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Shirei Fenikkusu Knights of the Eternal Flame	Posted - 2010.07.11 04:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Shirei Fenikkusu on 11/07/2010 04:50:42 PLEXs are not like every other in-game item. They are unique and are representative of the $15 someone paid to obtain it. If the in-game PLEX item gets destroyed, that $15 does not get removed from CCP's bank account. PLEXs can be redeemed for game time, thus if one is ever destroyed, CCP will no longer be obligated to provide service in exchange for that PLEX. Consider this situation: What if I undock with a PLEX in my hold in a completely empty system and black screened? How do I know that CCP didn't purposefully make me black screen in order to take my $15 and not have to provide me with the services I paid for? I don't and probably wouldn't care to spend the money to have them investigated properly. Of course, I can always chose not to undock with a PLEX in my hold, but the fact that is still possible just feels wrong. It was one thing when PLEXs being indestructible meant that CCP would always have to provide services equal to the $15 that they received. (once applied that is) It is another when there is a possibility- by CCPs own design -that they won't have to provide their services. DO NOT LET THESE CHANGES BE IMPLEMENTED! -Shirei Fenikkusu EDIT: Any comments about the EULA are irrelevant. It is nothing more than a contract, and cannot supersede the law. If you pay for gametime, CCP is obligated to provide the services you paid for. (Even if it is to another account, that you "traded" your PLEX to.) Any means that can be classed as manipulation by CCP to not provide these services, can be seen as a scam, and thus against the law.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.11 04:51:00 - [2] sick of this crap. reported. Put it in one of the existing threads.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.07.11 04:56:00 - [3] Welcome to the EVE forums, where neckbeards complain about being provided with convenient new features they do not even have to use if they dont want to.
Shiganaru Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:00:00 - [4] Edited by: Shiganaru on 11/07/2010 05:01:35 Originally by: Omara Otawan Welcome to the EVE forums, where neckbeards complain about being provided with convenient new features they do not even have to use if they dont want to. Only convienent for CCP. It's all fun and games, until someone gets a nice loss-mail saying that CCP just stole $15. Other threads were different discussions, I provided a different angle, that although it's not so much directly illegal, it can provide a questionable circumstance in which CCP can be accused of illegal activity. Edit: sigh.....hate it when it defaults to another character. Oh well.
Spades Slick Caldari Rookies Academy Elite The Compass	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:00:00 - [5] File a class-action against CCP, then. Let us know how that works out for you.
Stick Cult Unspoken Autonomy.	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Shiganaru Edited by: Shiganaru on 11/07/2010 05:01:35 Originally by: Omara Otawan Welcome to the EVE forums, where neckbeards complain about being provided with convenient new features they do not even have to use if they dont want to. Only convienent for CCP. It's all fun and games, until someone gets a nice loss-mail saying that CCP just stole $15. Not stealing. If you bought the PLEX with IRL money, and decided to move it, you knew full well the danger. It is no different than losing a mod worth 300 mil. Quote: Other threads were different discussions, I provided a different angle, that although it's not so much directly illegal, it can provide a questionable circumstance in which CCP can be accused of illegal activity. There were a LOT of threads of the legality of it. Fact is, it's legal. You pay CCP for a GTC, which you later turn into a PLEX. PLEX is an ingame item, and is thus owned by CCP. A GTC is not, which is why you can't scam with GTC, but you can with PLEX. Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Shiganaru Only convienent for CCP. It's all fun and games, until someone gets a nice loss-mail saying that CCP just stole $15. Well, it was your own decision to put the in-game item you decided to trade in for your $15 where it could be destroyed in the first place. Now if CCP would force you to move the item around, then you would have a point but guess what? They dont.
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2010.07.11 05:38:00 - [8] Make this short and simple. If your dumb to lose a Plexs then your just plain Dumb. People who are crying because someone losses a Plex because too their own stupidity. Dumb trolls Trinity Corporate Services
Jill Xelitras Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:15:00 - [9] Edited by: Jill Xelitras on 11/07/2010 06:17:05 Edited by: Jill Xelitras on 11/07/2010 06:16:35 Let's suppose on January 1st I pay 130 $/Ç to get a year worth of subscription and on January 2nd CCP closes down for good. Guess what happens to my money? It will most likely be used to pay whatever bills CCP still had to pay, but I won't get a refund. You buy a GTC and CCP gets your money. If CCP doesn't stop existing the next day, they will guarantee that you can get a PLEX (actually 2) or game-time for your GTC. If you chose game-time, it will be applied to the end of your current subscription and is guaranteed only as long as CCP operates the gameserver. If you chose PLEX, you'll get a PLEX and CCP only guarantees to do their best, so that this PLEX will behave as the game-mechanics intend it to behave. If you get yourself scammed out of your PLEX before you undock or if you get your PLEX blown up after you undock, no one cares but you. Ok, wrong ... the guy who blew you up will cuss when he looks at the killmail and sees a PLEX that didn't drop. Shirei, you're right in saying that it feels wrong. But please put the emphasis where it belongs: "it feels wrong". Because that's what it is about. It's the same thing when people that never play computergames discuss first person shooters. They feel that it is wrong to aim a (virtual) gun at a (virtual) human being and shoot at that (virtual) person. Where you are wrong (and this time it is factual and not just a feeling) is where you see the value of your 15$. If you pay your gametime by PLEX entirely, you actually never payed CCP 15$ in the first place. Also CCP did fulfill all the obligations they had by turning 30$ into GTC. If they shut down the server, no refund for the guy who paid 30$. If the GTC are converted into 2x PLEX, they are no longer 30$ or 2x 15$ they are an ingame-item. With 30$ dollar you could by ice-cream, with PLEX you can't. Anyway, by the time the 30$ are gone from your account (or billed to your credit-card) they are no longer yours. No ice-cream for you. It is now CCPs turn to buy ice-cream. I hope this explains it somewhat. Jill.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:36:00 - [10] Only a freaking moron would think a PLEX has any real life monetary value. You choose to spend money on an item in an internet spaceship game well known for having you lose your shit easily then too bad stupid.

Jill Xelitras Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Gladys Pank Only a freaking moron would think a PLEX has any real life monetary value. Absolutely correct. It's just that I hate being so blunt and hurt people's feelings. Jill.
Vyusoath Orillian	Posted - 2010.07.11 06:44:00 - [12] Originally by: Gladys Pank Only a freaking moron would think a PLEX has any real life monetary value. You choose to spend money on an item in an internet spaceship game well known for having you lose your shit easily then too bad stupid. /thread
MickeyKnox	Posted - 2010.07.11 07:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Vyusoath Orillian Originally by: Gladys Pank Only a freaking moron would think a PLEX has any real life monetary value. You choose to spend money on an item in an internet spaceship game well known for having you lose your shit easily then too bad stupid. /thread /thread Also reporting this crap, I think it's all a big trolling fest.
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.07.11 09:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Shirei Fenikkusu Consider this situation: What if I undock with a PLEX in my hold in a completely empty system and black screened? How do I know that CCP didn't purposefully make me black screen in order to take my $15 and not have to provide me with the services I paid for? I don't and probably wouldn't care to spend the money to have them investigated properly. I'mma make this pretty straight-forward for you. What if you don't drag the PLEX into your cargohold at all? Item DB \| Sigs
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.11 10:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Dan O'Connor What if you don't drag the PLEX into your cargohold at all? Only god knows how dumb people like OP think. =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.07.11 10:31:00 - [16] If plexes can be destroyed now, does that mean the end of static plexes and ccp will move them to exploration? I mean, what's the point in having a static plex when it's just ruins and nothing spawns there anymore because everything got destroyed? -------- All I want is a better mankind.
Jasdemi	Posted - 2010.07.11 10:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Abrazzar If plexes can be destroyed now, does that mean the end of static plexes and ccp will move them to exploration? I mean, what's the point in having a static plex when it's just ruins and nothing spawns there anymore because everything got destroyed? =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
King Gore Sword and Pistol	Posted - 2010.07.11 11:00:00 - [18] Edited by: King Gore on 11/07/2010 11:04:28 Edited by: King Gore on 11/07/2010 11:03:15 Originally by: Shirei Fenikkusu =If you pay for gametime, CCP is obligated to provide the services you paid for. You paid for an IN GAME item that can be EITHER used for an extra 30 days OR in game isk. If you REALLY wanted game time, spend 5 dollars (I'm not from the EU and no I don't care) LESS and buy two months for 30 dollars. THIS IS (not your) GAME. If you feel CCP has crossed some sort of line with this move, then maybe you should stop buying PLEX's. - Originally by: Verone Happy Ishtar is extremely happy Originally by: Kahn Souphanousinphone I thought I was going to live next to a powerful man, now I just live next to power.
Domonique Molvoy Exploitation Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.11 11:08:00 - [19] TL;DR but im pretty sure OP is ******ed. Domonique Molvoy Shiptoasting extraordinaire
Kohana Chayton Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.11 11:18:00 - [20] Edited by: Kohana Chayton on 11/07/2010 11:21:22 Originally by: King Gore Edited by: King Gore on 11/07/2010 11:04:28 Edited by: King Gore on 11/07/2010 11:03:15 Originally by: Shirei Fenikkusu =If you pay for gametime, CCP is obligated to provide the services you paid for. You paid for an IN GAME item that can be EITHER used for an extra 30 days OR in game isk. If you REALLY wanted game time, spend 5 dollars (I'm not from the EU and no I don't care) LESS and buy two months for 30 dollars. THIS IS (not your) GAME. If you feel CCP has crossed some sort of line with this move, then maybe you should stop buying PLEX's. There is actually precedence for this line of thinking. Poor precedence, but precedence never the less. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2007/11/dutch-teen-arre/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7094764.stm While I personally think it is stupid to get so worked up over a game... it looks like the legal definitions are slowly starting to change, and there may come a time where virtual items, carry a RL monetary value that can be legally binding to a company. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist OK everyone, please play nicely. There is no need to start getting angry or show off your Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Troll impression.

Monkey Saturday Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.07.11 12:22:00 - [21] So what you're saying is if you buy a GTC and turn it into a couple of PLEXes then they should be kept perfectly safe. Now I never ever buy GTC's and turn them into PLEX. I buy my PLEX with isk I make 100% in-game. Do my PLEXes get the same treatment? Is CCP obliged to protect my PLEX even though it cost me exactly $0.00?
Firkragg Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.11 12:29:00 - [22] Those links are meaningless since the refer to a situation where somone performed an illegal computer hack (in this case illegally accessing other peoples accounts with stolen passwords) Dont see the point of complaining about this. If you dont want to lose your plex then dont undock with them there isnt really any reason to anyways.
Vagilicious	Posted - 2010.07.11 14:14:00 - [23] I'm sick of these threads! With some forethought you shouldn't need to load a plex into your cargo AT ALL. Fly to the station you want to sell the plex from, dock up, THEN do your conversion! Voila! Plex in the station you wanted it, without the risk. You'd have to fly to the station anyway if you were transporting it, so I really can't see what the big deal is! It all comes down to common sense.
Takashi Halamoto No Limit Productions Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.07.11 14:47:00 - [24] Basic premise flaw - CCP was legally obliged to provide you with a plex in exchange for money, they did this the plex is yours, you are now the owner of an item any misuse, loss, destruction of this item is your problem, IF this item is traded to CCP they are contractually obliged to provide you 30days in return for the plex as they have bascially said they will trade 30d for any plex given to them, their contractual obligations only apply when you trade with them between those two occasions it is your property, your responsibility, your problem, the seller of an object or item is not allowed to tell or force you how to use said item once you have bought it, and as has been pointed out some douchebags have put plex's on market at 2bil, each one at silly price is a free 15$ for ccp cause those will never sell, Me? im just sitting here,
BrundleMeth Caldari Temporal Mechanics	Posted - 2010.07.11 17:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Shirei Fenikkusu Edited by: Shirei Fenikkusu on 11/07/2010 04:50:42 PLEXs are not like every other in-game item. They are unique and are representative of the $15 someone paid to obtain it. If the in-game PLEX item gets destroyed, that $15 does not get removed from CCP's bank account. PLEXs can be redeemed for game time, thus if one is ever destroyed, CCP will no longer be obligated to provide service in exchange for that PLEX. Consider this situation: What if I undock with a PLEX in my hold in a completely empty system and black screened? How do I know that CCP didn't purposefully make me black screen in order to take my $15 and not have to provide me with the services I paid for? I don't and probably wouldn't care to spend the money to have them investigated properly. Of course, I can always chose not to undock with a PLEX in my hold, but the fact that is still possible just feels wrong. It was one thing when PLEXs being indestructible meant that CCP would always have to provide services equal to the $15 that they received. (once applied that is) It is another when there is a possibility- by CCPs own design -that they won't have to provide their services. DO NOT LET THESE CHANGES BE IMPLEMENTED! -Shirei Fenikkusu EDIT: Any comments about the EULA are irrelevant. It is nothing more than a contract, and cannot supersede the law. If you pay for gametime, CCP is obligated to provide the services you paid for. (Even if it is to another account, that you "traded" your PLEX to.) Any means that can be classed as manipulation by CCP to not provide these services, can be seen as a scam, and thus against the law. Stick it in yer anal cavity already ffs, complain about something important...
Boltorano Fourth Circle Total Comfort	Posted - 2010.07.11 17:17:00 - [26] Originally by: Kohana Chayton There is actually precedence for this line of thinking. Poor precedence, but precedence never the less. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2007/11/dutch-teen-arre/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7094764.stm While I personally think it is stupid to get so worked up over a game... it looks like the legal definitions are slowly starting to change, and there may come a time where virtual items, carry a RL monetary value that can be legally binding to a company. And if you bothered to read either of those articles, you would realize that the person was charged for HACKING ACCOUNTS.
Laura Indorin	Posted - 2010.07.11 17:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Shirei Fenikkusu Edited by: Shirei Fenikkusu on 11/07/2010 04:50:42 PLEXs are not like every other in-game item. They are unique and are representative of the $15 someone paid to obtain it. If the in-game PLEX item gets destroyed, that $15 does not get removed from CCP's bank account. PLEXs can be redeemed for game time, thus if one is ever destroyed, CCP will no longer be obligated to provide service in exchange for that PLEX. Consider this situation: What if I undock with a PLEX in my hold in a completely empty system and black screened? How do I know that CCP didn't purposefully make me black screen in order to take my $15 and not have to provide me with the services I paid for? I don't and probably wouldn't care to spend the money to have them investigated properly. Of course, I can always chose not to undock with a PLEX in my hold, but the fact that is still possible just feels wrong. It was one thing when PLEXs being indestructible meant that CCP would always have to provide services equal to the $15 that they received. (once applied that is) It is another when there is a possibility- by CCPs own design -that they won't have to provide their services. DO NOT LET THESE CHANGES BE IMPLEMENTED! -Shirei Fenikkusu EDIT: Any comments about the EULA are irrelevant. It is nothing more than a contract, and cannot supersede the law. If you pay for gametime, CCP is obligated to provide the services you paid for. (Even if it is to another account, that you "traded" your PLEX to.) Any means that can be classed as manipulation by CCP to not provide these services, can be seen as a scam, and thus against the law. Consider this situation ... a gm or whatever creates isk ingame and buys 5 plexes of the market and destroys them. Has ccp now gained 5x$15 ? If they wanted to scam players from Gametime, they could do that already and no one would notice.
SirRalph Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.07.11 17:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Shirei Fenikkusu Edited by: Shirei Fenikkusu on 11/07/2010 04:50:42 PLEXs are not like every other in-game item. They are unique and are representative of the $15 someone paid to obtain it. If the in-game PLEX item gets destroyed, that $15 does not get removed from CCP's bank account. PLEXs can be redeemed for game time, thus if one is ever destroyed, CCP will no longer be obligated to provide service in exchange for that PLEX. Consider this situation: What if I undock with a PLEX in my hold in a completely empty system and black screened? How do I know that CCP didn't purposefully make me black screen in order to take my $15 and not have to provide me with the services I paid for? I don't and probably wouldn't care to spend the money to have them investigated properly. Of course, I can always chose not to undock with a PLEX in my hold, but the fact that is still possible just feels wrong. It was one thing when PLEXs being indestructible meant that CCP would always have to provide services equal to the $15 that they received. (once applied that is) It is another when there is a possibility- by CCPs own design -that they won't have to provide their services. DO NOT LET THESE CHANGES BE IMPLEMENTED! -Shirei Fenikkusu EDIT: Any comments about the EULA are irrelevant. It is nothing more than a contract, and cannot supersede the law. If you pay for gametime, CCP is obligated to provide the services you paid for. (Even if it is to another account, that you "traded" your PLEX to.) Any means that can be classed as manipulation by CCP to not provide these services, can be seen as a scam, and thus against the law. SO COULD YOU **ING IDIOTIC LOSER ACTUALLY USE THE PLEX TO YOUR ACCOUNT BEFORE UNDOCKING YOUR FAT ASS FAILURE?! WHATS THE **ING ISSUE HERE? YOU CAN ENABLE THE GOD DAMN PLEX FROM ANYWHERE! YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MOVE IT! JUST USE IT!
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2010.07.11 19:34:00 - [29] I say it again and again IF YOUR DUMB ENOUGH to take it out of a station and lose it its your fault. CCP is selling plexs. If you pay for it and you LOSE IT it's not CCP fault but yours I mean this is the most ******ed complains EVER!! Trinity Corporate Services
Criss AngeI	Posted - 2010.07.12 05:51:00 - [30] Since Op says that is against the law, OP should sue CCp, Then OP will ***** when CCP counter sues Op for everything OP has.



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