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Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 236	Posted - 2012.07.22 22:14:00 - [1] - Quote I was watching the AT and was fascinated by the abilities of the Vargurs (yeah, they didn't win). Anyway, I have not looked up the fits used (should be available soon on the kb's), but did my own fiddling. I am pretty sure the guys flying these ships have something even better. Following is a 1% over on CPU and 1% over on grid, but pretty sure that can be fiddled with. DPS = 1000 plus Tank (alone) = 1836 (no heat) Add Crystal set = 2791 Add Top End Vulture = 5013 Add Overheat = 7300. Sure, that is a very short term tank until the ASB runs out of boosters, but for a minute...wow. [Vargur, ASB's] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II EM Ward Amplifier II Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Ancillary Current Router I Hammerhead II x5
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 230	Posted - 2012.07.22 22:40:00 - [2] - Quote They won, didn't respect the power of the Sentinel is all ... The ASB has been outed as being 'broken' in its current form in quite a lot of threads though .. stupidly powerful with no real downside. Why do you think that the Cyclone hulls have been abused so heavily in this tourny .. sure projectiles are out of whack but no way that alone can explain the Mime dominance. CCP broke it .. again.
chris elliot EG CORP Talocan United 29	Posted - 2012.07.22 22:46:00 - [3] - Quote Did the legwork for you. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17021527 Also, ASB's are fine. Get some cheese to go with your whine and adapt.
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 236	Posted - 2012.07.22 22:47:00 - [4] - Quote Veshta Yoshida wrote: They won, didn't respect the power of the Sentinel is all ... The ASB has been outed as being 'broken' in its current form in quite a lot of threads though .. stupidly powerful with no real downside. Why do you think that the Cyclone hulls have been abused so heavily in this tourny .. sure projectiles are out of whack but no way that alone can explain the Mime dominance. CCP broke it .. again. I dunno...I did not see many commentators or CCP employees discussing a nerf of them. Not that I don't agree with you, but given all the stuff they were talking about doing, I don't see nerf of these on the horizon.
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 236	Posted - 2012.07.22 22:51:00 - [5] - Quote chris elliot wrote: Did the legwork for you. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17021527 Also, ASB's are fine. Get some cheese to go with your whine and adapt. Thanks for the link. And for the record, not whining, just running numbers.
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant 77	Posted - 2012.07.22 23:58:00 - [6] - Quote Yes, because ASBs are OP.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 230	Posted - 2012.07.23 00:02:00 - [7] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: I dunno...I did not see many commentators or CCP employees discussing a nerf of them. Not that I don't agree with you, but given all the stuff they were talking about doing, I don't see nerf of these on the horizon. EveTv "experts" are all null-bears whose primary function in life is to ensure the status quo is not disturbed .. pay them no mind Want to know why/how the ASB is broken? Does not matter what size charge one has loaded, the boost amount is the same. Imagine if your car (presuming you have one, which I don't ) performed the same no matter which hydrocarbon you poured into it .. be it vegetable oil or refined jet fuel .. now take that broken P.O.S. to a race track and try to get it enrolled. Wasn't thought through. Scary bit is that it was brought up during testing and ignored .. has skewed the balance in Eve even further making Mime so stupidly superior that we will see little else than rust (more than now, less than 100%) in space until it is sorted.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 135	Posted - 2012.07.23 01:26:00 - [8] - Quote I can fit the same round in a 1400mm arty as I can a 800mm ac. guns are broken!!!!
Batelle French Defence Union 94	Posted - 2012.07.23 02:24:00 - [9] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Veshta Yoshida wrote: They won, didn't respect the power of the Sentinel is all ... The ASB has been outed as being 'broken' in its current form in quite a lot of threads though .. stupidly powerful with no real downside. Why do you think that the Cyclone hulls have been abused so heavily in this tourny .. sure projectiles are out of whack but no way that alone can explain the Mime dominance. CCP broke it .. again. I dunno...I did not see many commentators or CCP employees discussing a nerf of them. Not that I don't agree with you, but given all the stuff they were talking about doing, I don't see nerf of these on the horizon. I would hardly expect CCP devs to comment off-handedly on a balancing change during a live event. The Golem - The "Meh" of Marauders
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1656	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:29:00 - [10] - Quote Batelle wrote: Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Veshta Yoshida wrote: They won, didn't respect the power of the Sentinel is all ... The ASB has been outed as being 'broken' in its current form in quite a lot of threads though .. stupidly powerful with no real downside. Why do you think that the Cyclone hulls have been abused so heavily in this tourny .. sure projectiles are out of whack but no way that alone can explain the Mime dominance. CCP broke it .. again. I dunno...I did not see many commentators or CCP employees discussing a nerf of them. Not that I don't agree with you, but given all the stuff they were talking about doing, I don't see nerf of these on the horizon. I would hardly expect CCP devs to comment off-handedly on a balancing change during a live event. They did for damps.... that was when damps were nerfed into oblivion. -Liang Ed: I have to wonder what the hell they thought was going to happen when they nerfed damps by 30-40% effectiveness at the same time they cut the module in half with scripts. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Teemo Is-OP Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.07.23 06:27:00 - [11] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: chris elliot wrote: Did the legwork for you. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17021527 Also, ASB's are fine. Get some cheese to go with your whine and adapt. Thanks for the link. And for the record, not whining, just running numbers. They aren't gonna discuss "the new ASB are so OP, and broken, and thats why everybody's using them" during ATX when they are streaming it on Own3d trying to get some PR to non EVE players. That sounds like a great idea! but yea CCP decided to have a brain and keep their mouths shut for the event.
Orakkus The Fancy Hats Corporation 68	Posted - 2012.07.23 16:30:00 - [12] - Quote ASB aren't overpowered. They just work REALLY well in this particular circumstance. They do have some sizeable weaknesses. ASB weaknesses: 1. Completely open to Alpha strikes. 2. The ships that have the "shield boost bonus" are mainly Minmatar ships, which usually have one less midslot than comparible Caldari ships. 3. 60 second reload speed, so it cannot take sustained strikes without support. 4. Overall effectiveness of tank now also has to include available cargo space. Some look at the ability to get the same boost from 400s as it does from 800s as an overpowered feature. After actual combat testing, using a Cyclone (which I consider the Minmatar "tanking" battlecruiser) going against a Hurricane, it was ONLY because of the Navy 400s that I was able to hold my ground against the Hurricane. 400s and Navy 800s just didn't give me the staying power that I need. That's not overpowered, that is just about right. The whole point of the ASB module was to make it competative against buffer tanks which have become to "rule" of Eve Online. Since buffer tanks are simply so effective, it is a difficult target for the active tanking concept to surmount. The X-Large ASBs were DESIGNED to use the lesser charges, and only have the option of higher charges for convienence of use.
X Gallentius Justified Chaos 320	Posted - 2012.07.23 16:44:00 - [13] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: I dunno...I did not see many commentators or CCP employees discussing a nerf of them. Not that I don't agree with you, but given all the stuff they were talking about doing, I don't see nerf of these on the horizon. Not directly. The did, however, limit each ship to using only one ASB. The dual ASB fitted ships are extremely tough to take down.
Bill Serkoff2 Tachyon Technology 23	Posted - 2012.07.23 17:17:00 - [14] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I can fit the same round in a 1400mm arty as I can a 800mm ac. guns are broken!!!! For the record, I do think that's a pretty pants-on-head-******** mechanic. EVE should go World of Tanks style and have different caliber munitions. "The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " *-Iam Widdershins*
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 115	Posted - 2012.07.23 18:39:00 - [15] - Quote http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=16938205#comments Duel ASB. Massive tank. This pilot had Links, Crystals, Drugs. And he knows how to fly that ship well. The trouble he had was the Falcon. And that is the downfall of all the Marauders. edit here: Link goes to the comments and not the actual KM. But you can navigate from there.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1659	Posted - 2012.07.23 21:45:00 - [16] - Quote Bill Serkoff2 wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I can fit the same round in a 1400mm arty as I can a 800mm ac. guns are broken!!!! For the record, I do think that's a pretty pants-on-head-******** mechanic. EVE should go World of Tanks style and have different caliber munitions. The funny thing is that Eve is in the process of becoming more approachable - not less. Besides, you have your wish for T2 ammo and various weapon sizes/calibers (sm/med/large) -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide. 718	Posted - 2012.07.23 23:32:00 - [17] - Quote Bill Serkoff2 wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I can fit the same round in a 1400mm arty as I can a 800mm ac. guns are broken!!!! EVE should go World of Tanks style, where stuff explodes under fire in pretty reasonable timeframe. Yeah. 14
Bill Serkoff2 Tachyon Technology 24	Posted - 2012.07.24 02:07:00 - [18] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Bill Serkoff2 wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I can fit the same round in a 1400mm arty as I can a 800mm ac. guns are broken!!!! For the record, I do think that's a pretty pants-on-head-******** mechanic. EVE should go World of Tanks style and have different caliber munitions. The funny thing is that Eve is in the process of becoming more approachable - not less. Besides, you have your wish for T2 ammo and various weapon sizes/calibers (sm/med/large) -Liang Butbutbutbut it makes no sense "The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " *-Iam Widdershins*
Ravenclaw2kk Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 7	Posted - 2012.07.24 12:50:00 - [19] - Quote I only see people whining about ASBs as now they have to put actual effort and thought into taking ships down that previously melted within seconds. The only thing we don't want with ASBs is more powerful meta versions. Maybe make the current version the T2/Meta 4 item. I do LOTS of pvp in every ship type and we do not get people running around in omgwtfpwn ASB ships. Dual ASB ships generally have very lttle buffer. Even when fitting oversized ones thay are not overly powerful. Frigs that fit them are genrally alpha'd if fitting dual mediums, and a single medium is overcome fairly quickly. Cruisers can generally only fit large ones and again,k the lack of buffer makes them die pretty quickly. If you want a tanky cruiser, people will always fly in a maller over an ASB ship. The strongest one is probably the dual XL-ASB Cyclone, but it's only real use is as bait as you gimp all DPS and have no room utility mods, it's no more overpowered than say the prophecy which can fit a huge buffer tank at expense of DPS. All you have to do is not shoot the bait until last, which really isn't hard. Battleships have a pretty good tank with them, but again, no buffer so as soon as the cap boosters run out, you are screwed. They may last slightly longer than an armour buffer BS, but not by a great amount. TLDR; The only problem with them is people not used to seeing gimped ships actually having a use now.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide. 718	Posted - 2012.07.24 12:57:00 - [20] - Quote Ravenclaw2kk wrote: The only thing we don't want with ASBs is more powerful meta versions. I don't know whether it's possible to come up with a better proof of how OP current ASBs are. 14
Rip Marley The Dakka Delivery Service 6	Posted - 2012.07.24 14:11:00 - [21] - Quote The biggest problem I have with ASB's is that they rep for more than the best deadspace boosters. Meta 1 X-large booster: 5 second activation /450 shield rep per cycle/ 400 cap per boost Tech 2 meta 5 xlarge booster: 5 second activation/ 600 shield rep per cycle/ 400 cap per boost Pith X-type meta 14 Xlarge: 4 second activation / 840 shield rep per cycle/ 400 cap per boost ASB meta 1 Xlarge booster: 4 second activation / 980 shield rep per cycle /400 cap per boost (cap charge) As you can see, the ASB is giving meta 15ish level efficiency in a relatively cheap meta 1 module. If the meta 1 ASB had similar throughput to a meta 1 normal shield booster, it would be fine. Then they could introduce T2, faction and deadspace variants that ramp up to what the current one does, with the appropriate increase in price for this kind of performance.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide. 718	Posted - 2012.07.24 14:28:00 - [22] - Quote Rip Marley wrote: The biggest problem I have with ASB's is that they rep for more than the best deadspace boosters. If the meta 1 ASB had similar throughput to a meta 1 normal shield booster, it would be fine. Then they could introduce T2, faction and deadspace variants that ramp up to what the current one does, with the appropriate increase in price for this kind of performance. That's right. Reducing boosting values of ASBs in half looks pretty good. Having a spare mid and neut-immunity might be balanced with a reload timer. But CCP decided that on top of that these free mods should give as much tank as the very best deadspace boosters. How can anyone sane consider it balanced? 14
Jerick Ludhowe Toxic Waste Industries 106	Posted - 2012.07.24 15:03:00 - [23] - Quote Fon Revedhort wrote: Having a spare mid and neut-immunity might be balanced with a reload timer. But CCP decided that on top of that these free mods should give as much tank as the very best deadspace boosters. How can anyone sane consider it balanced? Bad internal testing is the answer you are looking for. Truth be told these modules just should not exist period...
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 238	Posted - 2012.07.24 15:33:00 - [24] - Quote Jerick Ludhowe wrote: Fon Revedhort wrote: Having a spare mid and neut-immunity might be balanced with a reload timer. But CCP decided that on top of that these free mods should give as much tank as the very best deadspace boosters. How can anyone sane consider it balanced? Bad internal testing is the answer you are looking for. Truth be told these modules just should not exist period... I would suggest that the concept of the module is fine: a extremely short burst of tank. I have no real opinion on what the strength of the mod should be. I posted some numbers, which are exceptional, but that is for a grand total of 52 seconds, then the ship is in trouble. (much much shorter with medium and small versions). But I do believe that an armour equivalent should be created.
Takeshi Yamato Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 203	Posted - 2012.07.24 15:37:00 - [25] - Quote Quote: I would suggest that the concept of the module is fine: a extremely short burst of tank. As long as its not immune to neuts and has fitting requirements in line with the benefit it gives, then yes.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate 213	Posted - 2012.07.24 15:41:00 - [26] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Quote: I would suggest that the concept of the module is fine: a extremely short burst of tank. As long as its not immune to neuts and has fitting requirements in line with the benefit it gives, then yes. Neuts are overpowered enough as it is, tbh the fact that active tanking gets shut down by them while buffer tanking does not is one of the biggest balance related problems in the game.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide. 719	Posted - 2012.07.24 15:47:00 - [27] - Quote Cambarus wrote: [quote=Takeshi Yamato] Quote: I would suggest that the concept of the module is fine: a extremely short burst of tank. tbh the fact that active tanking gets shut down by them while buffer tanking does not is one of the biggest balance related problems in the game. Yeah, but the idea that it's buffer tank which needs another (alternative) way of dealing with seems to be pretty difficult for CCP to adopt. They'd rather dumb down active tanking instead of making passive one more complex. 14
Cpt Branko Zawa's Fan Club 28	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:07:00 - [28] - Quote Cambarus wrote: Neuts are overpowered enough as it is, tbh the fact that active tanking gets shut down by them while buffer tanking does not is one of the biggest balance related problems in the game. Not really... I mean, in the only place active tanking is relevant in any way, which is small scale situations, neuts also hurt buffer tanks a lot, rendering two races out of four unable to fire under excessive neuting (and unlike an active tanked ship which will be actually able to fire because of injector but not tank, the buffer tank won't be able to fire). Of course as it is, races with non-cap using weapons are very popular to say the least... but even for them, neuts shut down propulsion, shut down tackle, active resist mods, etc. Buffer or active tanked, neuts (from a larger ship, or a ship with neuting bonuses) are very effective. Are they unbalanced? Well, if they were nerfed, it would probably shift the solo / very small gang game more in favour of smaller ships which would be comparatively boosted quite a bit. Some ships would become more or less obsolete in that scenario. Would there be more or less viable ships / fits overall? Hard to say. I mean, ofc. you can just fly in gangs of sufficient size and then neuts are irrelevant more or less, bar maybe trying to shut down capital tanks or something of the sort. To the OP: what prevents the other guy(s) to just kill whatever is tackling for that Vargur, since unlike AT, people will just warp off on TQ?
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 238	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:35:00 - [29] - Quote Cpt Branko wrote: To the OP: what prevents the other guy(s) to just kill whatever is tackling for that Vargur, since unlike AT, people will just warp off on TQ? You mean the fact that the ship fitting I provided has no tackle? I am working with the assumption that that ship would not fly alone. I am one for believing in role specific ships, not redundancy over a squad. Not every ship has to have tackle onboard, since in small gang warfare, it is extremely unlikely you will kill every opponent anyway. You focus on getting a few, with less losses incurred than inflicted. Besides, that ship was just an example of what is possible. You may see that ship fitting out and about on TQ, then again you may not. edit, sorry, misread your post. Bottom line, yeah, the Vargur's tackle ship will likely get creamed, but maybe not before you kill one or two of your opponents. That is what makes it interesting, who knows how the battle may work out. So many ships, so many fittings, so many outcomes.
Jerick Ludhowe Toxic Waste Industries 107	Posted - 2012.07.24 16:49:00 - [30] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: But I do believe that an armour equivalent should be created. Please, for the love of god, no

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