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The Path of the Idama

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Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.27 06:46:00 - [1] There has been a great deal of discussion in this forum about religion, and perhaps it is time to discuss some other perspectives. Many religions are transcendent; that is, they believe that religion is the relationship between the believer and an external force, a creator or protector, to whom we owe some measure of worship. The Amarr faith would fall into this category, as would some of the tribal gods and totems discussed by various Matari. Other religions are more immanent; meaning, that they are concerned with the internal journey of the individual to a deeper understanding. This is Ida. Each religion claims to have access to the one Truth. This absolute truth comes to us, from the religions, if the form of words in a book that have been handed down from a transcendent being. But, there is no absolute truth that can be attained outside of ourselves. Acceptance of this can make one feel alone in the universe, but understanding this is the key to unlocking the power to engage, on the highest level, with the forces behind the universe. Ida is many things, but it is firstly a cycle û an eternal cycle of death and rebirth. Not the crude rebirth of cloning, but a rebirth in which the consciousness moves to new levels of understanding after the lessons each life. We are all children of the mind of the universe, and by seeking an enlightened truth within ourselves, by seeking peace, by coming to understand that everything changes, we get closer to knowing this mind. And it is beautiful. I will continue to consider; continue to seek; continue to dream of the things I cannot, for the moment, fully comprehend.
Darth A30NZ Amarr Altus Provisio Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.07.27 08:01:00 - [2] ^^^^ Heathen Burn it with fire. On a lighter note... the is only one0 God and one Faith it just changes who you talk to and what it's called. In the end it's all God, and in the end we all seem to always find God...
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.27 11:52:00 - [3] Originally by: Darth A30NZ ^^^^ Heathen Burn it with fire. On a lighter note... the is only one0 God and one Faith it just changes who you talk to and what it's called. In the end it's all God, and in the end we all seem to always find God... Are you trying to suggest that due to my assertions about Ida I should be burned? I pity you your extremes of emotion. Perhaps, if you walk a more balanced path, a path of consideration, rather than one of absolutes, you would be able to find release from the frustrations that you are clearly nursing, like poison. As for God, I neither affirm nor deny the possibility of one. If there is a God, though, I doubt this infinite spirit would wish for the immolation of others.
Hussain Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:35:00 - [4] I am not a religiuos person. And I must admit I am new to the study of the Ida. But it doesn't seems to be that Ida is a religion, to me it seems its more like a philosophical way of seeing existence and improving oneself.
Bataav Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.27 21:20:00 - [5] Namas Hussain While most would consider a divine deity to be a necessary part of religion, this is not the case. Ida looks at matters of ethics and concience, and asks us to consider life's lessons just as more traditional religions that include Deity do. The difference is that rather than accept texts as holy scripture passed to mortals by a Divine being, Ida lets us learn through experience and life itself. Rather than be given the answers and expected to live life according to predefined rules, Ida allows personal freedom to explore and discover those rules oneself. Of course it is not for us to decide which is the correct path. But both are equally as valid. Both can lead to enlightenment and spiritual fulfilment. Rather than focussing on which is the better route, instead consider that all rivers flow to the ocean, and it is by travelling them that we learn their course.
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:40:00 - [6] With regards to religion, I am reminded of the words of Idama Pakami Durahma of Brarel, who, when asked why she spend as much time working in the fields as she did doling out wisdom said: "Work is a form of prayer. Don't show me how many times you've bowed before your God. Show me how many people you've helped." I think this sums up the practical nature of the Ida. It is based around a reality that is both tangible and intangible. It lives in the recesses of our mind, and in everyday mundanities. It is a religion, but not a faith. I have made my distaste for the word 'faith' known elsewhere. Faith is believing something without having any evidence for this belief. Ida is not like this. The evidence of it is before us, in the reborn, in the calm discipline of the adherents. Ida is not a faith. It is a path.
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.29 02:34:00 - [7] Today's pearl of wisdom comes from Vremaja Idama: "We who follow the Way aim to live a life of moderation, not succumbing to the extremes of self-indulgence or self-denial. Ida is a way of living, we do not have any beliefs in a heaven or hell, and do not take any writing or saying as "truth". Ida is a path, but Intaki are expected to walk it themselves." This touches on the attitude to absolute truth that many Intaki have. Often, you will find that followers of the Ida are disinclined to use the word truth in a context that suggests some objective standard. Most Intaki are suspicious of 'truth' that is objective and absolute, especially if that 'truth' is contained withing a thinly veiled appeal to authority, like in some faiths.
Surya Reborn	Posted - 2010.07.29 11:06:00 - [8] Ida is not a Religion.
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.07.29 11:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Surya Reborn Ida is not a Religion. I think perhaps you don't fully understand the difference between transcendent and immanent religions that I made clear earlier. Religion can be as simple as a set of ideas that give meaning to the universe and that is Ida. Another quote from Vremaja Idama: "One core tenet is that all things are in a cycle. Death leads to rebirth. A solution only leads to more problems. We know that the "soul" or 'spirit' is eternal and will be reborn many times to learn new lessons, and once it fully understands the cycle it may finally move on." Understanding this inevitability helps us understand our universe and the mind of of our universe.
CometQueen Amarr Amarr Certified News Agency	Posted - 2010.08.01 23:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Surya Reborn Ida is not a Religion. Ida is pleasant a cultural moor. Originally by: Mammal Tafren Each religion claims to have access to the one Truth. This absolute truth comes to us, from the religions, if the form of words in a book that have been handed down from a transcendent being. Vremaja Idama was political and as with most politicians he became involved in some questionable endeavors that resulted in more than a few deaths. As a source he leaves much to be desired. If you review my interview with him from some years ago you will find that he intimated Ida was merely a lifestyle with no religious assertions. In the same interview he was open in his support of those who wish to pursue the one True Religion. Sundari Idama was a somewhat less verbose source, but he did provide some interesting contributions. Contributions which demystify Ida; codifying it as the Intaki people's moral code by which those of an enlightened mind should aspire. We can not draw an absolute conclusion on the metaphysical authority the Idama place upon Ida from only two sources. We can draw a reasonable assumption from these two sources by virtue that the four hundred ninety-eight other Idama did not disagree with Vremaja and SundariÆs explanations.
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.08.02 00:12:00 - [11] Originally by: CometQueen Ida is pleasant a cultural moor. I don't know what this means. You'll have to elaborate Originally by: CometQueen Vremaja Idama was political and as with most politicians he became involved in some questionable endeavors that resulted in more than a few deaths. As a source he leaves much to be desired. This seems to me to be a generalisation. All people are political by definition. To be political is to make collective decisions. This neither qualifies nor disqualifies you as a source. Further to this, your statement that one's actions can call into question one's validity as a source is a fallacy, an ad hominem. Even if the Idama was a green skinned baby eating Zerk from the tales of Dozio, that would not make a bit of difference to his words on the Ida. Originally by: CometQueen We can not draw an absolute conclusion on the metaphysical authority the Idama place upon Ida from only two sources. We can draw a reasonable assumption from these two sources by virtue that the four hundred ninety-eight other Idama did not disagree with Vremaja and SundariÆs explanations. Of course not. We cannot draw conclusions on anything based on sources. This would also be a fallacy, an appeal to authority. These are merely signposts which point the way, not absolutes. Each Idama is like a signpost, and through the collective sum of their wisdom we are able to see a path. In order to walk this path, one must be reasoned, eschew one's assumptions, be ready to accept the possiblility of concurrent truths, be ready to consider.
CometQueen Amarr Amarr Certified News Agency	Posted - 2010.08.02 14:26:00 - [12] Edited by: CometQueen on 02/08/2010 14:33:06 Originally by: Mammal Tafren your statement that one's actions can call into question one's validity as a source is a fallacy, an ad hominem. Even if the Idama was a green skinned baby eating Zerk from the tales of Dozio, that would not make a bit of difference to his words on the Ida. The Ad Hominem fallacy is the rejection of an argument based on irrelevant facts about the person making the claim or argument. I call into question the validity of the source. It would have also been an Ad Hominem fallacy if the source of your argument had been an empirical study and I rejected it based on some vice not inherent to the material. Your contention in not empirical, it is inculpatory. The claims you make are based on declarative testimonial statements; therefore the fallibility of the source you used to acquire the submitted precepts is admissible. Your claim to authority on this topic is based entirely upon Vremaja IdamaÆs claim to authority on the topicÆs concept which is accorded to him based solely on who Vremaja Idama is. Vremaja and his wife were duplicitous in numerous schemes. These schemes include an assassination plot, the murder and betrayal of a fully crewed taskforce of Ishukone Watch, the attempted betrayal of an Intaki Capsuleer corporation, the successful betrayal of several Caldari Capsuleer corporation and the murder of a fleet of Caldari Paramilitaries through by the procurement of the services of the capsuleer alliance Mercenary Coalition. These are verifiable facts; all of which are available in the public record. I have yet been unable to prove beyond circumstantial evidence that Vremaja Idama was under the control or influence of the Kuveki Family. Strong circumstantial evidence was brought to light after the Ishukone incident. The investigation stalled as Vremaja Idama went into hiding before he his association with the criminal agents of the Kuveki family could be fully examined. Ida is the Philosophy of doing good and causing no harm. You claim Vremaja as an expert source, his actions in adherence to the sole foundation of Ida then must be taken into account
Jon Engel APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.08.02 19:05:00 - [13] Originally by: CometQueen Edited by: CometQueen on 02/08/2010 15:02:51 Originally by: Mammal Tafren We cannot draw conclusions on anything based on sources. This would also be a fallacy Fallacy is a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning. Drawing conclusions based on reasoned sources is the only way to make a reasoned decision. Originally by: Mammal Tafren your statement that one's actions can call into question one's validity as a source is a fallacy, an ad hominem. Even if the Idama was a green skinned baby eating Zerk from the tales of Dozio, that would not make a bit of difference to his words on the Ida. The Ad Hominem fallacy is the rejection of an argument based on irrelevant facts about the person making the claim or argument. The claims you make in your argument are based only on his declarative testimonial statements; therefore the fallibility of the source you used to acquire the submitted precepts is admissible. Vremaja was duplicitous in numerous schemes. These schemes include an assassination plot, the murder and betrayal of a fully crewed taskforce of Ishukone Watch, the attempted betrayal of an Intaki Capsuleer corporation, the successful betrayal of several Caldari Capsuleer corporation and the murder of a fleet of Caldari Paramilitaries by the procurement of the services of the capsuleer alliance Mercenary Coalition. These are verifiable facts; all of which are available in the public record. I have yet been unable to prove beyond circumstantial evidence that Vremaja Idama was under the control or influence of the Kuveki Family. Strong circumstantial evidence was brought to light after the Ishukone incident. The investigation stalled as Vremaja Idama went into hiding before he his association with the criminal agents of the Kuveki family could be fully examined. as a source on Ida and its sole foundation of doing good and causing no harm, Vremaja Idama leaves much to be desired. Actually his wife, the Sansha ***** is responsible for all those things. If you want to dig further into the rabbit hole so be it CometQueen... Point is, your knowledge is rather lacking when it comes to the backroom dealings and betrayal when it comes to Intaki Space.
CometQueen Amarr Amarr Certified News Agency	Posted - 2010.08.02 20:30:00 - [14] Edited by: CometQueen on 02/08/2010 20:32:42 Originally by: Jon Engel Actually his wife, the Sansha *** is responsible for all those things. If you want to dig further into the rabbit hole so be it CometQueen... Collusion and partnership with that Kuveki is of course what started the concerns. I tend to hope that he was under the control of some implant or other conditioning device. One would hope an Idama would not willingly work with the Kuveki. At the time a question was brought up that did give me pause to consider. If the Idama is one who becomes Reborn each time his body dies, why not just die and escape the Kuveki clutches? Originally by:** Jon Engel Point is, your knowledge is rather lacking when it comes to the backroom dealings and betrayal when it comes to Intaki Space. I would wager I have more of the material involved than any other capsuleer in New Eden. When I investigate something I tend to corroborate sources from all sides involved. Originally by: Mammal Tafren ...they believe that religion is the relationship between the believer and an external force... àThe Amarr faith would fall into this category... àEach religion claims to have access to the one Truthà àthere is no absolute truth that can be attained outside of ourselvesà Perhaps if Mr. Tafren wishes to have a theological discussion about the inferiority of the Amarr Faith compared to his Ida he would take the time to research his idol?
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.08.02 22:29:00 - [15] Originally by: CometQueen Fallacy is a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning. Drawing conclusions based on reasoned sources is the only way to make a reasoned decision. Actually the only way to make reasoned decisions is to use reason. The appeal to authority is generally flawed because the authority of any source is always in question. Originally by: CometQueen The Ad Hominem fallacy is the rejection of an argument based on irrelevant facts about the person making the claim or argument. The claims you make in your argument are based only on his declarative testimonial statements; therefore the fallibility of the source you used to acquire the submitted precepts is admissible. Actually, false again. Ad hominem means to the man. If your argument goes to the man himself rather than to what he says about Ida, then you are guilty of this fallacy.
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.08.02 22:34:00 - [16] Originally by: CometQueen Perhaps if Mr. Tafren wishes to have a theological discussion about the inferiority of the Amarr Faith compared to his Ida he would take the time to research his idol? [/quote I have two problems with this statement. At no point have I stated that the Amarr faith is inferior. I don't believe this. I also did not say that the Vremaja Idama was my idol. This is also false. I merely quoted him. I quoted another Idama, you will notice. The Idama carry wisdom that is the sum of many past lives, and their words are worthy of consideration. This does not deify them as you seem to be suggesting. You celarly do not understand Ida. It is not the absolutes that you seem to be throwing around. It is consideration of all possibilities. Your words show ignorance.
CometQueen Amarr Amarr Certified News Agency	Posted - 2010.08.03 01:15:00 - [17] Edited by: CometQueen on 03/08/2010 01:21:09 Originally by: Mammal Tafren Your words show ignorance. following your original supposition: Quote: Many religions are transcendent; that is, they believe that religion is the relationship between the believer and an external force, a creator or protector, to whom we owe some measure of worship. Transcendent Religious are External, based on that which is outside our self. Quote: The Amarr faith would fall into this category... The Amarr Faith is Transcendent Quote: Other religions are more immanent; meaning, that they are concerned with the internal journey of the individual to a deeper understanding. Immanent Religions are Internal, based on inside oneÆs self. Quote: This is Ida. Ida is Immanent Quote: Each religion claims to have access to the one Truth. Each religion claims to have the Truth Quote: But, there is no absolute truth that can be attained outside of ourselves. There is no truth outside our-selves, only with-in. Ida is With-in the Amarr Faith is With-out. Your words are quite clear that Religions which focus out are false. Originally by: Mammal Tafren At no point have I stated that the Amarr faith is inferior. I don't believe this. I agree with the idea that the Amarr Faith is not Inferior to the philosophy of Ida. I believe self-obsession religions can not find any truth other than indulgence of the Id. We are but a small part of a grander design, and it is that design by which we should seek on our path to enlightenment. I would very much like to have a theological discussion on these concepts with you, Mr. Tafren, but not until you own your view honestly. A religious man who believes his way is true above all evidence to the contrary is not blind nor arrogant, he has Faith. Do you have faith that you have chosen correctly?
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.08.03 02:26:00 - [18] Originally by: CometQueen Quote: But, there is no absolute truth that can be attained outside of ourselves. There is no truth outside our-selves, only with-in. Ida is With-in the Amarr Faith is With-out. Your words are quite clear that Religions which focus out are false. You have followed my line of reasoning soundly up to this point, but here you make a leap that isn't present in the reasoning. Transcendent religions aren't false. I merely stated that absolute truth doesn't exist. You are making the next step, not I. Originally by: CometQueen I agree with the idea that the Amarr Faith is not Inferior to the philosophy of Ida. I believe self-obsession religions can not find any truth other than indulgence of the Id. We are but a small part of a grander design, and it is that design by which we should seek on our path to enlightenment. Philosophy means: "A love of wisdom." and this describes Ida well. And quoting myself, Religion is a search for meaning or deeper understanding of the Universe. This is also apt to Ida. You describe Ida as self-obsessed, but this shows only a surface understanding of Immanence. The grasp of true reason, bereft of emotion allows us to journey, free of deception. Whether this journey leads us to a transcendent being or not is yet to be determined. The principles of Ida that allow us to take that journey remain the same. Many of the world's religions contain elements of both transcendence and immanence. I am open to all possibilities. This is what Ida is, to consider. Originally by: CometQueen I would very much like to have a theological discussion on these concepts with you, Mr. Tafren, but not until you own your view honestly. Very unfair and perjorative statement. Firstly, this is precisely what we are doing. Secondly, you attempt to distort my views, and this demonstrates some difficulties in reason that you seem to be having, which I have amply shown above. Originally by: CometQueen A religious man who believes his way is true above all evidence to the contrary is not blind nor arrogant, he has Faith. Do you have faith that you have chosen correctly? I have two problems with this question. One is the implicit assumption that I have chosen one path over another, or anything at all. I simply consider, open to the possibilities of finding out the truth. I look for the wisdom that previous souls have collected and try to understand what that it. I walk a path. To say that one has chosen, in absolute terms, from amongst competing truths, shows a further lack of understanding. You come at the Ida in a fashion forged from absolutism, and cannot comprehend it this way. The second is the use of the word faith. As I have previously said, I am highly suspicious of the word. Faith is believing in something without a reason or evidence. In my opinion, Faith is guilty of more excess and suffering than skepticism and doubt. Perhaps if we had more doubt, New Eden would be a better place. But I'm a skeptic, so of course, I could be wrong.
Zik Kader Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.03 11:55:00 - [19] You Gallentes with your fads and trends; I dismiss this... cult... as another Flavor of The Month and that it will dissipate in matter of months. As for the definition of Religion, there is only one: The Faith. Anything else will not, do not and never will count. Don't taint the meaning of Religion with "categories" or "cycles" or other dribbles.
Valdezi Amarr Intaki Security and Intelligence	Posted - 2010.08.03 12:24:00 - [20] Edited by: Valdezi on 03/08/2010 12:24:09 He's not even Gallente guy, he's Intaki. Did you even read the thread? I guess all the other races are the same to you: "Not Amarr." I'm Khanid by the way.
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.08.03 12:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Zik Kader You Gallentes with your fads and trends; I dismiss this... cult... as another Flavor of The Month and that it will dissipate in matter of months. As for the definition of Religion, there is only one: The Faith. Anything else will not, do not and never will count. Don't taint the meaning of Religion with "categories" or "cycles" or other dribbles. Zik, thankyou for making my point.
Akrasjel Lanate	Posted - 2010.08.03 12:35:00 - [22] Religion in New Eden - it's an intersting topic, are there any articles about it ?
Syn Callibri Blacklight Incorporated	Posted - 2010.08.03 20:58:00 - [23] Edited by: Syn Callibri on 03/08/2010 20:58:25 If I didn't know better, I'd think the Amarr despise your beliefs more than that of the Matari tribes! Syn Callibri Ilharess of the Scorpion Tribe
Mammal Tafren Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.08.04 05:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Akrasjel Lanate Religion in New Eden - it's an intersting topic, are there any articles about it ? You will find quite a bit out there about the Amarr religion. Less about Matari Tribal religions and the Ida, due to historical and cultural events. A lot of Matari faiths were annihilated by the Amarr conquest in subsequent slavery of the Matar. I don't mean this is a perjorative sense to slander the Amarr. I am merely recounting history. As for the Ida, it has a strong oral tradition, based around the words of the Idama, and things have rarely been written down. It would be most un-Intaki to write down and codify the Ida, anyway. This is largely the reason I have come here and said these words, to teach others the things that have been taught to me. Originally by: Syn Callibri If I didn't know better, I'd think the Amarr despise your beliefs more than that of the Matari tribes! I've noticed that myself, with some surprise.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.08.04 08:23:00 - [25] Originally by: Zik Kader You Gallentes with your fads and trends; I dismiss this... cult... as another Flavor of The Month and that it will dissipate in matter of months. Idiot. If you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, kindly keep your mouth shut and cease lowering the board's collective IQ. The Ida is an Intaki spiritual belief, not a Gallente one (the plural of Gallente is Gallente, not Gallentes, incidentally, but then if you're not willing to do even the barest minimum of historical research, why should I expect you to have even passable grammar?) and certainly not a cult. Oh, and for your information, flavour of the month? Try flavour of at least the past two thousand years of recorded Intaki history. Begone. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Jesmine Kyriel Amarr House Kyriel Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.04 09:26:00 - [26] Interesting. Is there a place to find a good overview of the religious tenets of the Intaki faith? As an Imperial I am beholden to God and Empire, but that don't mean I can't broaden my horizons and study... other faiths and ideals. And yours intrigue me, somewhat. _________________________ Reformist holder, loyal to House Kyriel and the Amarrian Empire.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.08.04 09:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel Interesting. Is there a place to find a good overview of the religious tenets of the Intaki faith? As an Imperial I am beholden to God and Empire, but that don't mean I can't broaden my horizons and study... other faiths and ideals. And yours intrigue me, somewhat. I would strongly recommend asking the ILF if you can have access to their historical data library. I'm pretty certain there's no better source of information for doing research on the subject. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Zik Kader Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.05 12:51:00 - [28] I concede that the plural of Gallente is Gallente. And that I should have said "You Federations(?)..." instead of saying "You Gallentes...". To (most of) us, if you are Federation, we consider you Gallente. However, on to the issue at hand: Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Oh, and for your information, flavour of the month? Try flavour of at least the past two thousand years of recorded Intaki history. A cult is still a cult, no matter how long it has been a cult. And when I say Flavor of the Month, I don't mean the cult itself, but I direct this towards the "participants" who comes and goes - just to get on the bandwagon. What was it a few months ago? Some sort of "ancient stretching techniques" to calm the mental state, unintelligible mutterings included?
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.08.05 13:43:00 - [29] Originally by: Zik Kader A cult is still a cult, no matter how long it has been a cult. Indeed. Your cult's been around for millenia, and far better fits the description of a cult than ever the pursuit of the Ida did. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Jesmine Kyriel Amarr House Kyriel Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.05 15:07:00 - [30] Originally by: Zik Kader ... Mr. Kader, while we won't expect the non-believers to show any kind of respect or understanding for our Faith or our ways, would it not serve our honor better to ignore the desire to bad-mouth their Faith in turn, regardless of what we believe of it? The Intaki's Faith may be alien to us and a heathen religion in face of God's glorious work, yet I believe it would serve us considerably better to show some level of civility in face of their beliefs, however false they may be. Leave the ignorant, wayward children alone. There will be a day when a choice is offered them, too. And that day, we will see who has some small hope of salvation, or not. _________________________ Reformist holder, loyal to House Kyriel and the Amarrian Empire.

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