EVE Search - To CCP Devs: two fixes required to keep longtime players

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

To CCP Devs: two fixes required to keep longtime players

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Voidsleeper	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:00:00 - [1] Enough people have posted on the difficulties in fleet warfare right now. It also seems as if the developers don't understand what players mean when they talk of "lag". Here are the two symptoms of the problem that should be on the highest priority of fixes currently, or they will continue to be responsible for the loss of more long-time players. Your head of game operations should be aware that long time subscribers are leaving even if the numbers are being boosted overall by new players. 1. Grid Loading Losses Prior to Dominion. If a player failed to load or took five minutes to load, they would not be available in system for other players to shoot. The biggest failure of dominion was that a player could be stuck loading grid, and ALSO be killed by other players who have loaded. This has KILLED sov warfare in 0.0, as no one wants to lose more ships pointlessly. 2. Non-determinism Prior to Dominion, a heavily loaded system still resolved events synchronously. It may take two minutes, but if a player activated modules in a certain sequence, they would eventually activate on the server in that sequence. Post Tyrannis, events have now become obviously non-deterministic. Some modules don't activate at all, others activate out of sequence, and atomic events like logging out in space, or cynoing out of system do not complete. Together, these make the 0.0 game not REWARDING to play. All players understand that game performance will degrade as more players are active. No one understands how the core events engine can suddenly no longer resolve events synchronously. That is what we need fixed immediately.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 08/07/2010 17:05:40 Yeah, the lag, desync and other performance issues fixes have been in the drawer for some time now. Thanks to you mentioning it, CCP will implement it tomorrow.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:10:00 - [3] I have reduced my active subscriptions from four to two until this issue is resolved and am likely to cancel the remaining two if there is not so much as a glimmer of light at the end of this tunnel in the next six months. It has been seven months since Dominion and instead of Tyrannis having some rider patch to address the game mechanic issues, it has only made them worse, which is almost unfathomable from a design standpoint that a developer could let something this game breaking linger on in consecutive expansions. This coupled with the CCP developers cavalier and brazen attitude towards its subscriber base in the recent CSM summit have made me feel like they are only adding insult to injury. I can and will spend my money elsewhere if I feel like the developer of this game feels entitled to my money rather than privileged to be receiving it monthly. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Dorian Wylde	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Voidsleeper It also seems as if the developers don't understand what players mean when they talk of "lag". This is where your argument fails.

CCP Zymurgist Gallente C C P	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:43:00 - [5] You may be interested in reading about our progress in helping improve fleet lag in this Dev Blog. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us

TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:49:00 - [6] Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 08/07/2010 17:57:14 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 08/07/2010 17:50:02 Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 08/07/2010 17:49:51 Originally by: CCP Zymurgist You may be interested in reading about our progress in helping improve fleet lag in this Dev Blog. Dear god... Thats about client lag. It has nothing to do with the massive server problems , and server lag that results from fleet fights. The client can get some choppy fps and memory issues, but its the dam servers thats the critical problem, with no one being able too shoot, jump, warp, and when you do jump out, you re-appear back in the system you jump out of. From the blog itself: Quote: All the changes mentioned in this blog are client-side only, and will not solve any server-client lag that might exist. Server client lag is the most crippling problem, and has killed all sov warfare and stagnated null sec completely. Large-scale fleet fights which ccp advertises in their promo videos are impossible. Its all about :wulfpax: now. I appreciate the client lag efforts, and thats nice, but we havent seen a single damned update on the actual server lag part, which is millions of times worse than the client lagging. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:58:00 - [7] Edited by: Mendolus on 08/07/2010 17:58:51 That's all fine and well that the issue of module lag and fleet lag overall which has obviously degraded over time has been addressed, but it says nothing of the grid loading issues, if the client were clogged up with old hanging references (i.e. unbound news clogging the virtual memory cache) thus not allowing the GC to collect, that would not explain why turning off the game application, restarting it, and attempting to log back in does not result in grid load into the system after jumping, meanwhile the ships have landed on the other side bereft of any player at the helm and are being pelted by the hostile fleet. Edit: TheLordofAll beat me to it! {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2010.07.08 17:59:00 - [8] I don't think you have the faintest clue what Determinism means. -----
Albetta	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:03:00 - [9] I just want to say first and foremost that i love EVE. That is why i complain. If i didn't, i would just quit. But CCP, c'mon, the next expansion is going to be updated avatars. I think you can put that on hold for a few months to fix all this bloody lag. What you stressed at fanfest was "higher quality, less features". What happened to that?
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:04:00 - [10] Any other longtime players getting sick of the sense of entitlement 0.0 dwellers have? CCP has been trying to keep you guys happy for years now while neglecting the majority of the playerbase, and not only has isk been heaped on you time and time again, but you never shut up about lag caused by your goddamned blobs and have CCP dedicating way too much time to it already. Everytime the server can handle it, you bring hundreds more, and lag the server again. This will continue as long as you keep bringing as many people as you possibly can, no matter what CCP does. To most people this would be obvious, but it's lost on your average 0.0 dweller who thinks the universe and CCP revolves around them. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai I don't think you have the faintest clue what Determinism means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic I think he got it spot on personally. If you click your mouse once on two separate modules in order to activate them, and one activates, and the other does not, there's obviously a causal break at play in the code somewhere down the line be it thread death, hang, or lock and more than likely the former, as it seems the command to activate a module neither succeeds nor fails but simply never hits the floor running to begin with. I would place very good money on asynchronous thread execution myself, with one event executing code that locks out the other, but the other executes before the first can lock, and then both execute but only one reaches the finish line since it has the resources and the other does not, even as it attempts to execute, as opposed to how it should work, the first locks the second until completion then the second executes. I have to admit problems like these are NOT at all fun to troubleshoot and I can only imagine the nightmare the developers must be having in rooting out said problems, but c'mon... more than a half a year later and we are still fighting the same losing battle with the grid load monster. Not entertaining, at all. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
FunzzeR Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:13:00 - [12] Do what I did, stop flying in blobs or fleets. Solo pvp is the best pvp. PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!! THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!!
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Albetta I just want to say first and foremost that i love EVE. That is why i complain. If i didn't, i would just quit. Exactly. Change does not come to those who sit and say, "whatever". Originally by: Albetta But CCP, c'mon, the next expansion is going to be updated avatars. I think you can put that on hold for a few months to fix all this bloody lag. What you stressed at fanfest was "higher quality, less features". What happened to that? Well said. Best regards, Windjammer
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Any other longtime players getting sick of the sense of entitlement 0.0 dwellers have? CCP has been trying to keep you guys happy for years now while neglecting the majority of the playerbase, and not only has isk been heaped on you time and time again, but you never shut up about lag caused by your goddamned blobs and have CCP dedicating way too much time to it already. Everytime the server can handle it, you bring hundreds more, and lag the server again. This will continue as long as you keep bringing as many people as you possibly can, no matter what CCP does. To most people this would be obvious, but it's lost on your average 0.0 dweller who thinks the universe and CCP revolves around them. You are arguing one point to disprove another here. The FLEET LAG issue, where CCP introduces more server capacity as was the case with the Jita system, IS player induced problem, insofar as even when they raise the cap in Jita to X, suddenly X+100 people want to get into Jita the moment after DT. The GRID LOAD issue, where CCP introduced some sort of game breaking mechanic into the server-client relationship is NOT a player induced problem, as even now reports are coming in of small scale engagements post-Tyrannis that are having the same issue that large scale engagements have had, whereas fleets in the order of double digits or less are not loading the grid upon jumping into a system. The reason this is not player induced can be traced empirically as far back as the D-GTMI battle at the end of January of this year. -A-/UK had a fleet of a few hundred capitals loaded into D-GTMI prior to the engagement, local was at 700 at the time I believe. CVA attempts to cyno in a fleet of less than 200 capitals, and jump a conventional fleet of about 300 in through a stargate. The capital fleet experienced GRID LOAD failure, the conventional fleet experienced FLEET LAG for a period of about 4-5 minutes on average. Local spikes to 1200 and at this time, while the CVA capital fleet has by my understanding NO pilots in control of their ships as reports at the time were of 100% dead loss, an Atlas conventional sniping BS fleet of 200 or so jumps in through a stargate from F9 and experiences no FLEET LAG or GRID LOAD issues whatsoever according to reports. Now please explain to me, how it is not game breaking that a capital fleet, which can only arrive in system via non-conventional means, is supposed to participate in any fleet engagements in this game, with the assurance that the game client will not hose at any given time? Do not tell us we are doing it to ourselves until you look at the facts, friend. There are obviously two major issues going on with the server-client relationship atm, one is FLEET LAG which is client side only, another is GRID LOAD which seems to be server side only. Most 0.0 dwellers have long since gotten used to or adapted to FLEET LAG as best as possible, I even wrote a blog entry on it myself, on how to decrease FLEET LAG prior to a capital engagement, but GRID LOAD is a beast of a different color, and we have every right to find fault with a game that advertises CAPITAL FLEET engagements in nearly every promotional piece they ever put out, when those engagements are impossible at this time, without the near certainty that one side or the other is going to get royally screwed into the ground with no rhyme or reason. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Batolemaeus Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Mendolus FLEET LAG which is client side only Please explain to me how network latency is client side only. I'm very curious.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:32:00 - [16] Edited by: Mendolus on 08/07/2010 18:32:35 Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Mendolus FLEET LAG which is client side only Please explain to me how network latency is client side only. I'm very curious. I said FLEET LAG, not NETWORK LAG, amazing, you are curious enough to read the parts you want and quote them out of context but not so curious as to actually read what representatives from the company itself are saying about FLEET LAG. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist You may be interested in reading about our progress in helping improve fleet lag in this Dev Blog. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Batolemaeus Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:37:00 - [17] Yes, i'm well aware you said lag. Which is why I'm still curious how that is supposed to have any kind of relevance to my client. Please explain.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Batolemaeus Yes, i'm well aware you said lag. Which is why I'm still curious how that is supposed to have any kind of relevance to my client. Please explain. Why don't you go read the link provided by the CCP rep and then we'll talk about how it relates to your client, until then you're just blowing hot air up my *** and I don't appreciate it. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:44:00 - [19] Edited by: Libin Herobi on 08/07/2010 18:44:28 Originally by: Mendolus Originally by: Batolemaeus Yes, i'm well aware you said lag. Which is why I'm still curious how that is supposed to have any kind of relevance to my client. Please explain. Why don't you go read the link provided by the CCP rep and then we'll talk about how it relates to your client, until then you're just blowing hot air up my *** and I don't appreciate it. So my client will now use a couple hundred MB less memory and have about 10 FPS more. How is that helping with module lag grid loading failure node crashes extreme rubberbanding
TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:47:00 - [20] He already said its server/fleet lag thats the problem with grids not loading etc. Its affecting all facets of pvp now, even small roaming gangs thanks to ccp's craptastic coding and it only gets worse. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Libin Herobi Edited by: Libin Herobi on 08/07/2010 18:44:28 Originally by: Mendolus Originally by: Batolemaeus Yes, i'm well aware you said lag. Which is why I'm still curious how that is supposed to have any kind of relevance to my client. Please explain. Why don't you go read the link provided by the CCP rep and then we'll talk about how it relates to your client, until then you're just blowing hot air up my *** and I don't appreciate it. So my client will now use a couple hundred MB less memory and have about 10 FPS more. How is that helping with module lag grid loading failure node crashes extreme rubberbanding Never said it would, or is this question directed at CCP and not me? {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Batolemaeus Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Mendolus Why don't you go read the link provided by the CCP rep and then we'll talk about how it relates to your client, until then you're just blowing hot air up my *** and I don't appreciate it. I have a better proposal. You stop using the term "lag" until you know what it means. There's a good reason why the term is only used in the Devblog twice. CCP Blaze knows as much as everyone else, that he's touching the Client only and as such has next to nothing to do with lag. This isn't '06 anymore where the network layer and the graphics engine were so entwined that packet loss would lock up rendering.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:53:00 - [23] Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing He already said its server/fleet lag thats the problem with grids not loading etc. Its affecting all facets of pvp now, even small roaming gangs thanks to ccp's craptastic coding and it only gets worse. Yea :( kind of hard to watch 6-7 Titans go up in smoke in a matter of hours thanks to a broken mechanic, sure it was their fault for attempting to jump the fleet in, but the alternative is to ya know... not play the game the way it is advertised, which seems kind of trivial to me that there are an alarming amount of people that keep pointing at blobbing as the sole culprit in this entire thing, as if not playing the game is a solution to enjoying the game... makes sense to me... Kid: Mommy, I bought this ice cream cone from the ice cream guy but it tastes like cardboard and every bite I take makes me gag uncontrollably! Mommy: You already paid for it son, just don't eat it, you can hold it in your hand and enjoy watching it melt though! Kid: What? Mommy: You don't think that's entertaining? You should be happy you have an ice cream cone to stare at and enjoy even if you cannot eat it! Kid: UP YOURS YA **TCH! {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:54:00 - [24] Edited by: Libin Herobi on 08/07/2010 18:54:16 Originally by: Mendolus Originally by: Libin Herobi Edited by: Libin Herobi on 08/07/2010 18:44:28 Originally by: Mendolus Originally by: Batolemaeus Yes, i'm well aware you said lag. Which is why I'm still curious how that is supposed to have any kind of relevance to my client. Please explain. Why don't you go read the link provided by the CCP rep and then we'll talk about how it relates to your client, until then you're just blowing hot air up my *** and I don't appreciate it. So my client will now use a couple hundred MB less memory and have about 10 FPS more. How is that helping with module lag grid loading failure node crashes extreme rubberbanding Never said it would, or is this question directed at CCP and not me? At least 3 of the things I mentioned are related to large fleet fights. You said FLEET LAG (sic) is client side only. So why aren't the client improvements helping with those issues?
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.07.08 18:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Mendolus local was at 700 at the time I believe. CVA attempts to cyno in a fleet of less than 200 capitals, and jump a conventional fleet of about 300 in through a stargate. The capital fleet experienced GRID LOAD failure, the conventional fleet experienced FLEET LAG for a period of about 4-5 minutes on average. Local spikes to 1200 and at this time, while the CVA capital fleet has by my understanding NO pilots in control of their ships as reports at the time were of 100% dead loss, an Atlas conventional sniping BS fleet of 200 or so jumps in through a stargate from F9 and experiences no FLEET LAG or GRID LOAD issues whatsoever according to reports. So, a smaller fleet isn't affected by lag, and gains an advantage over a larger fleet which is. Too bad there's no strategies we can develop with this knowledge, lets just harass CCP about lag. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation	Posted - 2010.07.08 19:01:00 - [26] Edited by: Mendolus on 08/07/2010 19:03:30 Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Mendolus Why don't you go read the link provided by the CCP rep and then we'll talk about how it relates to your client, until then you're just blowing hot air up my *** and I don't appreciate it. I have a better proposal. You stop using the term "lag" until you know what it means. There's a good reason why the term is only used in the Devblog twice. CCP Blaze knows as much as everyone else, that he's touching the Client only and as such has next to nothing to do with lag. This isn't '06 anymore where the network layer and the graphics engine were so entwined that packet loss would lock up rendering. Nothing you say matters one bit until CCP reps stop referring to memory leaks as "Fleet Lag" regardless of whether or not it is just a memory leak on the client side or not, the rep called it fleet lag, that's what it is, after all it is just syntax, I could call a Dog a Cat but it is still a Dog and you'll never know whether I called it a Cat because I thought it was a Cat or because I mixed up the syntax when I meant a Dog. But no, come up with more, let's keep this going for let's see, how about four weeks?, you come up with superfluous remark after remark and I'll keep laughing until CCP rep stops calling a memory leak a fleet lag issue. Amuse me. Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Mendolus local was at 700 at the time I believe. CVA attempts to cyno in a fleet of less than 200 capitals, and jump a conventional fleet of about 300 in through a stargate. The capital fleet experienced GRID LOAD failure, the conventional fleet experienced FLEET LAG for a period of about 4-5 minutes on average. Local spikes to 1200 and at this time, while the CVA capital fleet has by my understanding NO pilots in control of their ships as reports at the time were of 100% dead loss, an Atlas conventional sniping BS fleet of 200 or so jumps in through a stargate from F9 and experiences no FLEET LAG or GRID LOAD issues whatsoever according to reports. So, a smaller fleet isn't affected by lag, and gains an advantage over a larger fleet which is. Too bad there's no strategies we can develop with this knowledge, lets just harass CCP about lag. Grossly incorrect, fleets of different sizes jumped into the same system using different means, and only one of them experienced grid load failure, it was not the largest of the fleets that jumped in either. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Night Epoch Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive	Posted - 2010.07.08 19:08:00 - [27] Edited by: Night Epoch on 08/07/2010 19:14:20 I was in the D-G fight on CVA's side - the 300 man conventional fleet didn't jump in via stargate, we Titan bridged in. Nobody I was on vent with ever loaded the system, let alone the grid. Relogging was impossible, you'd just look at your "Entering Game as ________" loading bar the whole time. CVA's capital fleet cyno'd in and no pilot had any control over their ship whatsoever. Apparently some indeed loaded the system, but nobody had loaded grid. Local was indeed about 700 when the 300 man conventionals gang Bridged in and the 200 man capital fleet cyno'd in. -A- apparently maintained (very laggy) control over their ships the whole time - and so had us in a turkey shoot when we "entered" system (if you can even call it that). I lost my ship while staring at a black loading screen.
Ghaylenty	Posted - 2010.07.08 21:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Night Epoch Edited by: Night Epoch on 08/07/2010 19:14:20 I was in the D-G fight on CVA's side - the 300 man conventional fleet didn't jump in via stargate, we Titan bridged in. Nobody I was on vent with ever loaded the system, let alone the grid. Relogging was impossible, you'd just look at your "Entering Game as ________" loading bar the whole time. CVA's capital fleet cyno'd in and no pilot had any control over their ship whatsoever. Apparently some indeed loaded the system, but nobody had loaded grid. Local was indeed about 700 when the 300 man conventionals gang Bridged in and the 200 man capital fleet cyno'd in. -A- apparently maintained (very laggy) control over their ships the whole time - and so had us in a turkey shoot when we "entered" system (if you can even call it that). I lost my ship while staring at a black loading screen. This sounds like a feature, because the logs don't show anything. i actually fly amarr
Voidsleeper	Posted - 2010.07.08 21:16:00 - [29] Originally by: CCP Zymurgist You may be interested in reading about our progress in helping improve fleet lag in this Dev Blog. Thanks Zymurgist. I had read that, and it is partly why I made the assumption that there is a disconnect between what players are experiencing and calling "lag" and what the devs are concentrating on. I can only repeat, that when players say "lag", they are talking about perceived non-deterministic behavior of their ships, and loses during grid load. In both cases, leading to situations where players have no control over what is happening, and unrewarding gameplay. In all the threads and responses, I've yet to see these two specific issues acknowledged or addressed head on.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.08 21:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Night Epoch Edited by: Night Epoch on 08/07/2010 19:14:20 I was in the D-G fight on CVA's side - the 300 man conventional fleet didn't jump in via stargate, we Titan bridged in. Nobody I was on vent with ever loaded the system, let alone the grid. Relogging was impossible, you'd just look at your "Entering Game as ________" loading bar the whole time. CVA's capital fleet cyno'd in and no pilot had any control over their ship whatsoever. Apparently some indeed loaded the system, but nobody had loaded grid. Local was indeed about 700 when the 300 man conventionals gang Bridged in and the 200 man capital fleet cyno'd in. -A- apparently maintained (very laggy) control over their ships the whole time - and so had us in a turkey shoot when we "entered" system (if you can even call it that). I lost my ship while staring at a black loading screen. As a fellow participant there at holders side, from what i heard on vent i think around 5 caps loaded grid. I never loaded grid, and when i logged in the next day my capital was 30AU from the original cyno location, at probably the location where i cynod out the previous time. (Probably since when i cynod out i was completely desynced).

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.