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democrities
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Posted - 2010.07.01 22:54:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ralnorth Gibnor I see a ton of threads talking about how this is bound to happen, whether its good or bad, etc. And I know CCP just implemented a way to allocate skill points...
But where did this idea of learning skills going away come from to begin with? Did CCP say anything that would give real weight to all this speculation?
Because people are ******s. They read one line in a dev blog and then proceeded to "OMG!!!! LEARNING SKILLS GOING AWAY!" "ZOMG! THEY ARE SELLING SKILL POINTS" "ZOMG! EVE IS DYING< MICRO TRANSACTIONS!"
all from 1 little line of text
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Joe Skellington
Minmatar JOKAS Industries Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:00:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Joe Skellington on 01/07/2010 23:01:35
Originally by: Xindi Kraid Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 01/07/2010 22:51:48
Originally by: Zeba Good point but I removed all the skills that have no effect on gameplay and put in skills that do.
Actually I think you misssed the point. My point was you don;t have to train JUST learning skills. THe tier 1 skills you have access to as a newbie don't take very long to train, so the affect learning skills have on them can be measured in minutes, so it is perfectly acceptable to, instead of spending 2 weeks training learning skills, spend a month alternating between learning and other core skills. To be honest, even without learning skills, you are VERY limited by what you can do. Even if you say, "screw learning skills, I'm not training them" your options are very limited; add ISK into the mix, and most new players have to spend those two weeks with crap equipment. it's fairly easy for your training to cause what you can use to outpace what you can afford. Now back to the learning skills, training them and slowing down training for that cruiser becomes acceptable because you won't be able to afford a cruiser in the 2 days it takes to be able to fly one.
This has become worse since they removed preallocated skills since you start with less ability to fit equipment, what you can use is less effective, and theres more core skills you have to purchase. That change has made it HARDER to just make an account and play. No matter how you slice it, learning skills or not, the first few weeks of eve are fairly slow and non-eventful. I imagine even if learning skills were gotten rid of, we'd still have droves of trial players leaving before their trial is up because not being able to use anything is boring. Some just don't have the patience for EvE.
Yeah, that about sums it up. I thought DUST514 was supposed to give ADHD kiddies the instant gratification they need to keep playing. Most people I know that train learning skills do so because they are in the game for the long haul and care about having the learning bonuses. On the rare occasion we get the Ebayer who buys a $600 dollar paperclip with a free 2003 character to get it all the easy way.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:00:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Brannor McThife Ok... so the can refund time spent on training learning skills. Fine. But removing the stat bonuses given by the learning skills results in future skills taking far longer. Thus, there's no real way to compensate for that unless we were given an additional 10 points per attribute as a base, on top of giving everyone SP equivalent to the SP/Time invested in skilling those up - note, some people would have had high attributes for gaining learning skills faster, and then switched out to combat attributes for learning combat skills faster.
i.e. Me as a combat pilot, I have sub 20 attributes for Int, etc. (Including implants). It took me ages to skill up my learning skills. Whereas my alt, which has extremely high base Int, etc. would complete the learning skills far faster.
It's going to be complex enough working out how much to fairly compensate for days gone by... and then ensure that people that have already got the skills don't suddenly find themselves training Rank 10 skills at a significantly slower rate.
-G
It's not that complicated. Giving everyone the +10 and then removing the Learning skills is the easiest and most likely thing they will do. That won't affect anything you're training negatively; if for some reason you didn't train the learning skills, you'll actually be getting a bonus. Then they can refund the learning skill points... If they're concerned that people will complain that they now have too much Mem that would have been Per if Learning didn't exist, they can give everyone a free neural remap as well.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Xindi Kraid
Originally by: Zeba Good point but I removed all the skills that have no effect on gameplay and put in skills that do.
Actually I think you misssed the point. My point was you don;t have to train JUST learning skills. THe tier 1 skills you have access to as a newbie don't take very long to train, so the affect learning skills have on them can be measured in minutes, so it is perfectly acceptable to, instead of spending 2 weeks training learning skills, spend a month alternating between learning and other core skills.
I got your point that its a good thing for noobies to learn to properly utilize the skill queue to efficiently get to the shineys they want to use. What the learning skills have to do with that practice however is beyond me. What difference is there if they queue up useful skills over adding in 'make-work' learning skills? They still learn to properly queue them up. Also it is 100% mandatory to train up all your learning skills to at least 4/4(yes, it is mandatory. as in you can always choose to not wear shoes when out walking in the snow but thats just simple stupidity) so thats nearly two months of training wasted on skills that do nothing but make skills train faster regardless if you do them all at once or seed them into your queue with the useful skills. It is quite frankly counter productive even when seen in the moast favorable light.
Originally by: Xindi Kraid To be honest, even without learning skills, you are VERY limited by what you can do. Even if you say, "screw learning skills, I'm not training them" your options are very limited; add ISK into the mix, and most new players have to spend those two weeks with crap equipment. it's fairly easy for your training to cause what you can use to outpace what you can afford. Now back to the learning skills, training them and slowing down training for that cruiser becomes acceptable because you won't be able to afford a cruiser in the 2 days it takes to be able to fly one.
The number one complaint I have heard from both new players and old players who are training up alts is that its a total pain in the arse to have to train up the learning skills to get to the stuff they can both competantly use and easily afford. It's not ccp's fault if your personal experiance was that you could not afford the stuff you were training for or knew how to properly use them one you finished the basic skills learning included. Anyways that goes back to the whole choice argument about having consequences for chooseing what skill to train. If the person got into a cruiser in two days but can't fit or fly it properly then they chose unwisely and should have put the sp from that cruiser into the support skills first. Besides I'm sure the initial intended effect was to slow down overall skilling times so players wouldn't run out of the limited content at the time. And for anyone who was around at the start they can heartily attest that it was limited. Things have changed mightily since then and is the reason for ccp second guessing themselves over having them still in the game.
Originally by: Xindi Kraid This has become worse since they removed preallocated skills since you start with less ability to fit equipment, what you can use is less effective, and theres more core skills you have to purchase. That change has made it HARDER to just make an account and play. No matter how you slice it, learning skills or not, the first few weeks of eve are fairly slow and non-eventful. I imagine even if learning skills were gotten rid of, we'd still have droves of trial players leaving before their trial is up because not being able to use anything is boring. Some just don't have the patience for EvE.
So you admit that players feel it is a pain to get in the stuff they want especially with the learning skills added in? Contradict yourself much?
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:55:00 -
[35]
I personally thought learning skills added a layer of planning to skills that is seen in every other area of the game. I still do, if they go away I will adapt. miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:20:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/07/2010 01:24:29
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Brannor McThife Ok... so the can refund time spent on training learning skills. Fine. But removing the stat bonuses given by the learning skills results in future skills taking far longer. Thus, there's no real way to compensate for that unless we were given an additional 10 points per attribute as a base, on top of giving everyone SP equivalent to the SP/Time invested in skilling those up - note, some people would have had high attributes for gaining learning skills faster, and then switched out to combat attributes for learning combat skills faster.
i.e. Me as a combat pilot, I have sub 20 attributes for Int, etc. (Including implants). It took me ages to skill up my learning skills. Whereas my alt, which has extremely high base Int, etc. would complete the learning skills far faster.
It's going to be complex enough working out how much to fairly compensate for days gone by... and then ensure that people that have already got the skills don't suddenly find themselves training Rank 10 skills at a significantly slower rate.
-G
It's not that complicated. Giving everyone the +10 and then removing the Learning skills is the easiest and most likely thing they will do. That won't affect anything you're training negatively; if for some reason you didn't train the learning skills, you'll actually be getting a bonus. Then they can refund the learning skill points... If they're concerned that people will complain that they now have too much Mem that would have been Per if Learning didn't exist, they can give everyone a free neural remap as well.
If ccp decides to get rid of the learning skills then everything is already in place past a slight redo of the character creation process. You will be given an option turn in the skills to put the sp into the pool. Then you will do a one time skill point respec to reallocate the points the learning skills used to give. All done and back to business with minimal fuss for all.
Originally by: RaWBLooD I personally thought learning skills added a layer of planning to skills that is seen in every other area of the game.
They do. But you have to look at them and ask yourself is it worth it? As I explained in my previous post the circumstances that made the learning skills relevant when eve first started no longer really apply as there is litterally years and years of content to skill up for nowadays even if you specialize in just one area whatever it may be. Right now those two months of skilling are a rather large barrier to getting newer players to stick around and play the game. A common example would be the guys who have been playing for years and have all the good stuff and get a friend to join. Now since he is going to be getting hands on experiance and isk from his friends then all he really needs to do is get into something useful so he can contribute and learn as he goes. As it stands unless he is happy just poking about in a crap name fitted t1 frig with low support skills and dying horribly for the first couple of months then what would have been a long term player turns into yet another trial account that expires and another set of unhappy long term players who are desperate to keep new players interested. The learning skills are simply a hinderance to the current game and would hurt nothing if removed but would certainly help to make the first key months of eve a better experiance.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Chony
Caldari Dunder Mifflin Paper Co.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 01:35:00 -
[37]
They should at least keep Learning since its only a 1x training time skill just for nostalgia.
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Stupid McStupidson
Gallente Hoek Lyne and Sinker
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Posted - 2010.07.02 03:25:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ralnorth Gibnor I see a ton of threads talking about how this...
Yet you were compelled to create yet another one? You might find this helpful
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Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.02 03:37:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Chony
They should at least keep Learning since its only a 1x training time skill just for nostalgia.
i think we could all get behind this
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Priss Eluveitie
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:00:00 -
[40]
Newb here, I actually like the Learning skills. :<
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Psylynt Rain
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:11:00 -
[41]
I must have missed something when I started EVE. I didn't get the learning skill books in my items hanger, or had enough money when I first logged on to buy them and train them before anything else. A new player will have to train other skills first before they acquire enough isk to buy the skill books. As with all the other threads on this topic, people do put to much importance on telling new people to train the learning skills before they train anything else. It does seem the side that wants the learning skills taken out want to be compensated by having the attributes boosted by the same amount as the learning skills give..... hmmm, sounds like they want the reward without doing the work. If CCP really wants to avoid new players getting frustrated with spending the trial period doing nothing but logging on to update the learning skills in the que (this is the main argument for getting rid of them). The solution is simple, don't allow trial accounts to train learning skills at all, just like some of the other skills you get during the tutorials (industrial ship for example), or maybe even make it 30 days before a character can train the learning skills. To remove the learning skills and up the attributes to compensate is just really not what EVE is about.. you put in the effort, you get the rewards.
just my 2isk..
Fly smart Psy
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Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:58:00 -
[42]
if they remove the learning skills making an alt account will finally be worth it. every time i think about it i remmember 2-3 months will be stupid skills like learning engineering ect. but at least engineering DOES somthing
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.02 05:47:00 -
[43]
We're hoping that if we keep saying it is going to happen then CCP will also believe it will happen and then work on implementing it. - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.02 06:05:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Priss Eluveitie Newb here, I actually like the Learning skills. :<
You probably can't help it
*gently pats Priss* it's not your fault
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Helio Amor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 06:23:00 -
[45]
Congratz Ralnorth, you just added one more to a ton of threads to this argument perhaps next time we can keep it in one thread eh? No CCP hasn't said anything both sides have used this to their advantage. For say CCP isn't saying anything because there is no need to because it won't happen. Against is saying CCP isn't saying anything because they are waiting to see our reaction before they announce and the quietness of CCP implies backdoor dealings.
I personally could give a flying flip what they do, as long as I can get SP back that I trained. As for this whole SP allocation thing I serious doubt CCP would create a specific system just to distribute points when needed. Who knows maybe they did, one thing is for certain this sytem has been long in the making before the server nightmare last week so server DT being down an extensive time was irrelevant to this new system. You just don't out of the blue decide to give SP back for a DT the first time in 7 years unless you have a new system and reason for it.
You don't create a system on the dime like they did so it had to be in the making. I doubt it was designed to completely remove learning skills I think it was just in case in the future CCP decided to remove time bonus and give noobs a set amount of allocated skills instead. That way they can get skills they need instantly and have fun in the game while training learning skills rather then train learning skills and not get any skills till learning skills are done.
Like I said I don't care one way or another about the whole learning skills but I am strongly in favor of taking out the time bonus and giving noobs a set amount of allocated skills to start. It doesnt have to be ridiculous like 1.6 mil but I think between 6-800K is a good figure to get a noob started and still have room to allocate a few thousand to learning skills to start those up, at least a few levels.
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Pookie McPook
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Posted - 2010.07.02 06:40:00 -
[46]
To all those espousing that learning skills are a roadblock on enjoyment I would suggest coming to these forums to complain about them is even more of a waste of their time. In the meantime play the game the way it is presented. Or not. -----
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Leneerra
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.02 07:39:00 -
[47]
Of course the removal bit is speculation.
They could also use this mechanic to add skillpoints instantly upon using an item Imagine getting learning skill levels as rewards on tutorial missions. benefits: - bad start for new players eliminated. - more incentive to do the tutorial missions. - no changes to the existing system.
This kind of implementation would in my opinion yield better results and avoids us vets gaining several million skillpoints instantaniously in whatever ftm skill (set) we choose
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
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Posted - 2010.07.02 08:07:00 -
[48]
The answer is simple, no learning skills on trial accounts, can not train learning skills while the 1.6 mil boost is active. There, solved it, your welcome. Trolls? In my EVE forums? It's more likely than you think... |
Simply Human
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Posted - 2010.07.02 08:15:00 -
[49]
All this speculation, and we don't even know if the system they made to give every person x amount of skill points is even capable of doing what you say it can. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Caldari Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.02 08:48:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen on 02/07/2010 08:52:36 I find myself on the fence on the whole issue.
I reckon the vast majority of new players (who start playing on their own volition) don't see anything wrong with Learning Skills. They are what they are, its a long-term benefit v short-term detriment. Fits very well into the feel of the game. Certainly, when I joined, I viewed it as part of the games 'flavour'. For a new player. most skills they want are trained in 30 minutes to 2-3 hours, so the Learning Skills arent causing any real block (besides, as the chap several posts above points out, you have to afford the skill books before you worry about training them).
However, for a new player who joins on the recommendations of a friend, to play with that friend, he will find them an intolerable barrier to entry. I suspect this is because they come in with an expectation of 'where the game starts'. They have a preconcieved notion that they cant have fun until they hit a certain ship or sp level; and in this case, the Learning Skills are actively stopping them get there. Such a player might have a 'isk gift' from their recruiter, so with isk not holding them back (like with a true new player), the only thing doing so is skills (As lets be fair - a new char with 1-3 +1 implants gained from early missions is going to be a lot less bothered about maximising their attributes than the new guy who got a gift of full +5's on arrival, the latter being far more aware they are missing a small poece of 'max efficiency').
As for would I like the skills gone? Personally, yes... but I am honest enough to know I am only saying that as it would be of greater benefit to me now, than keeping them would - having just hit the point where im staring at a couple of months training to get my 'mandatory' t2 gun skills, a chunky skill point reimbursement and a few bonus skill points (as my learnings are mostly 4/3, barring maxed perception) would save me sitting on my arse for a few months. From a more non-selfish standpoint, sure, removing them would make all newbies lives a little easier (and vets alts, but lets be fair, we shouldn't be doing it for them), but it would remove a bit of the flavour of the game, therefore I am against. Non Moritur Cuius Fama Vivat He Dies Not Whose Fame Survives |
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Shintai
Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io
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Posted - 2010.07.02 08:58:00 -
[51]
Some people that didnt train their learning skills to 5 whines over those that did and now reaping the benefits from it.
The same people was most likely telling how dumb it was to train learning skills to 5 some years back.
And since 98% of people dont post on forums we know how it ends.
I remember when started in 2003. That learning 5 I think would take 2 years to get back. Well, thats 7 years ago! --------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:29:00 -
[52]
First...this is the evidence most often referred to when people claim that "CCP" is totally disgusted with themselves for the shame of creating learning skills. It's 4 minute discussion at FF2009 (look at about minutes 38:00-42:00).
Personally, I don't get the extrapolation people are making, but whatever.
I like learning skills since they introduce an element of diversity to the game. When games start removing mechanics in the name of "balance" things go downhill fast. Learning rates should be different for different pilots, and we should have some control over that. Allowing all pilots to learn all skills at identical rates takes away from yet another diversity aspect of eve. I'm more inclined that a lvl4/lvl3 learning skill plan makes more sense for a new player. That's 10 days of training.
All pilots enter the game with sufficient skills to fly a frigate and a mining ship. That seems sufficient free skills to begin the game. There's no reason for a new pilot to sit in station. CCP allows you to fly on minute 1.
I vote no.
KB
=vinur allra manna
MetaGaming |
Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:34:00 -
[53]
it seems like most people who are against the removal of learning skills wouldnt mind it if only there were a detailed (AND GOOD) system to replace it, which i agree with.
as a vet myself, i don't LOVE learning skills. but it was a cool aspect of the game that i had to master. simply removing learning skills and giving +11 attribs to everyone has got to be the absolute worst solution to this that i have seen. we have many many old archaeic systems in eve just like the attribute system, with its closest relative, cybernetics system, coming to mind.
i believe CCP will expand upon current ingame resources to eliminate learning skills. but they should keep 'Learning' itself in, just so that we're always reminded of the nostalgic past.
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jona1
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:35:00 -
[54]
Edited by: jona1 on 02/07/2010 16:36:14
Originally by: KaarBaak
First...this is the evidence most often referred to when people claim that "CCP" is totally disgusted with themselves for the shame of creating learning skills.
Cause CCP SOUNDWAVE SAYS SO!, damning evidence there that ccp want them removed /sarcasm
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Magnus Orin
Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:42:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Magnus Orin on 02/07/2010 16:44:35 Meh, I think learning skills are fine.
Edit: I think it is healthy to have some variance in the speed in which characters train skills.
I don't want every pod pilot in Eve to have the same attributes and train at the exact same time. Learning skills are all about the foundation of your character. Most MMO's force you to do this before you log in the very first time, Eve lets you pace your foundation as you go.
Pros out way the cons to me. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
WittyName Here
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Magnus Orin Edited by: Magnus Orin on 02/07/2010 16:44:35 Meh, I think learning skills are fine.
Edit: I think it is healthy to have some variance in the speed in which characters train skills.
I don't want every pod pilot in Eve to have the same attributes and train at the exact same time. Learning skills are all about the foundation of your character. Most MMO's force you to do this before you log in the very first time, Eve lets you pace your foundation as you go.
Pros out way the cons to me.
There are these things called remaps and implants.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:36:00 -
[57]
Originally by: jona1 Cause CCP SOUNDWAVE SAYS SO!, damning evidence there that ccp want them removed /sarcasm
No, it's more a question of: because Eris says so, and has told Soundwave (and three unnamed devs) to figure out how it could be doneà ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Magnus Orin
Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:36:00 -
[58]
Originally by: WittyName Here
Originally by: Magnus Orin Edited by: Magnus Orin on 02/07/2010 16:44:35 Meh, I think learning skills are fine.
Edit: I think it is healthy to have some variance in the speed in which characters train skills.
I don't want every pod pilot in Eve to have the same attributes and train at the exact same time. Learning skills are all about the foundation of your character. Most MMO's force you to do this before you log in the very first time, Eve lets you pace your foundation as you go.
Pros out way the cons to me.
There are these things called remaps and implants.
They serve an almost identical function to learning skills.
I don't really understand how you could be against learning skills, but not remaps and implants.
It seems to me that they either all go, or they all stay.
Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you. |
Chir Ishi
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:05:00 -
[59]
Originally by: KaarBaak
That's 10 days of training.
All pilots enter the game with sufficient skills to fly a frigate and a mining ship. That seems sufficient free skills to begin the game. There's no reason for a new pilot to sit in station. CCP allows you to fly on minute 1.
I vote no.
KB
10 Day's of training skills... While many of us have grown to love spreadsheet's online, a new player may not find an increase from "980 to 1700" very interesting. This does not sell copies of the game.
How about 10 days of new modules, higher tech, awesome missions, cheep pvp.. 10 days of pure fun.
Chilling out in your tech 1 mining ship for 10 days is not fun (unless you are warped).
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:12:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Magnus Orin They serve an almost identical function to learning skills.
I don't really understand how you could be against learning skills, but not remaps and implants.
It seems to me that they either all go, or they all stay.
Remaps and implants are limited in other ways, and require all of one rank 3 skill between them (which you only need to train to lvl 1 to gain most of the benefits) ù a skill that also provides vast in-game benefits beyond the meta-game ones you get through the attribute implants. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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