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Asik Rova
Manufact Co.
X-Non
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Asik Rova on 04/07/2010 16:55:37
Alright so my CEO and I were pretty bored yesterday so we decided to try and figure out how much PI Raw materials/P2 should really cost. This is what he found.
P1
aquaeus liquid: 9.83
carbon: 12.78
micro organism: 11.79
heavy metal: 12.78
suspended plasma: 12.78
base metal: 10.81
Non-Cs crystals: 13.76
noble metal: 12.79
planktic colonies: 13.76
noble gas: 13.76
ionic solution: 13.76
complex organism: 13.76
autotrophs: 14.74
felsic magma: 14.74
reactive gas: 14.74
P2
water: 1474.5
biofuel: 1917
bacteria: 1768.5
toxic metals: 1917
plasmoid: 1917
reactive metals: 1621.5
chiral structures: 2064
precious metal: 1917
biomass: 2064
oxygen: 2064
electrolyte: 2064
proteins: 2064
industrial fibers: 2211
silicon: 2211
Oxidizing compounds: 2211
I will not go into the math behind it, as it would take awhile to explain. But what I am wondering are these projections in the ball park? We tried to make it at costs that would make PI worth doing at all levels. It seems to be pretty close. This discussion should not take to long. Post away.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 04/07/2010 17:14:25
 Originally by: Asik Rova
P1
aquaeus liquid: 9.83
P2
water: 1474.5
I will not go into the math behind it, as it would take awhile to explain.
First off, just using this as an example. It takes 3000 Aqueous liquids to make 20 water. Using the numbers you provided yields a profit of 40 ISK. Now if you figure import/export costs you actually lose ISK if you were to buy the P0, import it, produce water, and export it.
I would suggest he goes back and redo everything figuring in import/export costs.
Then again in the end the numbers are meaningless as they will be worth what people can sell them for.
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Droxlyn
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:17:00 -
[3]
Let's see what that looks like here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Av49RIDL-V7zdFN0NTZtcjdBMHRxZC1pbUdpVEJsNmc&hl=en#gid=1
Drox
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Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Kamikaze Project
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Posted - 2010.07.05 00:51:00 -
[4]
Actually OP, I'd like to know how you came up with those numbers, because they look rather high to me, and with those prices, POS fuels and the like will be very expensive.
<a href="https://eve-search.com/externalLink.asp?l=http%3A%2F%2Frumandmonkey%2Ecom%2Fwidgets%2Ftoys%2Ftestgen%2F6199%2F"><img src="http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/9/9/6199/25764.jpg" title="Industrialist with teeth" alt="Industrialist with teeth" border="0" |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.05 01:08:00 -
[5]
Cost of any PI raw extract goes as follows:
X = Plex Cost/ 43,200 minutes / 3
Y = Total Amount Raw PI Materials Extracted per minute
X/Y
Value, otoh, is much harder to figure.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Asik Rova
Manufact Co.
X-Non
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Posted - 2010.07.05 03:15:00 -
[6]
Ahh he fixed it and re calculated. Please recheck.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.05 03:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Asik Rova
Ahh he fixed it and re calculated. Please recheck.
Rechecking arbitrary numbers is, arbitrarily speaking, an arbitrary waste of everyone's, and anyone's, time. But only in the arbitrary sense.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Asik Rova
Manufact Co.
X-Non
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Posted - 2010.07.05 03:50:00 -
[8]
Its just arbitrary numbers.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.05 03:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Asik Rova
Its just arbitrary numbers.
That's the point. I could do just as good a job by saying that Acqueous Liquids = Chicken Bullion & Base Metals = Theft. Without the benefit of the math, without any method of understanding, without being able to proof, you are posting sheer fantasy. Uninteresting fantasy. So, my suggestion, go into the math. Anyone don't like it they don't have to read it. I would read it though as a matter of courtesy.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Darthion Illys
Amarr
Tyrans d'Or
Tyrans d'0r
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Posted - 2010.07.05 04:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Asik Rova
Ahh he fixed it and re calculated. Please recheck.
Rechecking arbitrary numbers is, arbitrarily speaking, an arbitrary waste of everyone's, and anyone's, time. But only in the arbitrary sense.
Could you have more sand in your *****? Seriously?
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Janice Polito
Tech 3 Hotsauce Limited
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Posted - 2010.07.05 04:11:00 -
[11]
Is this supposed to be baseprices or something? Because the variance between commons and rares is way too small, and the idea that wetwares will be more valuable than power cores is never ever going to be true. |
Quantessa
Amarr
TOG Empire
DRACONIAN COVENANT
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Posted - 2010.07.05 04:15:00 -
[12]
Agreed, it's just pointless without the maths.
It looks wrong anyway. Most people calculating these types of data start from the wrong end. Price is determined from the demand end, not the supply end.
In other words if POS manufacture requires a lot more Wetware Mainframes than other p4s then the components that make up that P4 are more valuable.
The correct methodology would be to start with the data for POS structure sales, POS fuel sales and Nano paste sales, from there calculate what the market consumes, analyse how supply will create patterns (for example the p2s that can be produced on a single planet are likely to be more over-produced than those that require exporting) etc etc.
Looking at your numbers I can see at a glance that they're too even. I think you've based the numbers on how much p0 materials are needed or some such rubbish.
If you don't see that it's rubbish apply your technique to mining. All mining produces the same m3 per time spent so by your methodology all ore would be worth the same per cubic metre.
********************************************
Jenkins! Chap with wings. Five rounds rapid.
********************************************
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.05 04:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Darthion Illys
Flame
Could you please get off my ****? I'm pretty tired of your slobbering up and down my knob all the time.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Asik Rova
Manufact Co.
X-Non
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Posted - 2010.07.05 04:24:00 -
[14]
I will ask my CEO to post how he calculated it. We are trying to figure out the good mix between the different refines for a good sense of projected prices.
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Quantessa
Amarr
TOG Empire
DRACONIAN COVENANT
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Posted - 2010.07.05 04:39:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Quantessa on 05/07/2010 04:39:42
mispost sorry
********************************************
Jenkins! Chap with wings. Five rounds rapid.
********************************************
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Ari Chu
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.07.05 04:50:00 -
[16]
Vaccines can be built on a single planet and are a component of one of the easier P4's to build, Nuclear Reactors require Three Planets and are a component of one of the hardest and most widely used P4's.
Pretty sure that, at the very least, your prices of these 2 items are switched. But, to be honest, overall I'd say that your "low end" P1's are probably about right - but your "high end" are half the price they should be.
In reality - If your final numbers are right - then PI really will be a bust, as far as I'm concerned. POS shooting will become that much more of a hassle because we'll know that we're spending hours shooting something that is virtually worthless.
---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.05 16:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 05/07/2010 16:43:30
Originally by: Asik Rova
I will not go into the math behind it
Your figures are useless without details of your protocol (the maths) and just as importantly the justifications for each decision.
I think your've over valued p0 by a factor of 10. They are essential worthless because of the import duty to process them. You've under valued everything else.
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Vasaczk
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Posted - 2010.07.06 00:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Cost of any PI raw extract goes as follows:
X = Plex Cost/ 43,200 minutes / 3
Y = Total Amount Raw PI Materials Extracted per minute
X/Y
Value, otoh, is much harder to figure.
Why are you dividing by three? I know it'll be something simple, i'm just having a moment...
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ChrisIsherwood
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Posted - 2010.07.06 00:52:00 -
[19]
Caveat: PI may have been redefined twice before some of the NPC stockpiles run out.
But eventually I do not see why, despite differences in # of planets, that all R0/P1 are about the same? Why won't there be a web site like the "most profitable datacore"? So someone who is ready to drop a CC sees Base Metals are 1.77, Reactive gas 2.4. I think people would prefer 2.4 and so will keep increasing the supply and increasing extraction depletion of RG until they equilibrate. And the herd moves on to the next FOTM. It's not like you can plant your flag, Eddie Izzard style, to claim the land. There is no reason why if 30% of the planets are type X, that 80% of the extractors might be on that planet type until the price comes down?
I just think it comes down to ISK/hour of mindless clicking. What am I missing?
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Asik Rova
Manufact Co.
X-Non
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Posted - 2010.07.06 01:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 05/07/2010 16:43:30
Originally by: Asik Rova
I will not go into the math behind it
Your figures are useless without details of your protocol (the maths) and just as importantly the justifications for each decision.
I think your've over valued p0 by a factor of 10. They are essential worthless because of the import duty to process them. You've under valued everything else.
Again my CEO is behind the math. I will ask him again to post it on the forum for some constructive criticism. Everything needs to be refined and reworked.
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
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Posted - 2010.07.06 03:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
But eventually I do not see why, despite differences in # of planets, that all R0/P1 are about the same? Why won't there be a web site like the "most profitable datacore"? So someone who is ready to drop a CC sees Base Metals are 1.77, Reactive gas 2.4. I think people would prefer 2.4 and so will keep increasing the supply and increasing extraction depletion of RG until they equilibrate.
Some will always be higher cost, albeit not necessarily a better thing to produce. Many P2s can be produced on a single planet. These items are easier to produce as there is much less hauling required. Some cannot, and require P1 results to be hauled around to make the P2. Silicate Glass are one example, polyaramids another. These items should always end up being more costly (once stockpiles are exhausted) than their easier to produce (with less hauling) equivalents.
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menacemyth
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Posted - 2010.07.06 06:31:00 -
[22]
The real question is what is guiding your valuations? Should control towers cost 150mil or 350 mil ore 750 mil? should stations cost 2 bil? How low should we go before people realize there is no floor to this market.
And are you willing to allow big alliances to buy up everything when it's cheap reducing your work to minimum wage? LOLZ
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.07.06 07:19:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Cost of any PI raw extract goes as follows:
X = Plex Cost/ 43,200 minutes / 3
Y = Total Amount Raw PI Materials Extracted per minute
X/Y
Value, otoh, is much harder to figure.
Wouldn't this imply there are sentient beings doing that?
Because in my limited experience at seeing how people prize their time vs cost, this is not a safe assumption at all.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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ChrisIsherwood
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Posted - 2010.07.06 08:00:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Cost of any PI raw extract goes as follows:
X = Plex Cost/ 43,200 minutes / 3
Y = Total Amount Raw PI Materials Extracted per minute
X/Y
Value, otoh, is much harder to figure.
Wouldn't this imply there are sentient beings doing that?
Because in my limited experience at seeing how people prize their time vs cost, this is not a safe assumption at all.
I thought it was implying that naughty people using naughty software would do so until 3 char slots for 23 hours a day for 30 days a month would pay for a plex. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.06 15:02:00 -
[25]
That guy's PI Sheet has flaws in it. Take it with a grain of salt. I've messaged him about them but they still remain so meh...
And Shar is right (almost  ) I tend to think this..
((Plex / 720)/((Total number extracted units an hour * 96) * 6) = P0 Price.
For me right now, Ionic Solutions for the 96 hour option I can harvest about 350 per extracts. On 10 Planets, I have 16-18 Extractors. So that's 56,000 an hour (low), So across the month I'll get about 32,256,000 or 37,632,000 units. (Averaged 34,944,000)
300,000,000 mil for the PLEX / 35,000,000 = 8.58 ISK for Ionic Solutions. Where as Oxygen when I harvested it, it was = 3.49 ISK. Now across 3 characters it would be 2.36 ISK a unit. So maybe this is as good as it'll get, 6 times a month for the 96 hour option. Harvest and dump. The problem is... Datacores where used as the Passive PLEX income. This is an ADDITION to Datacores.
So prices might not get that high and Datacores could come down in price as PI supplement it.
Amarr for Life |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.07.06 16:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: SencneS
And Shar is right (almost ) I tend to think this.
I was just pointing people's minds in the right direction. A fairer calculation would also include such things as: R&D Agents: 687.69 MechEng RP/day 648.81 Quantum RP/day 430.08 Hydromg RP/day Then I would add in what I'm currently running in PI (only one toon so far) which is: 682,360 Aqueous Liquids 91,376 Autotrophs 78,656 Complex Organisms 94,040 Felsic Magma 1,123,040 Ionic Solutions 70,056 Non-CS Chrystals 240,888 Suspended Plasma This is accomplished simply with this routine (per day). Log in, set 30 minute jobs, total time 10 minutes. Check evemails, check journals, redo 30 minute jobs after 20 minutes. Continue checking things out and then set 5 hr job after that last 20 minute batch. Come back 8 hours later (or if I've got a good day play Eve for 8 hours!) and repeat 30 minutes jobs x 2, then set another 5 hour batch round. IMHO it is not about the amount of time a human is at the computer as Eve is all about "constant" gain/improvement. Thus each minute of every month is spent doing something even if that something is "nothing". However to give myself elasticity I segregate each activity into a vacuum and do "costing" analysis without any additional influence. Thus I figure datacore "costing" by the same formula. It simply gives me my break even point(s) on items I passively (after a fashion) produce.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 17:10:00 -
[27]
Oxygen won't be at 900 for year at least its probably the easiest p2 to make and the stockpiles are close to 380m if we count all regions.It also has limited use.
knowledge is power |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.06 19:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
I was just pointing people's minds in the right direction.
No doubt. Which is why I used the 96 hour model..
Four days of mining max extractors, once a week would be the most lazy approach. I can't recall if it's done yet but I think Ghost Datacore harvests are still in, so I don't know if PI is going to add much. However if it is removed then the most lazy would be.. 96 hour cycle once a week.
Now most optimal would be nothing but extractors going to a launchpad. So P0 items will be sold by these people. These people could care less what they get for it. So it comes down to the most popular planets... Now... I did some crazy stuff to find out which planets would be "worthy" I've touched every type of planet and kinda came up with the most "optimal" setup you could possible want as an "AFK-Harvester"
So for 5 planets, 3 of them are harvesting the 1 P0 item that is only on their planet. Autotrophs, Felsic Magma, Reactive Gas. Whats next? Complex Organisms, Ionic Solutions, Noble Metals, Non-Cs Crystals, Planktic Colonies. Well Complex Organisms, Ionic Solutions, and Non-Cs Crystals where covered by the other 3 you already have. So we're missing Noble Metals and Planktic Colonies. Plasma gives Noble Metals and does does Barren but Barren's others P0 items are not as Rare and Plasmas. Plasma also gives more Non-CS's. Same for Oceanic planets. I need the PColonies, which Ice could give me, but Oceanic also gives me Complex Organisms, it's more "rare" then what Ice can give me.
If you assign each P0 a value according to how many planets it's available on. Add up each planets P0 You get this.
Barren--------20
Gas-----------17
Ice-----------18
Lava----------14
Oceanic-------17
Plasma--------15
Storm---------19
Temperate-----16
This makes Lava more valuable as it houses a lower value of P0 items. This makes Ice, Storm and Barren not really needed. However... there is a caveat here. Barren supplies Noble Metal in much larger supply then Plasma. So it's a Drawback. I can see people dumping the Plasma and going to Barren for the Noble Metals but I think that would be it. You can't dump Oceanic for Ice because you need it for Planktic Colonies. And Storm... So This makes sense.
All up the "optimal" configuration for the AFK-Harvester would be.
First you want to mind the "Rarer" stuff but have options available to you without effort of changing planets.
So here is the AFK-Harvesters Setup.
1 Barren
1 Gas
1 Lava
1 Oceanic
1 Temperate
(IF Skilled to 6 planets)
Another Gas planet.
Why?
That combination allows you to harvest every single PI item. Working off the 5 planet setup. See I'm a big believer in spreading out, covering as many bases as possible. I can imagine something like Ionic Solutions being harvested on multiple planets by an AFK-Harvester but if they all did it, it would crash the market. So spreading your options out is a good idea. This doesn't mean you will focus on ALL P0, but you want the option just in case.
This makes Plasma planets, even though it's lowest availability and it's second lowest P0 value. It makes it useless to the AFK-Harvester. As the only reason to choose a Plasma planet is Noble Metals, as every P0 it produces another planet produces it better, apart from Suspended Plasma, but Lava does a good job of that, not enough to warrant keeping it over a big Noble Metal producing Barren.
P0 itself, I've seen as low as 325 and as high as 510 in highsec for the 96 hour option. Not much of a spread considering the popular 5 hour option I've seen as low as 700 and as high as 1550 per cycle. So it doesn't really matter which one if we go with 375 per extractor.
We get on average - 6,000 units per planet, per hour. That's 11,520,000 Units a month total. That's not much so it's not going to be the exclusive PLEX Harvester occupation, Datacores is still King there :)
Amarr for Life |
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