually decreases due to competition. Check illiquid markets, spreads are huge and thus prices are not "right" as you state above.
Liquid markets - and they are liquid also because of traders - have small spread so the end consumer pays less added value.
Notice the "less" term: don't delude yourself, even direct sales have added value, sometimes well superior than identical large scale commoditized items. By Aristotle there'd be no licit trading, I know no one who would knowingly sell at a loss or at pure "right price".
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Domitian Aurelius
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 20:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Additionally, traders in EVE provide value in many locations by buying stuff you want to sell *immediately*.
If you'd truly like to hold on the that 150mm Railgun I for a day while you wait for someone to come along and buy it, then list it on the market. If you want the cash immediately, sell it to a middleman (me) for half the price and i'll do the waiting for you (as a valuable service no less!).
-Dom |

EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 20:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote: According to Aristotle, the "necessary" chrematistic economy is licit if the sale of goods is made directly between the producer and buyer at the right price; it does not generate a value-added product. By contrast, it is illicit if the producer purchases for resale to consumers for a higher price, generating added value. The money must be only a medium of exchange and measure of value."
There's a lot of short sight in that statement (made by you or Aristotle does not matter). Traders on a macro scale infuse liquidity in the system, that's their "goods". They make so that the added value actually decreases due to competition. Check illiquid markets, spreads are huge and thus prices are not "right" as you state above. Liquid markets - and they are liquid also because of traders - have small spread so the end consumer pays less added value. Notice the "less" term: don't delude yourself, even direct sales have added value, sometimes well superior than identical large scale commoditized items. By Aristotle there'd be no licit trading, I know no one who would knowingly sell at a loss or at pure "right price".
How is buying and reselling something that would be bought anyway -at a lower price-, adding liquidity, grease, and flexibility to a market? |

Deacon Blue Jouhinen
Terra Nova Solutions
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 21:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:
How is buying and reselling something that would be bought anyway -at a lower price-, adding liquidity, grease, and flexibility to a market?
Wait a second... you think that in a world without traders the item would be sold at a lower price? I bet if we get rid of all the guns there will be no violence too. |

EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 21:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Deacon Blue Jouhinen wrote: Wait a second... you think that in a world without traders the item would be sold at a lower price? I bet if we get rid of all the guns there will be no violence too.
I'm merely asking how parasitic inflation of the prices, without any convenience added to the goods or their delivery of, adds grease and flexibility to a market? |

Xiang Jing
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 21:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Convenience? Convenience is added via the service being faster. |

EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 21:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Xiang Jing wrote:Convenience? Convenience is added via the service being faster.
So when someone puts its good on the market, and someone buys them to resell them, it makes them faster to buy?
An added step means a quicker service? |

Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
722
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 01:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
I am sure Aristotle would also agree that murder, invasion, and extermination of entire organizations is a valid way to obtain resources, and that "because I can" is enough of a reason to destroy a defenseless vessel in a suicide attack. |

Xiang Jing
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 03:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:Xiang Jing wrote:Convenience? Convenience is added via the service being faster. So when someone puts its good on the market, and someone buys them to resell them, it makes them faster to buy? An added step means a quicker service?
It certainly can, yes. Travel times, location, amount of good available, etc...
You're looking at this all in a sort of one direction mode. If all this trading created "parasitic inflation" then prices would be under never ending inflation. Obviously a single trader or even group of traders can not wield that kind of influence infinitely.
And if nothing else, the income for the second seller is going to still cycle through the market. They're like the Eve version of a high consumption used game salesperson. |

EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 05:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:I am sure Aristotle would also agree that murder, invasion, and extermination of entire organizations is a valid way to obtain resources, and that "because I can" is enough of a reason to destroy a defenseless vessel in a suicide attack.
Is this the Crime & Punishment subforum? |

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
507
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 10:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
I do have to say... Why so serious? Let's put a smile on your face.

When a trader buys everything in an area, then immediately relists at a higher price (no movement) then I can see an argument against them. But not much else. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |

Kyle Ward
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
256
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 12:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have trouble taking anything said by a guy named EpicFailTroll seriously... The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong! |
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