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Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.07 19:11:00 - [1] Edited by: Ci''Fera on 07/07/2010 19:22:15 To the concord organisation on behalf of Worlds without boundaries. We ask that you release 3 hulls of civilian downgrade. Frigat, Cruiser, Battleship. We ask this because: Not all organisations can rely on concord protection but wish to see the moral boost of your ships in their area. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other ship examples first. the Nightmare: can have near 200% laser damage bonus if not over with all skills at 5/ implants + tracking The Bhaalgorn: can have near 150-175% laser damage with the same + neuts + stasis the Macherial: can have roughly 75% DPS total bonus and 50% range bonus with level 5 skills and a nasty nano the Vindicator has roughly 55-75% hybrid damage: and then 50% velocity of stasis per level Navy Raven: just an extra launcher [overall] Navy Apoc: looks realy nice: more armor Fleet Tempest: +1gun --> Adendum, Only 6 guns even on the fleet tempest. Navy Mega: More Drones ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Specifications of ideal release as follows. "SKILLS" --BS-- Tertiary Spaceship Command 1 Caldari: Frig--4 Amarr: Frig---4 Gallente: Frig-4 Minmatar: Frig4 secondary Space Ship Command 3 Caldari: Cruiser--4 Amarr: Cruiser---4 Gallente: Cruiser-4 Minmatar: Cruiser4 Primary Spaceship Command 4 Caldari: Battleship--3 Amarr: Battleship---3 Gallente: Battleship-3 Minmatar: Battleship3 --Cruiser-- Tertiary Spaceship command 1 secondary Caldari: Frig--4 Amarr: Frig---4 Gallente: Frig-4 Minmatar: Frig4 Primary Spaceship command 3 Caldari: Cruiser--3 Amarr: Cruiser---3 Gallente: Cruiser-3 Minmatar: Cruiser3 --Frig-- Tertiary Spaceship command 3 secondary Evasive maneuvering 4 Primary Caldari: Frig--3 Amarr: Frig---3 Gallente: Frig-3 Minmatar: Frig3 ------------------ Slot Configuration Battleship: 8 High, 7 Mid, 4 Low. : 7 turrets 2 launchers : 75m3 drone bay Cruiser: 6 High 5 Mid 2 Low : 5 turrets 2 launchers: 25m3 drone bay Frigit: 4 High 4 mid 1 low : 2 turrets 2 launchers : no drones Bonuses Battleship: Cloaked Velocity per level, all racial turret 5% damage per level and 5% shield resistance per level. Cruiser: Cloaked velocity per level, 5% max speed per level, 5% shield resistances per level. Frigat: Cloaked Velocity per level, 20% Stasis range per level, 15% Sensor strength per level. Role: A solo ship able to go behind enemy lines, boasting a modest amount of firepower compared to most hulls of size they would be highly prized for their rare ability, expensive in the near billion or hundred million regions, and the ability to evade detection for prolong periods of time. Role Class: Black Ops Best Tank: Shields Imagine: a Cruiser hull comes into grid and you both are in the instance of 1 on 1; he could be using lasers he could be using blasters he could even be using autoguns or EWAR; you cant tell what the ship is using without taking the time to scan down their fit; look really closely at their hull with your camera or wait till they fire first; in all aspects this adds an "unknown" element to combat; is he covert fit; mission fit; pvp fit; what are his weapons? what are his optimal ranges? this adds more aspects to take into consideration than the favorite "its a drake we know exactly what hes using" [unless you a smart drake pilot wink ]or a brutix "we know hes using blasters and speed with drones" the myrmadon is a excellent example: it can nano it can shield tank it can armor tank; but best of all it can use any weapon type without worries of losing out on ship bonus. Your Worlds Without Boundaries Public Relations Officer: Ci'Fera
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.07 19:20:00 - [2] ----SHIELDS AND WHY---- Shields; PVPers hate them; mission runners love them; but why? Answer: To PVP you need a tackle; these modules require middle slots; Shields require middle slots; result? less tank. Q: So why are you saying shields on these ships; shouldn't armor be better? A: Yes for PVP armor is generally better [for PVP ]; but if these ships were armor tankers; they would have a to far advantage in PVP over other ships. Q: Dont we want a great advantage? A: Yes but then balance comes into play and then the ship is too "overpowered" Q: OK balance, but isn't concord all races? A: Yes; but in terms of this They are able to use all race weapons and retain the high technology level of superior shields [as shields are more advanced than armor plating if thats not obvious ] Q: But wait isnt self regenerating armor highly advanced and isk saving on repairs? A: Yes but if you look at it; shields can take far greater sustained punishment than armor. Quote "Armor tanking makes me awesome at PVP because i can tackle and tank and nano at the same time :D" This is exactly why shields would be better to avoid overpowering the ships; if you want to mission in them you don't need to sacrifice anything and worry about the consequences; if your going PVP be forewarned you lose a portion of your safety to go after and kill someone. General Reason: If you want to PVP, Sacrifice some of your protection, Armor tanking nano domi's with drones neuts/blasters and tackle that are relativity cheap to fit and are seen everywhere Lets stop and make experienced pilots think about what they are going to do Lasers: good damage nice ROF/ cap suckers Projectiles: high damage low ROF/ power-grid suckers Hybrids: moderate damage moderate ROF/ moderate cap sucking Effects on shield tankers Lasers: Cap-drain [AKA Nightmare syndrome] Solution: Focus on capacitor skills/ fit accordingly Projectiles: Power-grid drain Solution: power-grid skills/ fit accordingly Hybrids: moderate damage/ moderate cap drain Solution: damage mods/ skills Q: Hybrids seem to work the best? A: The downside to Hybrids are the ranges they operate at; to hit anything up close you would need to use blasters; but as soon as your target gets at range; blasters become useless, Rail-guns are the opposite of blasters and become worthless at close up. [projectiles are the same Autoguns/howitzers] Q: what about lasers? A: while beam lasers can theoretically operate at long and short ranges and so can Pulse lasers: they drain a substantial amount of capacitor from you. Solution: Limited Drone space Reason: Drones can provide intermittent support in those "blind spot" ranges Situation 1: [ in a battleship hull ] optimal: 40km target: 5km - scram frig NPC/Player Drone space: 75m3 Solution: T2 small drones Situation 2: [in a battleship hull ] Optimal: 12km Target: 50km [any target] Drone Space:75m3 Solution: Small/medium T2 drones to support DPS on target. Reason for 75m3 drone space: It allows the use of medium and light; or pilot choice of limited heavy drones without giving to much power on drones keeping the user of said ship focused on his current armament [keeping Dominix Syndrome at bay] Short Explanation: To PVP you sacrifice part of your saftey keeping this ship in balance. Recommended use of ship in PVP: Fire support role with a dedicated tackler [such as a frig] Unrecommended to Solo use. the Frig hull and Cruiser hull fill the role of tackler far better [if it was not obvious with lock time alone] All in all shields would be far more inline than armor tanking said ship hulls. [ unlike you Gallente PVPers http://www.vadimus.com/lolthorax.jpg ] If you disagree with the fact that armor tanking makes PVP much easyer and slightly unfair to ships that can only shield tank [ in terms of being able to solo] Please say why [ logically and the entire process ]and ill revise my statements armor: great-Tank+tackle shields: nerf-tank+tackle WWB PR Officer: Ci'Fera
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.07 21:34:00 - [3] SKILL Time frame 62 days total. for all large weapons and cloak+t1bs lvl3 less per race since some skills are shared, like gunnery 5. with optimal learning for this it goes down to 52 days. 28 million isk total for all skills involving the mentioned above. support skills are not included in this time frame. Judging the need for support skills from start to finish it could possibly be about 90 days to fly up the battleship hull, and factored less on cruiser, being substantially less on the frigat hull. This Post is to talk about Weapon choice and why. My friend aproached me on my thread and asked me "Why not make these ship's Universal?" At first i thought me meant armor tanking; he responded with "No i mean as in no set gun bonus; but have a bonus to all "turreted" weapons" Looking at this form of bonus would apeal to anyone using guns; a minmitar player with spec artilary skills could sit in and use his weapons of choice; while an amarr player can sit in and use his or her beam/pulse lasers to full advantage and on the other end a galente or caldari player could use their hybrid weapons all the same. Q: Wouldn't everyone just use projectiles then for massive DPS? A: The big thing is close range combat; Howitzers tend to have horrid tracking and are only good at range [with huge powergrid issues but very very nice alpha] and Autoguns are great at close range but have very limited falloff. Q: What About lasers? A: Lasers would in fact be a great choice "IF" you have very high capacitor skills, Remember these ships are shield users; energy consumption would be on the high end and risk draining yourself quickly. Lasers dont do nearly as much damage as howitzers but the constant ROF and DPS they provide with high end skills can make them worth the capaciter use. Q: Why not stick with hybrids as you had mentioned? A: Because Hybrid weapons tho are nice are very one sided to extreams; Railguns are so far out and blasters are so close in; it is hard to reach a proper middle gap. Q: Why the multi racial weapon Idea? A: Concord is all 4 races and if a pilot wants to use Projectiles; Energy weapons Or hybrid weapons; this allows advanced players to fully customize their ships to deal the weapons they have trained so long to get. Imagine: a Cruiser hull comes into grid and you both are in the instance of 1 on 1; he could be using lasers he could be using blasters he could even be using autoguns or EWAR; you cant tell what the ship is using without taking the time to scan down their fit; look really closely at their hull with your camera or wait till they fire first; in all aspects this adds an "unknown" element to combat; is he covert fit; mission fit; pvp fit; what are his weapons? what are his optimal ranges? this adds more aspects to take into consideration than the favorite "its a drake we know exactly what hes using" [unless you a smart drake pilot wink ]or a brutix "we know hes using blasters and speed with drones" the myrmadon is a excellent example: it can nano it can shield tank it can armor tank; but best of all it can use any weapon type without worries of losing out on ship bonus. in short: training the 4 races ships is a must; but you should have the ability to use the weapons you love and have worked hard for; be it artillery autoguns lasers or hybrids or missiles. Now please, Post questions or ideas and i will respond accordingly on behalf the Worlds Without Boundaries science division.
Animora	Posted - 2010.07.07 22:17:00 - [4] While I do hate cloakers, these seem like balanced well thought out ships. It would be fun to fly some concord ships intead of getting shot at by them for a change. Now we just need some names...
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.07.07 22:20:00 - [5] While this is a somewhat reasonable suggestion, I feel you may have put this in the wrong forum. -----
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.07 22:36:00 - [6] as a response to names i think these would sound appropriate. Frig: Jiskista Cruiser: Rayania BS: Trident Of course you can post names that seem appropriate below and ill keep a list on hand of each name for hull posted, if you have any ideas also please post andi will relay them to the Worlds Without Boundaries Science team, thank you.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2010.07.07 22:40:00 - [7] so... your request is for the DED to release a "downgraded" version of their hardware to the general capsuleer population... and then you proceed to define exactly what these ships should be called, how they should function and what their hardware loadouts should be? I think you're A) failing to grasp the intent of this board and B) failing to grasp something important about the process of refitting a ship that already exists. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.07 23:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Stitcher so... your request is for the DED to release a "downgraded" version of their hardware to the general capsuleer population... and then you proceed to define exactly what these ships should be called, how they should function and what their hardware loadouts should be? I think you're A) failing to grasp the intent of this board and B) failing to grasp something important about the process of refitting a ship that already exists. You appear to be saying everything i have stated as a demand, i posted my thoughts and the thoughts of others together into an equation to attempt to bring something to the capsular, anything stated is open to change: if your not here to help your here to cause trouble. and your not helping currently.
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.07 23:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Andreus LeHane While this is a somewhat reasonable suggestion, I feel you may have put this in the wrong forum. Actually on several suggestions i was asked to present this to the people; an older version of this can be already found in ideas and discussion, there were request's to move it here instead.
James Vayne	Posted - 2010.07.07 23:44:00 - [10] Frig: Affidavit Cruiser: Roscoe Battleship: Hook ((all policing terms, names for ships should have reference to actual theme).
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.07 23:48:00 - [11] Originally by: James Vayne Frig: Affidavit Cruiser: Roscoe Battleship: Hook ((all policing terms, names for ships should have reference to actual theme). I like them, but can someone please go into detail on what these terms mean? thank you for the input.
James Vayne	Posted - 2010.07.07 23:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Andreus LeHane While this is a somewhat reasonable suggestion, I feel you may have put this in the wrong forum. ((She's making an in-character request of an in-character corporation in-characterly. Describe to me how posting it in the in-character forum is in anyway incorrect?))
Cybersmith Bonecaster	Posted - 2010.07.07 23:52:00 - [13] trolls asaide I like most of what you have posted The bonus to all gun types would make fitting this kind of ship FUN. Think of it, having 2 types of guns fitted to max your DPS-Cap. Going full lasers would suck your cap dry. If you mounted 2-3 arties you would gain alpha, lose some overall DPS but become cap stable. If you ran laser-hybrid you could fill the range hole and still matain good DPS I also like the shields Only one race fully uses shilds. Time more shield ship to be made that can PVP without having to build them as gimp armor tank Good work keep it up BUMP CB
James Vayne	Posted - 2010.07.07 23:56:00 - [14] Originally by: Ci'Fera Originally by: James Vayne Frig: Affidavit Cruiser: Roscoe Battleship: Hook ((all policing terms, names for ships should have reference to actual theme). I like them, but can someone please go into detail on what these terms mean? thank you for the input. ((Roscoe: A gun. Affidavit: Written statement confirmed by oath Hook: to arrest or tow a car)))
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.08 00:17:00 - [15] The only ships meant to shield tank in all honesty are the caldari, and sparse matari ships, Sansha seems to armor tank but in reality they should be shield tanked due to slot layout. Shield Tanks Caldari/Guristas Sansha Partial Minmatar/angel ----------- Armor Tank Amarr Amatar Khanid Serpentis Gallente Blood Raiders Partial Minmatar/ Angel the overall ratio is staggering for example in capital ships: 3 of 4 armor tank. Ships that are not meant to armor tank are forced too because there is little support from the fleet for shields. In ratios of survivability: a Shield tanking fleet can sustain far greater amounts of damage than a armor tanking fleet. But the offset is capacitor, it takes nearly two times as much energy to run shields.
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.08 00:22:00 - [16] ((Roscoe: A gun. Affidavit: Written statement confirmed by oath Hook: to arrest or tow a car)) Wouldn't Hook be better for the frigate and Roscoe for the battleship? In personal opinion i think that would be more appropriate.
Jocliutzak	Posted - 2010.07.08 00:37:00 - [17] I'm all for a few new ships and this seems like its pretty well thought out. And I also support the remodeling (alal scorpion remodel) of a few older ships for example the Moa.
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.08 00:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Jocliutzak I'm all for a few new ships and this seems like its pretty well thought out. And I also support the remodeling (alal scorpion remodel) of a few older ships for example the Moa. When you look at all the ships; theres really only few variety, T2 is just a repainted hull and T3 is the only hull that you get to chose several variations of personal like or performance: at an exorbitant cost and loss of skills if it dies. the CONCORD organisation should show faith in law abiding corporations and award those who work with them on the fight with terrorism and crime.
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Aureus Mashtori Auxilia	Posted - 2010.07.08 07:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Stitcher so... your request is for the DED to release a "downgraded" version of their hardware to the general capsuleer population... and then you proceed to define exactly what these ships should be called, how they should function and what their hardware loadouts should be? I think you're A) failing to grasp the intent of this board and B) failing to grasp something important about the process of refitting a ship that already exists. To be quite honest Verin, I couldn't have said that any better myself. And no I didn't just quote this for randoms sake, the man has a bloody good point. Do you REALLY, HONESTLY think the DED would declassify even a third of the material that gives them their edge over us? Some people, I really do not understand them. Originally by: Solen Sean Innocence proves nothing
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.08 08:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Math'ra Hiede To be quite honest Verin, I couldn't have said that any better myself. And no I didn't just quote this for randoms sake, the man has a bloody good point. Do you REALLY, HONESTLY think the DED would declassify even a third of the material that gives them their edge over us? Some people, I really do not understand them. Well In all honesty, Civilian versions of the navy ships are released and still do not stand a chance versus the normal navy ships. IE Raven, Navy Raven, State Raven. none of those can match the Caldari Raven captains on star gates. so yes. a Downgraded version would hold no edge over the normal DED CONCORD ships.
Math'ra Hiede Amarr Aureus Mashtori Auxilia	Posted - 2010.07.08 08:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Ci'Fera Originally by: Math'ra Hiede To be quite honest Verin, I couldn't have said that any better myself. And no I didn't just quote this for randoms sake, the man has a bloody good point. Do you REALLY, HONESTLY think the DED would declassify even a third of the material that gives them their edge over us? Some people, I really do not understand them. Well In all honesty, Civilian versions of the navy ships are released and still do not stand a chance versus the normal navy ships. IE Raven, Navy Raven, State Raven. none of those can match the Caldari Raven captains on star gates. so yes. a Downgraded version would hold no edge over the normal DED CONCORD ships. While your point is at least somewhat valid, I have seen the Factions ships dealt with in succinct manor by Capsuleer vessels quite easily before, so its not entirely accurate. As for the comparison to the DED starships... well the comparisons are close to chalk and cheese, not only are the CONCORD vessels capable of maneuvers that even we cannot hope to perform, their lethality and defences are derived from Jove tech if memory serves, and to give even a small portion of that to the most consistently lethal and brutal murderers in the galaxy is a recipe disaster. So, your enthusiasm is noted, but your execution of the idea is fundamentally flawed. Originally by: Solen Sean Innocence proves nothing
Ci'Fera Caldari Worlds Without Boundaries	Posted - 2010.07.08 09:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Math'ra Hiede Well In all honesty, Civilian versions of the navy ships are released and still do not stand a chance versus the normal navy ships. IE Raven, Navy Raven, State Raven. none of those can match the Caldari Raven captains on star gates. so yes. a Downgraded version would hold no edge over the normal DED CONCORD ships. While your point is at least somewhat valid, I have seen the Factions ships dealt with in succinct manor by Capsuleer vessels quite easily before, so its not entirely accurate. As for the comparison to the DED starships... well the comparisons are close to chalk and cheese, not only are the CONCORD vessels capable of maneuvers that even we cannot hope to perform, their lethality and defences are derived from Jove tech if memory serves, and to give even a small portion of that to the most consistently lethal and brutal murderers in the galaxy is a recipe disaster. So, your enthusiasm is noted, but your execution of the idea is fundamentally flawed. If you want to point out jove influence on technology, Angel cartel ships maneuvers are far superior to any other and it is mentioned of jove designe. once again Downgraded "Civilian" [ much like police cars] are striped down to the bulkheads and standard plating with a fresh paint job and sold. they have none of the ability as the in service models and stand zero chance versus the real thing in combat.

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