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Forfax Velieris
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Posted - 2010.07.17 16:42:00 -
[1]
To the honoured CSM team. Your understanding of the Agile development method whether deliberate or accidental is music to my product management ears!
You are absolutely 100% correct in saying that there should be fast small changes instead of large changes once resources become available.
If the CSM meeting minutes are a true representation of CCPS dev processes, I would suggest reading up on the agile development method further and offering this proposal to CCP at your next meeting, suggesting they understand what they are trying to achieve by changing their dev methods.
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Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.07.17 19:13:00 -
[2]
Agile development. Akin to adaptive management in environmental affairs? Interesting and helpful concept for this situation.
Delilah
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Baraius
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Posted - 2010.07.18 10:04:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Forfax Velieris
To the honoured CSM team. Your understanding of the Agile development method whether deliberate or accidental is music to my product management ears!
You are absolutely 100% correct in saying that there should be fast small changes instead of large changes once resources become available.
If the CSM meeting minutes are a true representation of CCPS dev processes, I would suggest reading up on the agile development method further and offering this proposal to CCP at your next meeting, suggesting they understand what they are trying to achieve by changing their dev methods.
Being in the business I tend to cut CCP a bit more slack than I think the average customer would, but that was my impression as well. From the outside they appear to simply be doing waterfall with different meeting and reporting requirements.
"Could we have <small change X>?" "No...the right answer is to completely rewrite it and that would take too long." That's a pretty classic anti-pattern that you don't typically see from shops that have internalized Agile.
I am not in the gaming industry, but I am a SaaS veteran and it seems to me that CCP would benefit from smaller more frequent releases, among other Agile principles.
I suspect part of the problem is economics. They get huge bumps on expansion releases and relatively good retention numbers (despite the bugs EVE is a great product).
This is all speculation on my part of course. Our CSM delegates could probably comment with more authority having actually met and interacted with several of the principals.
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Baraius
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Posted - 2010.07.18 10:14:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Baraius on 18/07/2010 10:15:05
Edit: Posting fail.
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mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.18 19:26:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Baraius
Originally by: Forfax Velieris
To the honoured CSM team. Your understanding of the Agile development method whether deliberate or accidental is music to my product management ears!
You are absolutely 100% correct in saying that there should be fast small changes instead of large changes once resources become available.
If the CSM meeting minutes are a true representation of CCPS dev processes, I would suggest reading up on the agile development method further and offering this proposal to CCP at your next meeting, suggesting they understand what they are trying to achieve by changing their dev methods.
Being in the business I tend to cut CCP a bit more slack than I think the average customer would, but that was my impression as well. From the outside they appear to simply be doing waterfall with different meeting and reporting requirements.
"Could we have <small change X>?" "No...the right answer is to completely rewrite it and that would take too long." That's a pretty classic anti-pattern that you don't typically see from shops that have internalized Agile.
I am not in the gaming industry, but I am a SaaS veteran and it seems to me that CCP would benefit from smaller more frequent releases, among other Agile principles.
I suspect part of the problem is economics. They get huge bumps on expansion releases and relatively good retention numbers (despite the bugs EVE is a great product).
This is all speculation on my part of course. Our CSM delegates could probably comment with more authority having actually met and interacted with several of the principals.
ccp used to do "waterfall"
and yes "we'd rather overhaul the entire thing rather than make these changes" is a pretty common response by ccp to csm issues for broken stuff such as poses and evemail
i am not really a management sort of person and don't really know all that fancy lingo, but those are my observations. also i think that overhauling response could be due to the original writers of the system leaving CCP and everyone else being afraid to touch their code. it's no secret that their pay isn't the best and i wouldn't be surprised if their more talented programmers get headhunted.
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Baraius
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Posted - 2010.07.19 15:24:00 -
[6]
Sorry mazzilliu. Your lack of forum badge causes me to instinctively discount anything you say.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.07.19 16:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Baraius
Sorry mazzilliu. Your lack of forum badge causes me to instinctively discount anything you say.
Says the man who doesn't even have his corp tag showing 
á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
Hashmir Zavala
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:59:00 -
[8]
Yeah, when I read about CCP's responses from the summit, I couldn't help but think of this comic:
Agile gone wrong
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Baraius
Gallente
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.20 10:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Baraius
Sorry mazzilliu. Your lack of forum badge causes me to instinctively discount anything you say.
Says the man who doesn't even have his corp tag showing
*notes Sokratesz official looking forum badge*
Yes sir. Right away. All tags enabled.
<gratuitousSig name="Baraius"/> |
Baraius
Gallente
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.20 11:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: mazzilliu
i am not really a management sort of person and don't really know all that fancy lingo, but those are my observations. also i think that overhauling response could be due to the original writers of the system leaving CCP and everyone else being afraid to touch their code. it's no secret that their pay isn't the best and i wouldn't be surprised if their more talented programmers get headhunted.
Traditionally you would start building out unit tests for those sections of code so you would have some confidence around going in and changing/refactoring. I suspect, though, that paying down technical debt meets the same objection as feature polishing (or even worse as it is essentially invisible to the paying customers).
The other troubling thing I noted from the CSM minutes is the constant refrain of "expectations management". Your typical Agile response to this (at least for internal constituencies) would be transparency. You publish the stack ranked list of things you're working on and update that at the end of every sprint. You're always going to have people disappointed but that is mitigated somewhat by over communication.
Now obviously CCP feels some of the details are market sensitive, but I suspect this could be mitigated somewhat by either only listing polish/bug fix items or simply changing descriptions for external purposes something like "Winter Expansion feature 4321".
<gratuitousSig name="Baraius"/> |
Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Citadel Enterprise
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Posted - 2010.07.31 06:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Forfax Velieris
To the honoured CSM team. Your understanding of the Agile development method whether deliberate or accidental is music to my product management ears!
You are absolutely 100% correct in saying that there should be fast small changes instead of large changes once resources become available.
If the CSM meeting minutes are a true representation of CCPS dev processes, I would suggest reading up on the agile development method further and offering this proposal to CCP at your next meeting, suggesting they understand what they are trying to achieve by changing their dev methods.
The Scrum methodology is quite complex and since it's not mature yet, I would expect that CCP is still getting used to this new way of managing development.
"Option 1) effective yes, but also risky and a 300 pound Gorilla on the Product Owner/Scrum Masters shoulders. If he is a 30-year old Marathon runner with murder in his eyes it might work, but /snip"
This is a quote from the blog: "Scrum and Royalty - burning backlog" on the use of Scrum alone i.e. without having more formal project management procedures in place.
__________________________
Citadel Enterprise - private military corporations and blog about EVE |
Virtuozzo
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.08.02 11:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
Originally by: Forfax Velieris
To the honoured CSM team. Your understanding of the Agile development method whether deliberate or accidental is music to my product management ears!
You are absolutely 100% correct in saying that there should be fast small changes instead of large changes once resources become available.
If the CSM meeting minutes are a true representation of CCPS dev processes, I would suggest reading up on the agile development method further and offering this proposal to CCP at your next meeting, suggesting they understand what they are trying to achieve by changing their dev methods.
The Scrum methodology is quite complex and since it's not mature yet, I would expect that CCP is still getting used to this new way of managing development.
"Option 1) effective yes, but also risky and a 300 pound Gorilla on the Product Owner/Scrum Masters shoulders. If he is a 30-year old Marathon runner with murder in his eyes it might work, but /snip"
This is a quote from the blog: "Scrum and Royalty - burning backlog" on the use of Scrum alone i.e. without having more formal project management procedures in place.
Well, look on the bright side, August 10 at GDC Alli Ottarsson from CCP is going to explain it all.
Quote:
Session Description
CCP Technical Producer Adalsteinn Ottarsson will share CCP's experiences applying agile game development methods and scrum to its three main large-scale development efforts, including challenges encountered and overcome, and how it now shapes the companyÆs global organizational strategy. The presentation will include a look at the most recent EVE Online expansion, Tyrannis, and offer a candid view of the issues that resulted in a one-week delay of the product launch and how to avoid repeating the same mistakes in the future. Ottarsson will then offer developers guidance in determining how to best put agile development into practice.
≡v≡ once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
Now all that's left, serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna. |
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