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Sakura Nihil Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:46:00 - [1] Quote: The CSM suggested that a perception of excellence is in large part based on player perception and that they felt that players generally do not perceive EVE as being an excellent product nor headed in an excellent direction. The greatly increased null-sec lag was cited as major example, as it has resulted in a situation where fleets of a few dozen players often experience major problems loading up empty systems. Nathan pointed out that CCP is heavily focused on reducing lag and that resources are currently being applied to the problem. Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features. It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features. This led to a discussion on the balance of customer acquisition through new features versus customer retention through quality and polish. The CSM also stressed the importance of goodwill and overall player satisfaction, which is very hard to measure in statistics until players decide to quit. The CSM is concerned that players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved. I'll try and keep this concise. While I understand CCP's position from a business point of view, it would be wise for them to remember how EVE became what it is today. In an industry which thrives on plagiarism and subscriber turnover, CCP released a quality product that was supported by its playerbase due to continuous, relevant improvements to the gameplay. While the sandbox aspect of EVE has definitely been enhanced with the advent of wormholes, planetary interaction, and eventually Incarna and Dust, I have to ask, at what cost to quality? What could have been done with the resources invested into planetary interaction this last expansion? Could we have improved and expanded Faction Warfare, or expanded COSMOS sites, or maybe an attempt to revitalize a stagnant lowsec? My point is this - we're not asking you to stop Dust or Incarna. Not only do they sound awesome to many players (especially Dust), but even if we asked you to, you're not going to (and you shouldn't). From a business perspective, it makes sense to open up the EVE Universe into different genres to capture a larger client base. However, doing so at the expense of the game that made it possible in the first place, and is the flagship of your future gaming lineup, is short-sighted and foolish. All we're asking for is that you try and triage the situation with EVE until (or if) proper resources are freed up from the other projects. Little fixes make more of an impact than you might think, I know a lot of people who would be happy for weeks or months if the old cyno effect came back (AKA, the vortex of doom), as it makes hotdrops look awesome. Small graphical fix, how long would that take to implement? I'd argue that is a good return on investment, as opposed to Spacebook, which speaking from personal experience have seen used twice... by a several hundred person alliance. Ouch. I don't expect to change a corporation's business policy, that would be arrogant of me. However, I really hope this thought rattles around in the heads of some devs... that is, assuming they read these forums anymore, with the amount of hate, ignorance, and stupidity spewed here on a regular basis. PS, idea for your first improvement, ban anonymous alt posts. Winter 2010? Selective Pressure is recruiting.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:51:00 - [2] Originally by: Sakura Nihil The CSM is concerned that players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved. TL;DR but this is my favorite part. "Guys we aren't delivering on our promises or expectations." "Well then we obviously need to lower those expectations! Can't have people expecting us to put out content that works as intended and is polished out of the box."
Ghaylenty	Posted - 2010.07.13 03:58:00 - [3] rofl expectation management seems like thats what these CSM summits are for no?? fix your game. market data shows new features sell better because people are sheep. the people who play eve are not the same people who play world of warcraft. we do infact enjoy new things, but when they are obviously put together ad hock and thrown in hastily with incomplete features, it feels like you (yes CCP) are trying to force content down our throats in order to detract from the giant pink elephant which is CCP's rapidly declining reputation among its playerbase. How you gonna sell dust when all the eve players are warning on forums that dust will never be touched by CCP after it hits the shelves? The way its shaping up, it looks like CCP's intentions are to have immediate financial success despite the ramification it will inflict on its products, players, and reputation. Think about this at your meetings when you're wondering why world of warcraft still has more players than you. i actually fly amarr
Plutonian Intransigent	Posted - 2010.07.13 05:00:00 - [4] Dear CCP, I regret to inform you that, after witnessing the manner in which you maintain Eve Online, I have no desire to invest either time or money in this or any future titles developed by your corporation. Your customers spoke out... and you ignored them. The CSM (created by your own hand) spoke out... and you ignored them. Good luck. CCP, in this instance, refers to the Corporation Leaders (i.e., 'the Suits') and not the developers.
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Black Legion.	Posted - 2010.07.13 08:19:00 - [5] Relevant. Originally by: Helicity on SHC Step 1: found "team batman" Step 2: task team batman with fixing one or two niggling issues a month Step 3: grant team batman the right to say "Because I'm the goddamned batman" to gain access to what ever limited resource they need for their fix (like a specific dev) Step 4: team batman delivers us a monthly mini patch that fixes two small issues Step 5: All bittervets enjoy their rocket vengeances.
Jack Dant Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2010.07.13 08:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Sakura Nihil All we're asking for is that you try and triage the situation with EVE until (or if) proper resources are freed up from the other projects. Little fixes make more of an impact than you might think, I know a lot of people who would be happy for weeks or months if the old cyno effect came back (AKA, the vortex of doom), as it makes hotdrops look awesome. Small graphical fix, how long would that take to implement? Completely agreed. CCP seems to delay small fixes, such as the cyno effect or rockets, until they have time to do a complete overhaul of that part of the game. Because that overhaul is time consuming and low priority, we are left with the same easily fixed problems for years. Rockets just require a few number adjustments, but they've been broken since november 08. The new cyno was introduced in March 09 and was inmediately rejected by players. Yet we are still waiting for those fixes. Quote: I'd argue that is a good return on investment, as opposed to Spacebook, which speaking from personal experience have seen used twice... by a several hundred person alliance. Ouch. CCP must have numbers on real use of EVE Gate, but my experience as a PVP player is similar: other than using it to read mail out of game, and maybe calendar events, I haven't seen much use. It was designed with the same philosophy CCP has shown to the CSM: "We don't care what you need, this is what you are going to use". Please CCP rethink this.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2010.07.13 08:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Natalia Kovac Relevant. Originally by: Helicity on SHC Step 1: found "team batman" Step 2: task team batman with fixing one or two niggling issues a month Step 3: grant team batman the right to say "Because I'm the goddamned batman" to gain access to what ever limited resource they need for their fix (like a specific dev) Step 4: team batman delivers us a monthly mini patch that fixes two small issues Step 5: All bittervets enjoy their rocket vengeances. Man, now you's talkin' crazy! That would like actually get things done. I don't think that's the sort of thing CCP is looking for. They don't want the work to get done, they want creative suggestions for making more work! That way they can justify hiring more people, and thus help reduce the unemployment rate in Iceland. Now if you can't see how that's more important that us enjoying some... oh what the hell
Caldrion Dosto Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:29:00 - [8] Agree with op. Seriously your replys to the CSM in the minutes are appaling.... Wait 18 freaking months for core game improvements WTF?
Bin Matar Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:40:00 - [9] So what they are saying is "Hey guys if you all just pay us another ú/$ 200 over the next 18 months to cover the cost of developing a console game you wont be able to play and the beta engine of our next MMO then we MIGHT come back and fix your game for you". Quote: [20:25:09] wtfepixz > did someone just shoot me?
bustergonads	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Bin Matar So what they are saying is "Hey guys if you all just pay us another ú/$ 200 over the next 18 months to cover the cost of developing a console game you wont be able to play and the beta engine of our next MMO then we MIGHT come back and fix your game for you". What they are actually saying to the playerbase is v0v

Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:52:00 - [11] Here's a thing that stood out for me: Quote: It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features. This, while probably true ignores the "Ooo-shiny"-factor(tm), which is pretty much the human desire to try out new features, and while it most likely means that a lot of people get a "Ooo-shiny"-sensation(tm) it is most definitely (seeing CCP's track record these past years) going to be short lived. What got people's interest in the first place wasn't the "Ooo-shiny"-factor(tm) but how well made the game was (I know there's always been bugs, but recently they all stack up alongside with bad ideas and a lot of "Ooo-shiny"-factor(tm)) that the playerbase didn't actually want.
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:57:00 - [12] I have to admit that there are some things that have been changed which shouldn't have been (and I'm just 1 1/2 years actively in New Eden). Personally I'm not so much involved in battles and warfare, so I couldn't really talk about lag and stuff. But for example, the Warp effect before Apocrypha was really cool - it was actually one of the reasons that got me started in the game (you know, I like eye-candy). The Warp "Wave" when in that velocity is either very quiet or has vanished. Not cool CCP =( I agree the UI has some things that need to be improved, but then again I'm a simple person and don't mind it that much. Except maybe a different font. Now that really is some sort of priority... nowadays fonts can appear so smooth that you think it's printed, yet the font in EVE still has hard-edged and no anti-aliasing. Can't imagine changing the font can take more than maybe two days. For the rest? DUST and Incarna? Well I can understand they are taking their time. I too would want to have played those a week ago, but then again, if they really are as awesome as the box on the outside says it is (or will be, rather), then maybe they should take their time. Personally I got a lot of time and can wait. Item DB \| Sigs
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:58:00 - [13] I'm sad that CCP can't dedicate just one of the 17 scrum teams to deal with various outstanding faults. They don't need to do it all at once but at least do SOMETHING.
Tsubutai	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:09:00 - [14] Very disappointing to see CCP state that they will be not be expending any meaningful effort on fixing issues with existing game content for at least 12 - 18 months. Eve is a game of incredible ambition and potential, frustrated by a horde of niggling issues, part-finished content, and poor UI design. Part of what has kept me paying my subscription fees was the belief that CCP were both aware of and intent on fixing these issues - in effect, it was some sort of goodwill payment. The minutes from the recent CSM summit have completely put paid to that particular notion, and with it, a lot of my enthusiasm for the game. Like I said, disappointing.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Zartrader on 13/07/2010 10:21:53 I find this comment strange, assuming it is accurately portrayed: 'It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features' Tell that to the company who has 11 million subscribers. Love or hate the game quality was all and it showed. It was a key part of their player expansion, a lot more than new content. I know of three new trialists who never got past 14 days as they simply refused to fight with the UI.
Hon Dao	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:33:00 - [16] Edited by: Hon Dao on 13/07/2010 10:36:51 Originally by: Zartrader Tell that to the company who has 11 million subscribers. Love or hate the game quality was all and it showed. It was a key part of their player expansion, a lot more than new content. That's a major point in me sticking with that game. The fact that I have 0 issues with the UI, and have been provided with ways to customise it to my way of playing, that aren't reliant on the devs getting off their asses. HCI is a huge issue, and for this game, where we're supposed to be intimately linked with the ships we're piloting, the actual UI is a far cry from that level of connection. CCP may be current with the database and graphics side of the programming, but they have a long way to go to get even close to a reasonably up to date UI (I saw better attempts on early Linux GUIs before the internet made that OS more widespread). While in my opinion Blizzard has sold out and is doing little more than chasing profits these days, at least they bothered to polish the game to a high standard before doing that, and haven't abandoned fixing issues completely. Something else to consider is this: Today Microsoft has ended support for Windows XP SP2. Why am I bringing this up? Because in the time they managed to produce both Vista and 7, they also managed to release comprehensive bug fix patches for their previous product. How many of the major issues in EVE have players wanted to be fixed for years? In fact a time period, long enough to rewrite the entire game from scratch. CCP seriously need to get their priorities straight over polish vs profits, or they may well lose out in the long run. -------------------------------------------------- I could care less about Americans' use of English. Caring = Could care less Not caring = Couldn't care less
Jarnis McPieksu H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:37:00 - [17] Only one "vote" matters at this point. It is the vote you can cast by hitting "cancel subscription". It is clear that CCP thinks that their current (addicted) playerbase is "money in the bank", so they can concentrate on enticing new addicts with pretty new shiny features - including console gamers with their misguided DUST project. Only way CCP beancounters will stop considering existing subscribers as "safe, no need to cater for" is to take away their security blanket. I'd say a sudden large drop of subscribers, especially long-term subscribers (assuming they track such a metric) would do just that. Fixing old bugs is hard, especially if the guy who did the old stuff is no longer around, so you almost certainly need to do a major rewrite and it doesn't look flashy in a press release mail about a new expansion. And no, 6+ months to fix jump lag is not okay. Want to know why people no longer bother to show up for SISI tests? Because there is no visible progress being made based on those tests. Oh, there was a dev blog that explained all kinds of nice performance fixes that have been done to the client - surely good things, except that the ten ton pink elephant that is the utterly borked server code is still in the room, untouched. The game, as it is played in 0.0, has been unplayable ever since Dominion release and CCP fails to take the issue seriously. Topping it all off by basically admitting that they have no intention to devote resources to fixing the broken aspects of EVE for 18+ months while resources go towards making more broken things (incarna, DUST) is just the final nail in the coffin.
Frygok Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:40:00 - [18] Have to say, I am thoroughly disappointed. It's not just the fact that obvious and glaring stuff is being overlooked (rockets, FW, new sov systems), but the fact that lag is not a priority for CCP is scary. For those not knowing, my alliance is currently in Providence. And we get crazy lag and random disconnects in Providence. Often what is considered smaller engagements compared to the big fights, like 30 vs. 40, we get lag. Before Dominion, 900 people fighting in the same system was actually manageable. And now, CCP has basically stated that they can't be bothered trying to go back to what they had going, because they are putting all their resources into walking in station and something I won't be able to play unless I buy a console? This sounds like a very different company than the one who created this game and was in charge when I started.
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Hon Dao Something else to consider is this: Today Microsoft has ended support for Windows XP SP2. Why am I bringing this up? Because in the time they managed to produce both Vista and 7, they also managed to release comprehensive bug fix patches for their previous product. How many of the major issues in EVE have players wanted to be fixed for years? In fact a time period, long enough to rewrite the entire game from scratch. That is a ridiculous argument, Microsoft has how many more programmers in comparison to CCP globally?
Jarnis McPieksu H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Hon Dao Edited by: Hon Dao on 13/07/2010 10:36:51 Originally by: Zartrader Tell that to the company who has 11 million subscribers. Love or hate the game quality was all and it showed. It was a key part of their player expansion, a lot more than new content. That's a major point in me sticking with that game. The fact that I have 0 issues with the UI, and have been provided with ways to customise it to my way of playing, that aren't reliant on the devs getting off their asses. This. There are many things wrong in That Other Game That Must Not Be Named, not the least being the constant drive to dumb everything down and hand out pretty purples to every scrub who doesn't know how to play (and then simplifying everything so even a drooling monkey can play). But UI sure isn't one of them, simply because the developers behind That Other Game haves simply provided the framework for the playerbase to make their own UI. Heck, I consider their offering to be unplayable with the default UI, especially in situations with more than 5 players around. Yet it is a non-issue, because players have fixed that and with a suitable set of addons the UI becomes nearly perfect - and what constitutes as "perfect" depends on the role you play - but that doesn't matter as it is fully customizable. In EVE, it is one-size-fits-all without even the most basic customization options. Of course CCP being resource-starved, even if they'd announce tomorrow that they are going to duplicate the model of That Other Game and provide a flexible and well-maintained LUA API for user created UI, with the intention of taking the best player-made bits and incorporating them to the default setup, it wouldn't materialize for another 12-18 months and it would be unusably broken for another 12-18 months.

RatKnight1 Gallente Mahdi Followers	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:49:00 - [21] I read that whole thing... which was quite painful. I got the impression that CCP has a plan, and that they intend to stick to it. All CSM idea's are basically tossed into a backlog. The part I found particularly interesting was when the CSM asked about getting a team assigned to the CSM backlog, at which point CCP replied "No other stakeholder gets that..." The CSM represents the players, who make the money that allows CCP to hire the programmers. Are we not the most important stakeholders in this game since we play and pay for it? Also, the CSM asked about a fix to low sec, which the only response given was that even though they wanted to fix it at some point, there would be no dedicated time put towards that end. I am okay with them finishing up incarna, but after that, a release focusing strictly on polishing would be a GREAT idea. Rat [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=RatKnight1][/u
FarmerCounter	Posted - 2010.07.13 10:52:00 - [22] Fix problems or invent new features? I prefer the former also but CCP can make the decision themselves. Anyway I can't justify my preference at the moment :)
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:11:00 - [23] The fact they will publically state that "figures" do not support polished products over new features is a pretty clear indication of having lost the plot... and it goes against their very own company policy: Quote: ABOUT US CCP was founded in the summer of 1997 with the goal of becoming a leading massively multiplayer game company. With the launch of EVE Online in May 2003, CCP has established itself as one of the leading companies in the field, winning numerous awards and receiving critical acclaim worldwide. CCP is dedicated to the development of cutting edge massively multiplayer games. CCP is founded on the principle of pushing the envelope and breaking new grounds on all levels. CCP is not about making copycat products with compromised quality. CCP is about making dreams become a reality. Massively multiplayer games are virtual realities. They are about creating experiences unattainable in any other form of media. A virtual reality is about true human interaction and true human emotions in a living and evolving world. It is CCP's belief that massively multiplayer games are the biggest revolution in computer gaming history and CCP is dedicated to make the dream of a true virtual reality come into being. CCP's mission is to attract and retain customers by providing top quality online entertainment. CCP does this by establishing and nurturing a trust relationship with customers both in terms of quality of content as well as quality of service. CCP encourages respect, dialog, interaction and cooperation on a deeper level between its employees and customers than is common in online games. By this and through this CCP provides a unique way for improving the quality of its products and creates an inspiring and challenging environment for talent to thrive. We care more. We work harder That they can even conceive of telling the players "We are not fixing anything for at least 18 months while we shove incarna and dust down your throat (for which we have used all the resources meant for EVE, even though we PROMISED WE WOULD NOT)" is a pretty horrific slap in the face of all the people that pay to play this broken game. Lag is worse than in the previous expansion once again, lingering issues that have been broken for literally YEARS (rockets...) have still gone unaddressed, and CSM as "stakeholder" has proven to be a laugh. This is a PR disaster, these notes published by the CSM showcase the complete disconnected between management and customer, and an utter disregard for the state of their product. shameful.
Hon Dao	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:27:00 - [24] Edited by: Hon Dao on 13/07/2010 11:32:05 Edited by: Hon Dao on 13/07/2010 11:30:21 Originally by: Digital Solaris Originally by: Hon Dao Something else to consider is this: Today Microsoft has ended support for Windows XP SP2. Why am I bringing this up? Because in the time they managed to produce both Vista and 7, they also managed to release comprehensive bug fix patches for their previous product. How many of the major issues in EVE have players wanted to be fixed for years? In fact a time period, long enough to rewrite the entire game from scratch. That is a ridiculous argument, Microsoft has how many more programmers in comparison to CCP globally? Number of programmers is irrelevant. The fact remains that they put a percentage of their programmers to work fixing problems instead of abandoning existing releases to work on future ones. Microsoft's size and sucess is in no doubt in part due to the fact that they can balance between both fixing and features. Originally by: RatKnight1 I am okay with them finishing up incarna, but after that, a release focusing strictly on polishing would be a GREAT idea. It's too bad the expansion model isn't like that for WoW. At least if we were paying for expansions, we could refuse to do so unless they contained something we actually want. CCP saying that our subscriptions pay towards the development of these expansions while completely ignoring what we actually want to be in them, is them taking the ****. -------------------------------------------------- I could care less about Americans' use of English. Caring = Could care less Not caring = Couldn't care less
Radgette	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Natalia Kovac Relevant. Originally by: Helicity on SHC Step 1: found "team batman" Step 2: task team batman with fixing one or two niggling issues a month Step 3: grant team batman the right to say "Because I'm the goddamned batman" to gain access to what ever limited resource they need for their fix (like a specific dev) Step 4: team batman delivers us a monthly mini patch that fixes two small issues Step 5: All bittervets enjoy their rocket vengeances. this get your **ing act together we want fixes not more broken ing shinies. the CSM minutes show just how ****ed your current stance is and how blind you are to the needs of the community not changing the situation ASAP is PR suicide, You gave us this gun ( the minutes ) now stop us from putting the sick horse down by doing something about it
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Radgette Originally by: Natalia Kovac Relevant. Originally by: Helicity on SHC Step 1: found "team batman" Step 2: task team batman with fixing one or two niggling issues a month Step 3: grant team batman the right to say "Because I'm the goddamned batman" to gain access to what ever limited resource they need for their fix (like a specific dev) Step 4: team batman delivers us a monthly mini patch that fixes two small issues Step 5: All bittervets enjoy their rocket vengeances. this get your **ing act together we want fixes not more broken ing shinies. the CSM minutes show just how ****ed your current stance is and how blind you are to the needs of the community not changing the situation ASAP is PR suicide, You gave us this gun ( the minutes ) now stop us from putting the sick horse down by doing something about it Since people are fond of my team Batman plan, I extend an open offer to CCP: You can fly me in, make me the goddamned batman, and I will do it for you. You don't need to pay me, just give me a place to sleep and some food. Its not like I have anything better to do.
Hon Dao	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:43:00 - [27] Edited by: Hon Dao on 13/07/2010 11:48:00 Great idea. I think there are plenty of people playing who have the skills to solve problems in the game, and would be happy to sign an NDA, get very limited access to source code and devs, to work towards patches, all completely unpaid (something to put on a CV would be nice enough). I'm also sure that a lot of these people might actually consider applying to work for CCP, if it wasn't for the fact they'd just get put to work on more unwanted features instead. -------------------------------------------------- I could care less about Americans' use of English. Caring = Could care less Not caring = Couldn't care less
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.13 11:54:00 - [28] Edited by: Helicity Boson on 13/07/2010 11:55:17 Originally by: Hon Dao Edited by: Hon Dao on 13/07/2010 11:49:22 Great idea. I think there are plenty of people playing who have the coding skills to solve problems with the game, and would be happy to sign an NDA, get very limited access to source code and devs (just the parts needed to work on the problems they're solving, to work towards patches, all completely unpaid (something to put on a CV would be nice enough). I'm also sure that a lot of these people might actually consider applying to work for CCP, if it wasn't for the fact they'd just get put to work on more unwanted features instead. you do not even need to know how to program, or ever even look at the source code. You just need the "goddamned batman" (GDB hereafter) to carry a big virtual stick sanctioned by the high ups. Then you let the GDB run wild and find who to whack with the stick for results. I cleared up a support request backlog of about 8000 angry customers, put in place a proper RMA system and essentially tackled a non-existant upgrade structure for a specific region (australia) for a big satnav company I worked for. All by myself. All it took was the right for me to tell whoever i needed "I'm the goddamned batman" and to make them do what I asked along with their regular workload. The problems were resolved in under 2 months.
Brolly Caldari Icarus' Wings	Posted - 2010.07.13 12:15:00 - [29] Thing is, it's not as though eve players have anywhere to go yet, I don't there is another half decent sci-fi mmo on the market that does half of what eve does. Until CCP get some good competition they can happily stroll on doing what they do. Give it another 2 years maybe when black prophecy, jumpgate, star wars MMO and Infinity (vapourware, got there before you did ) and CCP may up the game and get back on form. Until then we'll have to make do or emoquit.
Hon Dao	Posted - 2010.07.13 12:32:00 - [30] There's also developers who have a sense of pride in their work, and would actually like to fix issues, getting fed up with the endless push for new features, who end up leaving to form their own companies where they're free to work to a better standard instead of having some suit make them look bad. -------------------------------------------------- I could care less about Americans' use of English. Caring = Could care less Not caring = Couldn't care less



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