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Yet another missile change proposal.

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Tenris Anis	Posted - 2004.12.20 00:50:00 - [31] Originally by: JoeSomebody defenders dont slow u down anymore + fit rocket launcher (10 charges, but 2 sec firerate omg, wtf bbq) = problem solved, stfu plz.... Some mission npcs already abuse defenders too much (try doing the thief mission in caracal), now u want me to go and train amarr skill just so u will be happy? Defenders have still problems with their targeting, as they a player as not much options, and often several defenders try to shoot down the same missile. they should tag instantly a missile fired on as "dealed with it already" and target the next one. than they would be the ultimate answer against missiles (and raven pilots would yawn at them badly) Imo, the best solution would be to add ptp defense lasers for armarr, make defenders fof which serach automatic for hostile missiles and increase hp of the bigger missiles like torps. Oh, and lower the speed for cruiser missiles abit. So you can even kestrel render a raven close to useless if its fit launchers only. Sounds about right in my ears, as a counter against a ship sould be effektive. Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. Aswell defenders should be cable of targeting other defenders, just like point-to-point defense.
Tenris Anis	Posted - 2004.12.20 00:50:00 - [32] Originally by: JoeSomebody defenders dont slow u down anymore + fit rocket launcher (10 charges, but 2 sec firerate omg, wtf bbq) = problem solved, stfu plz.... Some mission npcs already abuse defenders too much (try doing the thief mission in caracal), now u want me to go and train amarr skill just so u will be happy? Defenders have still problems with their targeting, as they a player as not much options, and often several defenders try to shoot down the same missile. they should tag instantly a missile fired on as "dealed with it already" and target the next one. than they would be the ultimate answer against missiles (and raven pilots would yawn at them badly) Imo, the best solution would be to add ptp defense lasers for armarr, make defenders fof which serach automatic for hostile missiles and increase hp of the bigger missiles like torps. Oh, and lower the speed for cruiser missiles abit. So you can even kestrel render a raven close to useless if its fit launchers only. Sounds about right in my ears, as a counter against a ship sould be effektive. Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. Aswell defenders should be cable of targeting other defenders, just like point-to-point defense.
Phoebe McCeres	Posted - 2004.12.20 00:53:00 - [33] It SHOULD take 10 torps to kill a frigate. Simply because it also takes at least 10 shots from any other battleship gun to kill one. Torpedoes are big, slow, massive damage weapons that are intended to be used on large stationary targets. Don't blame the weapon if it can't hit a target it wasn't designed to hit. The only change I see needed for missiles is the smallest missile should have the highest speed. And the new intercept ability should be removed (CCP has already admitted this was a bug).
Phoebe McCeres	Posted - 2004.12.20 00:53:00 - [34] It SHOULD take 10 torps to kill a frigate. Simply because it also takes at least 10 shots from any other battleship gun to kill one. Torpedoes are big, slow, massive damage weapons that are intended to be used on large stationary targets. Don't blame the weapon if it can't hit a target it wasn't designed to hit. The only change I see needed for missiles is the smallest missile should have the highest speed. And the new intercept ability should be removed (CCP has already admitted this was a bug).
Tullaris Iceblade	Posted - 2004.12.20 00:59:00 - [35] Originally by: Phoebe McCeres It SHOULD take 10 torps to kill a frigate. Simply because it also takes at least 10 shots from any other battleship gun to kill one. Torpedoes are big, slow, massive damage weapons that are intended to be used on large stationary targets. Don't blame the weapon if it can't hit a target it wasn't designed to hit. The only change I see needed for missiles is the smallest missile should have the highest speed. And the new intercept ability should be removed (CCP has already admitted this was a bug). LOL 10 hits u say ur not doing much dmg then and besides guns fire a fk load faster this torp is like a nuclear missile ffs it should at least be able to take down an indy in 2 shots -=The meaning of life is but a hole in ur hull=-
Tullaris Iceblade	Posted - 2004.12.20 00:59:00 - [36] Originally by: Phoebe McCeres It SHOULD take 10 torps to kill a frigate. Simply because it also takes at least 10 shots from any other battleship gun to kill one. Torpedoes are big, slow, massive damage weapons that are intended to be used on large stationary targets. Don't blame the weapon if it can't hit a target it wasn't designed to hit. The only change I see needed for missiles is the smallest missile should have the highest speed. And the new intercept ability should be removed (CCP has already admitted this was a bug). LOL 10 hits u say ur not doing much dmg then and besides guns fire a fk load faster this torp is like a nuclear missile ffs it should at least be able to take down an indy in 2 shots -=The meaning of life is but a hole in ur hull=-
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Tenris Anis Defenders have still problems with their targeting, as they a player as not much options, and often several defenders try to shoot down the same missile. with 2 seconds delay between shots from rocket launcher i think u can afford that loss Quote: Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. traget lil kessy between dozens of huge ships (which constantly doin dmg to you) isnt that easy.... even if you lose 3-4 kessy - pffff... big deal... buy another for 300k, outfit with basic modules, and there u go again ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Tenris Anis Defenders have still problems with their targeting, as they a player as not much options, and often several defenders try to shoot down the same missile. with 2 seconds delay between shots from rocket launcher i think u can afford that loss Quote: Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. traget lil kessy between dozens of huge ships (which constantly doin dmg to you) isnt that easy.... even if you lose 3-4 kessy - pffff... big deal... buy another for 300k, outfit with basic modules, and there u go again ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
Tenris Anis	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:21:00 - [39] Originally by: JoeSomebody Quote: Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. traget lil kessy between dozens of huge ships (which constantly doin dmg to you) isnt that easy.... even if you lose 3-4 kessy - pffff... big deal... buy another for 300k, outfit with basic modules, and there u go again Hey, I added this a plus, cause it added something to battles.
Tenris Anis	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:21:00 - [40] Originally by: JoeSomebody Quote: Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. traget lil kessy between dozens of huge ships (which constantly doin dmg to you) isnt that easy.... even if you lose 3-4 kessy - pffff... big deal... buy another for 300k, outfit with basic modules, and there u go again Hey, I added this a plus, cause it added something to battles.

JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Tenris Anis Originally by: JoeSomebody Quote: Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. traget lil kessy between dozens of huge ships (which constantly doin dmg to you) isnt that easy.... even if you lose 3-4 kessy - pffff... big deal... buy another for 300k, outfit with basic modules, and there u go again Hey, I added this a plus, cause it added something to battles. ahh, sorrry, i missunderstood you then ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:27:00 - [42] Originally by: Tenris Anis Originally by: JoeSomebody Quote: Any Anti-Missile ship would be primary target in fleet battles if one side uses mainly missiles. traget lil kessy between dozens of huge ships (which constantly doin dmg to you) isnt that easy.... even if you lose 3-4 kessy - pffff... big deal... buy another for 300k, outfit with basic modules, and there u go again Hey, I added this a plus, cause it added something to battles. ahh, sorrry, i missunderstood you then ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
Kendar Zek	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:58:00 - [43] When there's a single battleship with one setup (a Raven missile boat) that EVERY player thinks is the best, that's a sure sign there's a serious imbalance. CCP needs to get someone up to the plate with a nerf bat to swat the invincible missiles.
Kendar Zek	Posted - 2004.12.20 01:58:00 - [44] When there's a single battleship with one setup (a Raven missile boat) that EVERY player thinks is the best, that's a sure sign there's a serious imbalance. CCP needs to get someone up to the plate with a nerf bat to swat the invincible missiles.
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 02:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Kendar Zek When there's a single battleship with one setup (a Raven missile boat) that EVERY player thinks is the best, that's a sure sign there's a serious imbalance. CCP needs to get someone up to the plate with a nerf bat to swat the invincible missiles. are u dumb or didnt read previous posts? missles invincible? Are you aware that a single kessy can render at least one Reaven totaly useless? Noooo.... you prefer to whine so you can stick with single setup against everything.... ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 02:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Kendar Zek When there's a single battleship with one setup (a Raven missile boat) that EVERY player thinks is the best, that's a sure sign there's a serious imbalance. CCP needs to get someone up to the plate with a nerf bat to swat the invincible missiles. are u dumb or didnt read previous posts? missles invincible? Are you aware that a single kessy can render at least one Reaven totaly useless? Noooo.... you prefer to whine so you can stick with single setup against everything.... ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
Kendar Zek	Posted - 2004.12.20 02:40:00 - [47] Edited by: Kendar Zek on 20/12/2004 02:40:35 Originally by: JoeSomebodyare u dumb or didnt read previous posts? missles invincible? Are you aware that a single kessy can render at least one Reaven totaly useless? Noooo.... you prefer to whine so you can stick with single setup against everything.... Don't get your panties in a bunch. I don't play against other people, simply because of imbalance issues like this. Nevertheless, it's still a problem that needs to be addressed. You've named one ship that can shut down a Raven's missiles. The question still remains as to whether that same ship is still viable in combat, or if it can ONLY be used to suppress an overpowered missile boat. The fact of the matter is that missiles are not conforming to the original design models that differentiate them from each other. I stand by my comment that when a majority of battleship pilots all want a Raven with a heavy missile loadout, it should raise some suspicions amongst the developers. As a non-PvP player, it's a neutral observation from my perspective.
Kendar Zek	Posted - 2004.12.20 02:40:00 - [48] Edited by: Kendar Zek on 20/12/2004 02:40:35 Originally by: JoeSomebodyare u dumb or didnt read previous posts? missles invincible? Are you aware that a single kessy can render at least one Reaven totaly useless? Noooo.... you prefer to whine so you can stick with single setup against everything.... Don't get your panties in a bunch. I don't play against other people, simply because of imbalance issues like this. Nevertheless, it's still a problem that needs to be addressed. You've named one ship that can shut down a Raven's missiles. The question still remains as to whether that same ship is still viable in combat, or if it can ONLY be used to suppress an overpowered missile boat. The fact of the matter is that missiles are not conforming to the original design models that differentiate them from each other. I stand by my comment that when a majority of battleship pilots all want a Raven with a heavy missile loadout, it should raise some suspicions amongst the developers. As a non-PvP player, it's a neutral observation from my perspective.
Selim	Posted - 2004.12.20 03:11:00 - [49] Edited by: Selim on 20/12/2004 03:30:55 Originally by: JoeSomebody Originally by: Kendar Zek When there's a single battleship with one setup (a Raven missile boat) that EVERY player thinks is the best, that's a sure sign there's a serious imbalance. CCP needs to get someone up to the plate with a nerf bat to swat the invincible missiles. are u dumb or didnt read previous posts? missles invincible? Are you aware that a single kessy can render at least one Reaven totaly useless? Noooo.... you prefer to whine so you can stick with single setup against everything.... Err. No? Since defenders only track missiles fired against you, not your gangmates too. Rocket launchers take up a missile slot, a missile user doesn't have to waste hislots to neutralize a turret ship's firepower with a tracking disruptor, although nobody really uses them. edit: and now it takes 2 defenders to destroy a torpedo. Making defenders an absolute waste.
Selim	Posted - 2004.12.20 03:11:00 - [50] Edited by: Selim on 20/12/2004 03:30:55 Originally by: JoeSomebody Originally by: Kendar Zek When there's a single battleship with one setup (a Raven missile boat) that EVERY player thinks is the best, that's a sure sign there's a serious imbalance. CCP needs to get someone up to the plate with a nerf bat to swat the invincible missiles. are u dumb or didnt read previous posts? missles invincible? Are you aware that a single kessy can render at least one Reaven totaly useless? Noooo.... you prefer to whine so you can stick with single setup against everything.... Err. No? Since defenders only track missiles fired against you, not your gangmates too. Rocket launchers take up a missile slot, a missile user doesn't have to waste hislots to neutralize a turret ship's firepower with a tracking disruptor, although nobody really uses them. edit: and now it takes 2 defenders to destroy a torpedo. Making defenders an absolute waste.

JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 03:33:00 - [51] Selim Kendar Zek dont like kessy? ok... Cant you fit a rocket launcher into any other ship? Noooo.... you just like to do it the hard way, dont you... Sure u replace a big ass gun with that, so you gonna lose against non-missle ship with similar setup, but isnt the original point is that one should not expect to beat everything with same setup? ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2004.12.20 03:33:00 - [52] Selim Kendar Zek dont like kessy? ok... Cant you fit a rocket launcher into any other ship? Noooo.... you just like to do it the hard way, dont you... Sure u replace a big ass gun with that, so you gonna lose against non-missle ship with similar setup, but isnt the original point is that one should not expect to beat everything with same setup? ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
Roger DaCabinboy	Posted - 2004.12.20 06:21:00 - [53] Originally by: siim What ? U have a Raven and want it to be nerfed ? thats weird if it would make e 6 torps to kill a ceptor most ppl would quit the game No its not so strange, I fly a Raven, I know missiles are going to be nerfed one way or another so, I try to suggest a nerf that I think i could live with. Some of the previous suggestions where for a hard damage cap when hitting frigs with large missile types, this I could not live with and would be totally unbalanced. But reduced damage when hitting a frig at close range I could live with as it is balanced compared with large turrets. I do think however that as and when they nerf missiles they should give the raven 8 launcher hardpoints so Raven pilots get to fit a useful anti frig defense "like nearly all other BS".
Roger DaCabinboy	Posted - 2004.12.20 06:21:00 - [54] Originally by: siim What ? U have a Raven and want it to be nerfed ? thats weird if it would make e 6 torps to kill a ceptor most ppl would quit the game No its not so strange, I fly a Raven, I know missiles are going to be nerfed one way or another so, I try to suggest a nerf that I think i could live with. Some of the previous suggestions where for a hard damage cap when hitting frigs with large missile types, this I could not live with and would be totally unbalanced. But reduced damage when hitting a frig at close range I could live with as it is balanced compared with large turrets. I do think however that as and when they nerf missiles they should give the raven 8 launcher hardpoints so Raven pilots get to fit a useful anti frig defense "like nearly all other BS".
Virgil Samms	Posted - 2004.12.20 08:37:00 - [55] Wow, not another 'Lets Nerf the mssiles and prevent Caldari characters from playing' Thread. Some good points, some bad points, some stupid points above. Questions: 1/ What is the major problem with missiles? 2/ What do we do about it? 3/ Does this apply to all missiles? Answers: 1/ It appears, (if you ignore the people that just hate missiles cos they dont have them), that the problem most people have is the largest missiles hit the smallest targets for max damage. This does seem to be unbalanced when you relate it to guns however there is a counter-point to this which we can discuss in a minute. 2/ Reduce the damage done to smaller targets depending on whether they have the speed and/or agility to 'dodge' the missile. Torpedoes do splash damage so there is still a chance that your frigate would get killed by a torp if you were still in its blast radius. 3/ No: The smaller the missile the harder its going to be to dodge. Missiles aren't dumb. They can track so the smaller the missile the easier its going to be for them to catch a smaller ship. Okay the counter-arguments. How do you stop a 1400mm howitzer from hitting your Raven, or a dual 150mm rail from hitting your Thorax? You dont. You fit hardners to reduce the damage done but thats about it. How do you stop missiles. Well obviously you still have the hardner option to reduce the damage done, you have the defender option, (if you can fit launchers), and you have the smartbomb option. So there you have a straight forward 'nerf' if you want to call it that, for missiles. No other weapon in the game has a counter weapon for it like missiles. Whilst we are on the topic of Turrets, Hardeners, etc, how often do you see this 'You Devastator Cruise missile hits wrecking for 975 damage'? Never! The missile hits for its damage with your skill multipliers and thats it. Another argument. A Raven has only 6 launcher hardpoints, a Scorp has 4. An apoc has 8 Turret points, 'Geddon 7. A 'Thron has 7 Turret points. So the Raven is already limited because it can only fit 6 x its major weapon. EW modules in the other 2 high slots have limited use as the Raven's best tactic is sit at longer range to fire off. Another Argument. Large Missile Launchers are SLOW!! To really get the launcher rate down to anything reasonable you need a shed load of skill points and a good number of ballistic control modules. This limits you with regard to tanking modules, ew modules, chargers etc, which the Raven is already limited with anyway due to it not having 7 or 8 slots in low and medium. Argument to the Argument Target Dampening, ECM etc. Here is a place where any missile boat has an advantage. Even when damped there is still FoF missiles. However these are untargeted and have reduced damage so not such a great advantage after all if there is more than 1 ship involved. Anyway, all I am saying is that we should look at ALL the points when we start talking about nerfing missiles. It appears that the main thing people are after who start these threads is just to be able to shoot Ravens with any load out they please and not have to think about what they are actually going after. Yes obviously there are advantages to missiles but there are also plenty of disadvantages as well. Lets put everything on the table in these discussions shall we, otherwise all we will end up with is all the disadvantages after all the advantages have been taken away.
Virgil Samms	Posted - 2004.12.20 08:37:00 - [56] Wow, not another 'Lets Nerf the mssiles and prevent Caldari characters from playing' Thread. Some good points, some bad points, some stupid points above. Questions: 1/ What is the major problem with missiles? 2/ What do we do about it? 3/ Does this apply to all missiles? Answers: 1/ It appears, (if you ignore the people that just hate missiles cos they dont have them), that the problem most people have is the largest missiles hit the smallest targets for max damage. This does seem to be unbalanced when you relate it to guns however there is a counter-point to this which we can discuss in a minute. 2/ Reduce the damage done to smaller targets depending on whether they have the speed and/or agility to 'dodge' the missile. Torpedoes do splash damage so there is still a chance that your frigate would get killed by a torp if you were still in its blast radius. 3/ No: The smaller the missile the harder its going to be to dodge. Missiles aren't dumb. They can track so the smaller the missile the easier its going to be for them to catch a smaller ship. Okay the counter-arguments. How do you stop a 1400mm howitzer from hitting your Raven, or a dual 150mm rail from hitting your Thorax? You dont. You fit hardners to reduce the damage done but thats about it. How do you stop missiles. Well obviously you still have the hardner option to reduce the damage done, you have the defender option, (if you can fit launchers), and you have the smartbomb option. So there you have a straight forward 'nerf' if you want to call it that, for missiles. No other weapon in the game has a counter weapon for it like missiles. Whilst we are on the topic of Turrets, Hardeners, etc, how often do you see this 'You Devastator Cruise missile hits wrecking for 975 damage'? Never! The missile hits for its damage with your skill multipliers and thats it. Another argument. A Raven has only 6 launcher hardpoints, a Scorp has 4. An apoc has 8 Turret points, 'Geddon 7. A 'Thron has 7 Turret points. So the Raven is already limited because it can only fit 6 x its major weapon. EW modules in the other 2 high slots have limited use as the Raven's best tactic is sit at longer range to fire off. Another Argument. Large Missile Launchers are SLOW!! To really get the launcher rate down to anything reasonable you need a shed load of skill points and a good number of ballistic control modules. This limits you with regard to tanking modules, ew modules, chargers etc, which the Raven is already limited with anyway due to it not having 7 or 8 slots in low and medium. Argument to the Argument Target Dampening, ECM etc. Here is a place where any missile boat has an advantage. Even when damped there is still FoF missiles. However these are untargeted and have reduced damage so not such a great advantage after all if there is more than 1 ship involved. Anyway, all I am saying is that we should look at ALL the points when we start talking about nerfing missiles. It appears that the main thing people are after who start these threads is just to be able to shoot Ravens with any load out they please and not have to think about what they are actually going after. Yes obviously there are advantages to missiles but there are also plenty of disadvantages as well. Lets put everything on the table in these discussions shall we, otherwise all we will end up with is all the disadvantages after all the advantages have been taken away.
Slayer Ceetesh	Posted - 2004.12.20 19:52:00 - [57] Edited by: Slayer Ceetesh on 20/12/2004 19:53:36 Didn't missiles used to be laughed at because they hit asteriods and gates and anything that was in between them and the target including stations with battleships hiding behind them Also missile nerfs might bring the Raven pilots back down to earth but what effect will they have on kestrels and other missile boats including a few popular typhoon setups the other question is why did the latest BDC video have mainly Armageddons and Megathrons in their battle groups if Ravens are so uber simple lasers guns = instant damage Crows can still warp scramble a raven by spitting out defenders so can rifters Also whats the next nerf energy nuetralizers and Nosfertus thought they would worry a frigate more as there is no counter to them what about frigates vs drones suggested Missile fix make the big missiles a bit slower for POS or Slow moving battleship bombarding just get rid of the ravens missile velocity bonus give it a damage one or a flight time one http://www.freewebs.com/cfs-navy
Slayer Ceetesh	Posted - 2004.12.20 19:52:00 - [58] Edited by: Slayer Ceetesh on 20/12/2004 19:53:36 Didn't missiles used to be laughed at because they hit asteriods and gates and anything that was in between them and the target including stations with battleships hiding behind them Also missile nerfs might bring the Raven pilots back down to earth but what effect will they have on kestrels and other missile boats including a few popular typhoon setups the other question is why did the latest BDC video have mainly Armageddons and Megathrons in their battle groups if Ravens are so uber simple lasers guns = instant damage Crows can still warp scramble a raven by spitting out defenders so can rifters Also whats the next nerf energy nuetralizers and Nosfertus thought they would worry a frigate more as there is no counter to them what about frigates vs drones suggested Missile fix make the big missiles a bit slower for POS or Slow moving battleship bombarding just get rid of the ravens missile velocity bonus give it a damage one or a flight time one http://www.freewebs.com/cfs-navy
Shade Widow	Posted - 2004.12.20 20:21:00 - [59] Would be intresting to have 2 kestrels using 4 defender missile slots and max speed mods with overdrives and burner in a fleet battle. Have the kestrels orbit the larger ships (on your side) and just spew out defenders. Should make the enemy a bit less leathal... ---
Shade Widow	Posted - 2004.12.20 20:21:00 - [60] Would be intresting to have 2 kestrels using 4 defender missile slots and max speed mods with overdrives and burner in a fleet battle. Have the kestrels orbit the larger ships (on your side) and just spew out defenders. Should make the enemy a bit less leathal... ---



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