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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:02:00 -
[1]
 Quote:
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
Now we wait about 18 months and CCP will fix EVE for us 
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Creepy Goat
Schindlers Ignore List
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:10:00 -
[2]
Came expecting this:
CCP IS FIXING EVE
LOL JKES 
Left slightly surprised and fuzzy.
Signature not appropriate - Adida |
Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:13:00 -
[3]
In 18 months, folks will be so sick of what we have, they'll be clamouring for new content, and the endless cycle will continue.
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Pestilent Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:16:00 -
[4]
PTtur explained that it was the status of having the right to submit design requests to the official game design process and having it evaluated and considered on equal footing with CCPÆs internal design requests. (So, CSM is as weak as we always thought it was)
PTtur showed a potential ready-made 3rd party web tool for issues management. This would not only be available to the CSM, but also playersùwho could use it to raise, support, and prioritize issues among other potential functionality. (Proof or STFU tbh)
In time for the 5th CSM December Summit, CCP will tag all CSM-raised issues currently in the backlog and have a list of them made available to the CSM. (future CSM take note. Hold them to it.)
CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust.
However, CCP has added resources to the UI teamùthere are now three programmers instead of just one devoted to UI improvements. CSM asked why there is no dual screen support for the EVE client after seven years and reminded CCP that previous CSMs had raised this issue before. The UI team could not answer, as it is not their area of expertise; other CCP staff present identified the matter as related to the graphics engine, not to the UI.
CSM firmly stated its belief that CCP is on the wrong track in directing their development power into new things that the players have no faith in while acknowledging that the old things need attention. CSM truly believes that CCP needs to pay much more attention to what players are saying. There is a growing frustration among the CSM that CCPÆs apparent refusal to tangibly address well supported player requests will never change.
Despite their touted stakeholder status, it is clear even formerly supportive players are losing faith in the CSM process due to nothing changing about the way CCP treats CSM-raised issues.CCP responded that things do take time and although it might not look like it.
There was a lot of discussion on various balance issues by CSM. CCP suggested that the CSM produce a list of balance requests. This list should then be sent to CCP for cost and benefit analysis. ( :lol: )
CCPÆs response: Design time has already been invested into a redesign of the navigation UI and all ideas are welcome. This work is ongoing but there is currently no release date on this at this time.
The CSM Chairwoman stated she would be publicly tracking the status of CCPÆs deliverables so that the player base would remain informed about progress in getting these items from CCP. There was some initial reluctance to agreeing to publication of the commitments because of concerns about expectations management, but after CSM insistence and moderator support in favor of CSM, CCP acquiesced
The winter expansion will focus on polish of existing features, mainly planetary interaction, and preparation for coming expansions. The aim is to include new character modeling, which involves new technology and new artwork.Players will be required, when the new character creator will be released, to recreate all avatars in the new system. In general, the CSM was skeptical about the necessity and potential success of this expansion. A number of concerns were raised, potential impacts identified, and alternate ideas suggested. The inclusion of such an expansion appears to conflict with what was said in the previous session regarding the focus of the Winter Expansion.
Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment. (spinning your wheels is not a sign of commitment. progress is a sign of commitment and you haven't made any significant amount it years) |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:19:00 -
[5]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Quote:
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
Now we wait about 18 months and CCP will fix EVE for us
Fine, then CCP can wait 18 months for me to give them any more money.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
In 18 months, folks will be so sick of what we have, they'll be clamouring for new content, and the endless cycle will continue.
Old content that is redone and/or improved counts as new content.
Also: Interesting fashion statement during the alliance tournament.
Originally by: Pestilent Industries
CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust.
Boo that nothing is to be done for at least another year and a half but yay I guess that SoonÖ is getting officially CloserÖ for our beloved fw. 
Originally by: Balsak
Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:32:00 -
[7]
Measuring success by effort and not effect is rather strange.
Spending a lot of time to produce a lot of minimalistic features is hardly excellence in my books. Especially when looking at the severity and age of some bugs.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:58:00 -
[8]
In light of the past pattern of release it and forget it, why should I have any faith in incarna/dust to work correctly at all?
It's an old joke, that we are all playing Eve beta, however the pattern holds solid.
CCP may spend more on development than any other company because the 'develop' an expansion and then take multiple years (if ever) to actually get the expansion to work the way it was advertised. Maybe CCP spends more on development because their rush to release terrible, incorrectly tested and thoroughly misunderstood code ends up breaking the game more than it does anything half the time.
Furthermore, I didn't read anything in this that gave me any specific insight on CCP actually fixing their current server problems which they implemented 7 months ago. Game breaking performance issues. I'm mad enough the game doesn't work, if they think not talking about it is a good strategy... well the rest of you can enjoy Incarna/Dust.
I might go check out an MMO that doesn't spend much on new development, but compensates by making sure the game runs correctly.
It's as if everyone just accepts this is how the game will run for the next year.
IT DOESN'T RUN, HELL I DON'T PLAY THE GAME ANYMORE, WHY SHOULD I? SO I CAN WATCH A SESSION CHANGE SCREEN OR HAVE MODULES LOCK UP AND DIE? THAT ISN'T PLAYING A GAME, THAT IS WITNESSING FAILURE.
CCP needs to take a very real look at whether or not they want to keep many of their old accounts around anymore.
Word of mouth can be a great thing (put this game where it is) it can also be a very poisonous thing.
It's one thing to go play a new game and be unhappy with it. Your rage is probably a 2/10.
It's another to play a game for 6 years and finally have to bite the bullet and quit because you realize the developers have NO INTEREST in providing a quality product. That's rage of 11/10. And it will be heard on online reviews and forums and blah blah blah and will be a stigma they can't drop.
(vehemently stating you are committed to a quality product (NATHAN) and actually providing a quality product is two completely separate things!!)
Today's CCP just wants A PRODUCT, constant new bells and whistles to advertise with the state of it's operation being damned.
It was once a joke we'd say (as CCP would acknowledge problems and remind us they are working on it), it's since become a reality.
They shut up and barrel forward. (dont mention the alleged server issues that may exist. It's complete friggin denial.
I know for a fact I'm not close to alone with people just idling on their accounts and not playing/undocking. I can be rather patient with CCP, I have been for so long...
But if they expect me to spin my ship in a station for another 6-12 months before they even approach fixing their server problems they are nuts. I'm a one mmo person and I will leave this game and play a different one. (There are some nice ones coming out soon.) They need to be open and honest about the performance issue and start communicating with us about it or I'm out of here.
And to hell with giving away my stuff, I'll be sure to write up a nice OOPE listing all the things I trashed and the stats of the few characters I've biomassed 
Came expecting to see CCP is fixing eve.
Left disappointed (again).
--
A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game. |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:08:00 -
[9]
As for the deadly lag. It is for so long now and creates so much tears , if CCP were capable of fixing it they would do it allready.
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Demitrios
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:09:00 -
[10]
Welcome to EVE Online, the internets ONLY mining sim! (cause it cant handle much else!)
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Ran Khanon
Amarr
Vengeance Innovations
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pestilent Industries
PTtur explained ... etc
Thanks for that. Very informative.
All in all I think it is obvious that we are currently dealing with a CCP that is working hard on some of their larger, long term goals; Dust and Incarna. A strong focus on polish or fixing of existing features are not to be expected unless something is completely game breaking and/or can be easily addressed. Personally I couldn't care less about Dust, but Incarna is a huge thing to look forward to in my eyes. It has the potential to add much depth, flavour, alternate gameplay options and immersion to EVE.
They aren't totally neglecting us either though, and I think they are also having a little bad luck with some of the recurring issues. It would really help if they would make some noticeable progress in addressing the lag in large fleet battles for example. And it would also help if their next expansion will at least envelop some of the great player suggestions we've seen; fixing bounties and making bounty hunting a viable profession, for instance, is a case where improving existing content and adding new stuff could go hand in hand and make the game richer.
Anyway, my 2 cts.
I agree with everything Barakkus posts. |
Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:34:00 -
[12]
Yet another one of these topics huh.. so many springing up recently has me more inclined to believe its a few people with many alts than many people.
All revolving around the same thing.. 'if CCP doesn't do it my way, I quit! I'll do it! This time I mean it, I swear!' /me shakes fist angrily at lifeless monitor.
Because the voice on the forum is somehow the voice of the masses. In a game with thousands of players.. and a forum that seems to have maybe a couple hundred different people tops (lets not forget how many will use multi-alts in these threads, even to the point of 'talking' to themselves in back to back posts to make it appear if someone agrees with their view).
CCP is trying to fix certain elements, and some are on back-burner for other things I do think mass players are looking forward to. Simply look back at how many people have asked for walk-in stations, how many people have asked for interactions with planets in varies ways.. and now they doing it, and now its other people voicing their opinion (or of course the nut jobs that just got to ***** in any possible way cause they are angry-mentally messed up people).
Everyone ain't going to agree. I'm sure CCP is doing the best they can. Get over it, they ain't trying to bend people over cause that isn't a very good foundation for long term growth and stablity. And given CCP's track record over the years of an increasing sub base, they doing a pretty damn good job.
Don't like the product, simply quit. Crying like a ***** on the forum gives me the impression people ain't really going to quit, they just venting in hopes they can be reconciled by peers, or possibly have a dev give them a hug and say 'I believe and listen to you, your Right and will always be right, and your mommy doesn't love you, but we here at CCP do'. Come on people.. really, get over it. Play or don't. Make your suggestions in the best, respectable manner and move on. Instead of..
This is more like terrorist acts with threats of biomass and quiting.. or the mentality of a 8 year old holding their breath for the latest toy RIGHT NOW.
----------------------------------------
-Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Musical Fist
Gallente
NAP Coalition
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:36:00 -
[13]
Hmm this is a little odd, 18 isnt that bad tbh compared to the 9 months of lag drama 18 months is fine but I gotta ask why is CCP doing all the mass testing since it had no intention of fixing lag until after dust / incarna?
What am I missing here :/
--
Recruiting now open!! |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:37:00 -
[14]
The CSM Minutes: http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf
CCP's responses in this is full of so much fail. Oh man. I feel like I'm on the edge of saying I need to make my voice heard with my wallet. The forum mods always say to file a petition.... maybe I should. /sigh
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
omgevenmoarfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:50:00 -
[15]
They know we'll all keep playing anyway, so why should they fix anything?
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Deva Blackfire
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:01:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The CSM Minutes: http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf
CCP's responses in this is full of so much fail. Oh man. I feel like I'm on the edge of saying I need to make my voice heard with my wallet. The forum mods always say to file a petition.... maybe I should. /sigh
-Liang
Just read them all... So pathetic.
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Cryptkiller
Minmatar
Ebola Allstars
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Quote:
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
Now we wait about 18 months and CCP will fix EVE for us
Fine, then CCP can wait 18 months for me to give them any more money.
Wish I could. I`m subscribed until 2013 weather I want to be or not. I have some doubts Incarna or Dust will release during that timeframe. Yet the flawed game we play today will remain (or become worse).
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:14:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 12/07/2010 23:17:55
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The CSM Minutes: http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf
CCP's responses in this is full of so much fail. Oh man. I feel like I'm on the edge of saying I need to make my voice heard with my wallet. The forum mods always say to file a petition.... maybe I should. /sigh
-Liang
Heh, I can't agree with you more. I mean, alone the statement, that any potential fixes for "backlog issues" are practically postponed until Incarna (which we waited for years) AND Dust514 (which doesn't seem anywhere near completion as of yet and what I know) AND the PI-improvements were released, is a straight slap into the face of all the current and especially the older players.
I dunno how much more plain and straight I can put it, but all the expansions and shiny stuffs that you, dear CCP, will ever introduce the way like you did in the past, will help you with keeping the players that you attract with them! You really really hard fail to see, that not attracting new poeple will make the game great, but actually keeping them is the key to victory! The more issues you create, the less chances you will have to actually ever keep it running smooth again, because you practically bury yourself in a gigantic pile of **** that you created.
And that is spoken as an actual die-hard fan of EVE Online: You created something awesomely big and beautiful here and try to make it bigger and more hardy by adding stuff that growth like cancer instead of getting rid of elemental flaws in your design!
All you manage to do, is stockpiling the problems and postponing them to laterÖ or soonÖ while the whole pile you create becomes more and more instable!
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Dzajic
Gallente
Level Up
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:22:00 -
[19]
I've read the damn "minutes", and posted in Assembly Hall, but this is big enough to warrant hitting on it wherever possible.
CCP has completely mysteriously told us that they won't be fixing or improving anything regarding EVE in next 18 moths. The game is abandoned of nearly all support for at least next year and a half. When Dust fails, and it will, competing with Modern Warfare and Bad Company and Halo franchises; when Dust fails CCP wont likely have financial strength to continue and "EVE is dying" might finally change form into a completed verb.
But until then we can hope for... nothing. They wont balance lowsec, they wont improve and fix Faction Warfare, nor do anything about 0.0 sov, nor improve UI for at least next year and a half.
Well then, if CCP is abandoning EVE for at least year and a half, perhaps players should to?
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Gisou
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:00:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Gisou on 13/07/2010 12:00:42
Quote:
Players will be required, when the new character creator will be released, to recreate all avatars in the new system.
For the love of Jove - why?! Its already a completely pointless feature that is regualarly the main butt of reviewer jokes about spending hours desiging your character in 3d then being given a postage stamp sized compressed blur in-game that you never see any more of.. Are we going to have to wait 3 months for our forum avatars to show up again then? *rolls eyes
Unless WiS arrives soon after, what on Earth is the point of any of that? *confused.
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David Grogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:12:00 -
[21]
lets all take up mining for the next 18 months so we can stockpile mins while ccp finish introducing a buggy incarna and dust expansion.... and finally make a start on fixing a broken game.
by then we will all have enough mins to forget about flying anything less than a supercap. we could then have a 30000 titans/moms vs 30000 titans/moms epic war that would not just crash a node but the entire cluster :)
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.13 13:09:00 -
[22]
Edited by: TheBlueMonkey on 13/07/2010 13:11:05
Oh yawn,
The more I read the less interested I get in playing, it's depressing.
I don't care about walking in stations, I started playing eve for internet spaceships not for simms online.
I don't care about Dust, the world truely does need ANOTHER first person shooter.
Planetary interaction is mildly interesting as far as removing npc seeded items from the market place goes but beyond that, make it work well and as expected before doing something else.
What happened to cosmos missions?
What happened to cosmos mods?
What happened to faction warfare?
The list probably doesn't need to be repeated again so I'll stop there...
I've cancled one account so far and I'm kinda glad that I've been too busy to play recently as everything just seems to be spiraling into a ****ty PVE game and the problem with that is if I'm paying a monthly sub for a PVE game I might as well just plan an offline PVE as I'll get to do whatever I want and mod it when I get bored.
At this point I'm fairly sure that once Fallout Online comes out, I'll be jumping ship and playing that.
--
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Sol Mahon
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.13 13:26:00 -
[23]
Polish will not be applied until after Dust has been released, this makes perfect sense.
but I always thought the idea of polish was to do it regularly, scheduled and such like once every month or something, you polish then you place somehing on that polished... urm surface, you don't not polish something because your going to cover it up with... something else.
Or I've just been cleaning wrong... what are we talking about again? the Polish? |
Kristoff Oldsvarzchy
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:11:00 -
[24]
OK so what I got out of reading these minutes: The CSM has no real power, their input is worth nothing to CCP and CCP is not willing to migrate resources to anything outside of their already pre-determined development schedule, not even to fix the most trivial of balance changes unless the fix is a few lines of code.
Normally I would *never* waste my time writing such a pointless venting forum post, however while reading through their I could only shake my head in shock and disbelief as the corporate culture of apathy trickled out from each and every talking point. If their development process is as rigid as they make it seem then there is no bright future for Eve, which makes me sad :(
Oh CCP, you will always be begging for the scraps from Blizzard's table with such a lack of commitment to perfection. So much for avoiding the feature-creep as they've been touting recently.
Sigh... I feel dirty for writing a whine post like this :( I'm just too disgusted after reading these minutes. The CSM was completely brushed aside on every subject!
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Bluefix
Gnu Terror Corps
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Musical Fist
Hmm this is a little odd, 18 isnt that bad tbh compared to the 9 months of lag drama 18 months is fine but I gotta ask why is CCP doing all the mass testing since it had no intention of fixing lag until after dust / incarna?
What am I missing here :/
They ARE working on the lag (although with limited success)
The problem is rather the lack of resources available to resolve other problems that have not already been given resources.
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Sully Tude
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:49:00 -
[26]
Why the heck did I buy a full year subscription on all 3 accounts...it seemed like a good idea at the time...
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Amerilia
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sully Tude
Why the heck did I buy a full year subscription on all 3 accounts...it seemed like a good idea at the time...
Maybe you can have it reverted to plex if you petition.
And then come back when eve is either revived or .. well dead but then you wont be able to come back
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:28:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Abrazzar on 14/07/2010 20:29:57
Originally by: Sully Tude
Why the heck did I buy a full year subscription on all 3 accounts...it seemed like a good idea at the time...
Yeah, similar with me, bought 12 months in PLEXes and now I can't emoragequit. 
Maybe we can just stop logging in and watch the user count go down by 5-10%
--------
All I want is a better management.
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Decland MacManus
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:30:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Decland MacManus on 14/07/2010 20:31:44
in 18 Months, I'll have left for SW:TOR, and EVE will most likely be imitating SW:G. IE, pumping out expansion after S#!tty expansion while their core player base hemorrhages.
Don't get me wrong, I love EVE. I'm addicted to deadspace complexes, and actually enjoy scanning. I just know that it could A) be so much more and B) CCP won't even get a 2 man polish team together to tide us over. /fail
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BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2010.07.14 23:35:00 -
[30]
I can hardly wait until we can buy skill points...
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certayne
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Posted - 2010.07.14 23:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Now we wait about 18 months and CCP will start trying to fix EVE for us
fixed for you.
Also, Tanis, how about, if 500 people show up for the next 3 mass-tests after the next one, you guys stop developing Dust and fix eve now?
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Amerilia
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Posted - 2010.07.15 00:00:00 -
[32]
Originally by: certayne
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Now we wait about 18 months and CCP will start trying to fix EVE for us
fixed for you.
Also, Tanis, how about, if 500 people show up for the next 3 mass-tests after the next one, you guys stop developing Dust and fix eve now?
Hey taht would get me to the mass test
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Nimbat
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.07.15 00:04:00 -
[33]
Reading this thread made me depressed.
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Tyriana McLoren
Caldari
The Republic of Free Trade
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Posted - 2010.07.15 00:44:00 -
[34]
Hello Horse.. meet Carrot... again...
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Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.15 05:59:00 -
[35]
Originally by: certayne
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Now we wait about 18 months and CCP will start trying to fix EVE for us
fixed for you.
Also, Tanis, how about, if 500 people show up for the next 3 mass-tests after the next one, you guys stop developing Dust and fix eve now?
QFT
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marcocom
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Posted - 2010.07.16 15:56:00 -
[36]
I dont think many of you understand how software is developed. i am a senior developer.
any game out there that recieves as many patch updates as this game does is not ever EVER considered a 'dropped priority' of their publisher.
this is an enormous codebase with a likely mind-numbingly complicated database. just optimizing a database like this can take so long! and resources?? guys, what makes you think its easy to find the VERY RARE and VERY EXPENSIVE talent needed to even comprehend the current code libraries, let alone not mess them up. it would take a guy at least a year to be effective at problem-solving that engine. since theres nothing out there anything like EVE with a single server instance that would allow us to assume that its an entirely custom-built engine from the ground up in probably some esoteric (since its now years and years old, preceding many common standards today) integration that can be harder and harder to find technicians for.
they want to do DUST because they can. its actually easy. finding FPS coders and code-libraries is so common now that the Unity3D engine is practically giving it away for free these days! there is so many millions of wanna-be John Carmacks all over the world...but do you have any idea what kind of ROCK STAR talent is needed to debug, let alone optimize, a codebase of a custom MMORPG that attempts to do what this one does and pulls off daily!?!.
im just suggesting that you have some regard for what it is that you are demanding. the machine works. some features better than others. give them time to roll this stuff out in clean and firm and well-placed steps upward. they are clearly trying.
and FOR GODS SAKE please do not listent to the suits and account people (and no, they dont wear suits. they dress like programmers and act like them but theyre usually just producers and account management). whoever was at any kind of user-seminar full of ideas from the community, was NOT important or expensive and probably does not have as much sway and control as you may think.
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Judge Ment
Solitude Empires
Blade.
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Posted - 2010.07.16 16:59:00 -
[37]
18 months
-------------------------------------
We judge others by actions
We judge ourselves by intentions. |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Dynaverse Corporation
Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.16 17:00:00 -
[38]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Quote:
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
Now we wait about 18 months and CCP will fix EVE for us
Quote:
CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust.
You do realize, of course, that neither of these quotes says that CCP will wait 18 months before they do any work fixing/improving existing features right?
Actually read what was said in the above quotes, then go read the parts that are being overlooked... such as the expanded team already working on the UI. Perhaps read the last blog on client improvements derived from the constant recent mass testings, and the notice that an upcoming blog will discuss the server side issues that were uncovered and are being tested.
Yes, FW will not be focused on for awhile. Unfortunate but understandable considering the upcoming major releases.
But in no way did they state, or imply, that ongoing efforts to uncover and fix bugs would be lessened.
What they DID state was that they would give an even heavier focus to upgrading existing features after their current developement cycle is done.
Some of you folks really, really need to quit trying to whip up hysteria among those that are reading comprehension challenged.
Note: I did find the bit about where the CSM gave their highly educated opinion on the viability of the next expansions highly amusing. Do they have even the slightest clue what they are supposed to be there for? It doesn't surprise me that some CCP representatives get a little defensive with the CSM at times. Thats a normal reaction when someone completely oversteps their area of responsibility in an extremely inappropriate way. Do the damn job you were elected to do, and stop trying to prove you know more about how to manage the corporate goals and methodology of a game design company than the professionals do. Thats not what you are there for.
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If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari
Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2010.07.16 20:40:00 -
[39]
Originally by: marcocom
I dont think many of you understand how software is developed. i am a senior developer.
any game out there that recieves as many patch updates as this game does is not ever EVER considered a 'dropped priority' of their publisher.
this is an enormous codebase with a likely mind-numbingly complicated database. just optimizing a database like this can take so long! and resources?? guys, what makes you think its easy to find the VERY RARE and VERY EXPENSIVE talent needed to even comprehend the current code libraries, let alone not mess them up. it would take a guy at least a year to be effective at problem-solving that engine. since theres nothing out there anything like EVE with a single server instance that would allow us to assume that its an entirely custom-built engine from the ground up in probably some esoteric (since its now years and years old, preceding many common standards today) integration that can be harder and harder to find technicians for.
they want to do DUST because they can. its actually easy. finding FPS coders and code-libraries is so common now that the Unity3D engine is practically giving it away for free these days! there is so many millions of wanna-be John Carmacks all over the world...but do you have any idea what kind of ROCK STAR talent is needed to debug, let alone optimize, a codebase of a custom MMORPG that attempts to do what this one does and pulls off daily!?!.
im just suggesting that you have some regard for what it is that you are demanding. the machine works. some features better than others. give them time to roll this stuff out in clean and firm and well-placed steps upward. they are clearly trying.
and FOR GODS SAKE please do not listent to the suits and account people (and no, they dont wear suits. they dress like programmers and act like them but theyre usually just producers and account management). whoever was at any kind of user-seminar full of ideas from the community, was NOT important or expensive and probably does not have as much sway and control as you may think.
As an IT Guru of over 30 years, I understand exactly what you mean. However, I expect a lot of deaf ears here...
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Napro
Caldari
Buccaneers of New Eden
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Posted - 2010.07.19 10:14:00 -
[40]
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Ti'anla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.19 10:39:00 -
[41]
Why on Earth do so few people realise that if you do the mass-bug fixing before you put in the huge pile of new content, it'll just get broken again and the mass-fix'll be for nought? o.O
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2010.07.19 17:09:00 -
[42]
Edited by: KhaniKirai on 19/07/2010 17:13:27
Originally by: marcocom
I dont think many of you understand how software is developed. i am a senior developer.
any game out there that recieves as many patch updates as this game does is not ever EVER considered a 'dropped priority' of their publisher.
this is an enormous codebase with a likely mind-numbingly complicated database. just optimizing a database like this can take so long! and resources?? guys, what makes you think its easy to find the VERY RARE and VERY EXPENSIVE talent needed to even comprehend the current code libraries, let alone not mess them up. it would take a guy at least a year to be effective at problem-solving that engine. since theres nothing out there anything like EVE with a single server instance that would allow us to assume that its an entirely custom-built engine from the ground up in probably some esoteric (since its now years and years old, preceding many common standards today) integration that can be harder and harder to find technicians for.
they want to do DUST because they can. its actually easy. finding FPS coders and code-libraries is so common now that the Unity3D engine is practically giving it away for free these days! there is so many millions of wanna-be John Carmacks all over the world...but do you have any idea what kind of ROCK STAR talent is needed to debug, let alone optimize, a codebase of a custom MMORPG that attempts to do what this one does and pulls off daily!?!.
im just suggesting that you have some regard for what it is that you are demanding. the machine works. some features better than others. give them time to roll this stuff out in clean and firm and well-placed steps upward. they are clearly trying.
and FOR GODS SAKE please do not listent to the suits and account people (and no, they dont wear suits. they dress like programmers and act like them but theyre usually just producers and account management). whoever was at any kind of user-seminar full of ideas from the community, was NOT important or expensive and probably does not have as much sway and control as you may think.
I guess you also understand then, that the more you expand, without fixing stuff immediately, the tougher it becomes to fix it. And quite often it gets IMPOSSIBLE to fix things?
Oh, I am not a software developer, I am just coming from a more adult industry: civil engineering. That is not getting away with the weak excuses the software industry always comes up with.
Why does the software industry not just grown up and stop with all the weak excuses....
PS:
Its just pathetic we still dont have a filter to sort copies and originals in the contract lists :/
Why can you right click on a container to open it, but you can not right click on a pos array or contract hangar to open it...
Why do we have to pauze a skill training, if we want to jumpclone, we are talking about software, that should be automatically done.......
Why cant we just jumpclone, but have to first leave the ship? Its software, such things should be done automatically.
Why can we not see what is damaged in an hangar? So there is no way to sort the damaged part out, so you can finally continue to repackage it all.
Why can the game not just repackaged everything, that is undamaged, and just skip the damaged parts, instead of stopping with the repackaging job, you selected, making it impossible for you to find out, what is damaged.
Hmm, I can sum up tons and tons of minor stupid issues like this and these are the least harmfull ones. They really should spent time on fixing things, lots of loottables are still broken or not working as well.
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Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.19 17:39:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 19/07/2010 17:40:08
Yep, CSM minutes showed that CCP has decided that quantity is now more important than quality, and that they're not really interested in EVE for 18 months until Incarna and Dust is done.
Then they acted all shocked that that's what we took away from the minutes, then provided numbers to back up the worrying that EVE went on the backburner.
*clap clap*
Still not enjoying 40-100 man gangs having a crap shoot every system they jump as to weather they load grid within 10 minutes.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar
Blacklight Holdings
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The CSM Minutes: http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf
CCP's responses in this is full of so much fail. Oh man. I feel like I'm on the edge of saying I need to make my voice heard with my wallet. The forum mods always say to file a petition.... maybe I should. /sigh
-Liang
*reads minutes*
............
Ilharess of the Scorpion King
Reality has two sides hunter and hunted |
Damion Stranek
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:20:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Damion Stranek on 19/07/2010 18:21:27
Quote:
PS:
Oh, I am not a software developer, I am just coming from a more adult industry: civil engineering. That is not getting away with the weak excuses the software industry always comes up with.
Why does the software industry not just grown up and stop with all the weak excuses....YARRRR!!
Its just pathetic we still dont have a filter to sort copies and originals in the contract lists :/
Why can you right click on a container to open it, but you can not right click on a pos array or contract hangar to open it...
Why do we have to pauze a skill training, if we want to jumpclone, we are talking about software, that should be automatically done.......
Why cant we just jumpclone, but have to first leave the ship? Its software, such things should be done automatically.
Why can we not see what is damaged in an hangar? So there is no way to sort the damaged part out, so you can finally continue to repackage it all.
Why can the game not just repackaged everything, that is undamaged, and just skip the damaged parts, instead of stopping with the repackaging job, you selected, making it impossible for you to find out, what is damaged.
Hmm, I can sum up tons and tons of minor stupid issues like this and these are the least harmfull ones. They really should spent time on fixing things, lots of loottables are still broken or not working as well.
My god, this post is disgusting. I am a professional programmer, and the sense of self-righteous entitlement and willful arrogance this post is spewing just irks me on about every level.
Why do these things not get done? Why are obviously useful features not implemented? Are programmers and software developers simply a bunch of oblivious nerds sitting in dark rooms plugging away while being completely isolated from common sense and the rest of the world? No, the reason these things aren't in the game are almost certainly for the following two reasons:
1. The current programming and interface in place is implemented in such a way as to make it extremely difficult, or at least very tedious to implement the feature.
2. Their is a perfectly acceptable way to accomplish what this difficult-to-implement feature would do and it only requires the user to spend a few more seconds on the task.
Now, back to my rant. I could give any number of ludicrous examples from civil engineering to make my point. Why do we need 6 way intersections or diagonal streets for that matter? Why do we need on/off ramps that double back on themselves to get us places when we all know a line is the shortest route between two points? These questions are as ignorant as the ones you asked in your post. Programmers and developers are more aware of exactly what their product can do than most anyone else. Yes, there are some cases where programmers are also responsible for designing the interface to the user, and these cases can result in poor UI design. However, I guarantee to you that CCP is a large enough company with a product that relies on direct and frequent user interaction that they have a team dedicated to the User Interface. If it was easy to give your greedy ass every little feature you could possibly dream up, it would be done! Believe it or not, commercial developers WANT people to like to use their programs!
Ideally, programmers would provide people every intuitive device possible to control the program, but it is not so simple a thing as snapping your fingers and demanding that it be done. You are treating software as if it is some mystical black box meant to cater to your every whim, I cannot even begin to suggest how ignorant and shortsighted that view is. Nevertheless, we will continue to strive toward the vision of your future. I am just surprised the developers haven't included a feature that automatically wipes your ass at login or dries the spittle from your jowls every time you post.
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alittlebirdy
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:12:00 -
[46]
Blah blah programming is hard blah blah...
So 0.0 eve fleets were playable a year ago, then out comes a update to the code... and now... EPIC lag, crashes, etc...
Um... so when these engineers update shıt... tends to work better don't it? Like I've yet to see a hydroelectric dam updated and make less power...
FAIL = FAIL
Now to fail and be like... O we aint gona fix that cause we have better things to do.
lol, ah I hope you programmers have people work on your homes, make it worse, and then be like okay well I'm pretty booked though for the next year, I'll fix that leaky roof when I'm done.
Ya walking in stations would be cool, so would a flying car, talking dog, and robot to wipe my ass. Cept right now none are practicalà so. We donÆt have them. HAHA I canÆt wait to see how hard the servers lag when dealing with new walking in stations as well as PI as well as fights, as well as everything else. Or is that why it aint around yetà because CCP knows the hardware is not their yet for that sorta load.
Ya it is hard work but guess what, if the crap don't work, don't do it.
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Damion Stranek
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Posted - 2010.07.20 06:11:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Damion Stranek on 20/07/2010 06:13:04
Originally by: alittlebirdy
Blah blah programming is hard blah blah...
So 0.0 eve fleets were playable a year ago, then out comes a update to the code... and now... EPIC lag, crashes, etc...
Um... so when these engineers update shıt... tends to work better don't it? Like I've yet to see a hydroelectric dam updated and make less power...
FAIL = FAIL
Now to fail and be like... O we aint gona fix that cause we have better things to do.
lol, ah I hope you programmers have people work on your homes, make it worse, and then be like okay well I'm pretty booked though for the next year, I'll fix that leaky roof when I'm done.
Ya walking in stations would be cool, so would a flying car, talking dog, and robot to wipe my ass. Cept right now none are practicalà so. We donÆt have them. HAHA I canÆt wait to see how hard the servers lag when dealing with new walking in stations as well as PI as well as fights, as well as everything else. Or is that why it aint around yetà because CCP knows the hardware is not their yet for that sorta load.
Ya it is hard work but guess what, if the crap don't work, don't do it.
I am not sure what world you're living in, but it clearly isn't the real one. You seem to be saying CCP has abandoned Eve when in fact they are working hard to try and make this the most fun and comprehensive sci-fi experience they can. I am not making excuses for CCP, but to be perfectly honest, you know less than nothing about the technology that goes into this game and infantile demands for them to magically make all the problems go away are just wasted breath. If you want to be helpful, then make structured posts in the assembly hall or take part in any number of protest events (though those are almost as mind numbing), don't waste everyones time by making us sift through these junk posts.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.07.20 07:32:00 -
[48]
Do you think maybe all these threads might be indicative of a problem with CCPs current strategy?
Could it mean they might need to change something in a hurry?
Really?
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Kireiina
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Posted - 2010.07.20 07:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Kireiina on 20/07/2010 07:48:12
Originally by: KhaniKirai
I guess you also understand then, that the more you expand, without fixing stuff immediately, the tougher it becomes to fix it. And quite often it gets IMPOSSIBLE to fix things?
Oh, I am not a software developer, I am just coming from a more adult industry: civil engineering. That is not getting away with the weak excuses the software industry always comes up with.
Why does the software industry not just grown up and stop with all the weak excuses....
That's because software generally doesn't fall over or explode in an obvious way. When you have a pile of rubble where a building used to be it's a bit hard to use the "working as intended" line. Whereas even really sickly software will still do something. Also the raw materials are cheap so just bolting on more material is much easier (and easier to sell as progress) than fixing foundations.
Of course software is also fairly complicated and projects tend to have a high degree of novelty so it is not surprising there are issues found.
And yes, I am a Software Engineer :)
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