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To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why

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Lirinas	Posted - 2011.02.13 01:11:00 - [871] Tasko, I can see what you're talking about, and in a sense you are correct, we don't need Tech 2 BPO's. If we were to remove or convert all existing T2 BPO's tomorrow, things would still function in New Eden. The markets would go wild, and overall T2 would go up in price for a very long time. This of course would be good for the people that make most of their own T2 goods to use and sell, but not-so-good for the more casual players that only dabble with industry, or don't do industry at all. But at the same time, why do we need to get rid of then? A lot of the perceived need to do away with them is that they're difficult to acquire, and since there's a finite supply of them they usually represent a large amount of ISK. That's not that different from how Moon Resources work - a finite resource that can be worth a lot of money, that's difficult to acquire. If one needs to be addressed, might as well do both at the same time and get it over with. As for referring to Invention (and RE) as another Lottery, that's just a matter of semantics. They're both chance-based systems just with different odds and rules of participation. See store for details
Mer'Kaba	Posted - 2011.02.15 12:26:00 - [872] Hey all, I'm new to the game but I was told that the main reason why people feel the T2 BPO's are unfair is because there was a scandal of some sort and there was some manipulation by people in power to make sure their "friends" got the T2 BPO's if it was a lottery and everything was equal, then so be it, but from what I hear in the chat that wasn't the case at all. Can someone shed a little light on this for me?
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.02.15 12:51:00 - [873] Originally by: Mer'Kaba Hey all, I'm new to the game but I was told that the main reason why people feel the T2 BPO's are unfair is because there was a scandal of some sort and there was some manipulation by people in power to make sure their "friends" got the T2 BPO's if it was a lottery and everything was equal, then so be it, but from what I hear in the chat that wasn't the case at all. Can someone shed a little light on this for me? yes, no, yes [well as much as we know] no and no not really - t2 prints are not a problem people not knowing the value of stuff is the problem I can [and do] make more profit from invention than from a t2 original of the same type, invention can out produce a t2 bpo -- Join BIG
Justice Starcatcher Asguard Security Service	Posted - 2011.02.15 21:05:00 - [874] Edited by: Justice Starcatcher on 15/02/2011 21:09:41 Originally by: Mer'Kaba Hey all, I'm new to the game but I was told that the main reason why people feel the T2 BPO's are unfair is because there was a scandal of some sort and there was some manipulation by people in power to make sure their "friends" got the T2 BPO's, if it was a lottery and everything was equal, then so be it, but from what I hear in the chat that wasn't the case at all. Can someone shed a little light on this for me? I'll try to give a little more meat. There was no scandal around the lottery, everything seems to indicate that "lottery" system was legitimate. The scandal was around a rogue GM who replaced destroyed T2 BPC with originals. The evidence seems to indicate that this was a limited incident, at least in relation to the number of legit BPO's. T20 was the GM if I remember correctly. Just goes to show how bad press lingers on. What the...
Fendri Nalica	Posted - 2011.02.16 17:03:00 - [875] From the first page: Originally by: Vilgan Mazran B) I think actually removing them is an inferior option. I personally prefer the following solutions in order of preference: 1) T2 BPOs can not be utilized in a station. To utilize a T2 BPO, the T2 BPO must be in the POS (no building in stations). 2) Conversion to high run BPCs. By high run, I mean like 5-6 years worth of runs. 3) Disabling of T2 BPOs building functionality. So it has no risk of dying still but it is converted to full collectible status. I like option 1, providing risk to the BPO when in use. This way, there is always a possibility of loss of the T2 BPO. (which could remove them from the game via attrition) I could also support the option to invent T2 BPOs from T1 BPOs with a horrible chance of success. (less than 1/1000)
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2011.02.16 19:35:00 - [876] For once i actually agree with an option someone mentioned concerning tech 2 bpo's. I like the idea that they need to be in the pos. BUT!!!!! For manufacturing only!!! And for ALL bpos. Copying/research would still need to have the station bound option. Mainly so that station services can be used(unless ccp were to remove the services completely). I think that option would silence alot of the jealous hate.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.16 21:44:00 - [877] Originally by: Jovialmadness For once i actually agree with an option someone mentioned concerning tech 2 bpo's. I like the idea that they need to be in the pos. BUT!!!!! For manufacturing only!!! And for ALL bpos. Copying/research would still need to have the station bound option. Mainly so that station services can be used(unless ccp were to remove the services completely). I think that option would silence alot of the jealous hate. So you want to restrict building stuff to people with access to POS facilities, i.e. corp members with specific roles. I think you will like the new prices of stuff after you idea is implemented.
sinamrali	Posted - 2011.02.17 00:27:00 - [878] Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but how feasible is it to do invention without an agent? Could you buy all the datacores rather than earning it from an agent by grinding and still have enough of a profit margin?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.17 07:59:00 - [879] Originally by: sinamrali Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but how feasible is it to do invention without an agent? Could you buy all the datacores rather than earning it from an agent by grinding and still have enough of a profit margin? Yes. Having a agent or not having it don't do any difference. You should always factor the cost of using datacores in your production spreadsheet. If you have a R&D agent and produce datacores you can: - sell them for isk - used them to invent (losing the isk you would have got for selling them) so research with a agent produce (indirectly) isk. If you are pricing the stuff you invent without factoring the datacore cost you are underselling and damaging all T2 traders, in particular inventors (and it is the main reason why sometime inventing isn't rewarding, people falling in factoring the costs).
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:56:00 - [880] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/02/2011 17:02:52 Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/02/2011 17:00:13 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Jovialmadness For once i actually agree with an option someone mentioned concerning tech 2 bpo's. I like the idea that they need to be in the pos. BUT!!!!! For manufacturing only!!! And for ALL bpos. Copying/research would still need to have the station bound option. Mainly so that station services can be used(unless ccp were to remove the services completely). I think that option would silence alot of the jealous hate. So you want to restrict building stuff to people with access to POS facilities, i.e. corp members with specific roles. I think you will like the new prices of stuff after you idea is implemented. Yep. Its the only way id personally agree to allowing bpos (tech 2) to be modified. You want them poppable? You sacrifice WITH the tech 2 bpo holder as well. You dont like that idea due to it messing with your manufacturing? The tech 2 holder probably didnt like spending 100-140 billion on that hulk bpo just to have whiners help get his bpo poppable either. I.E. It wasnt in the purchase description when he/she forked over mountains of isk that it would play out like that. Edit. Besides it fundamentally changing supply and demand, you want 0.0 populated? Who doesnt. Its been a whine pvpers have had for years trying to get low sec and 0.0 populated. What better way to get carebear manufacturers to the only relative safe places they can produce....a stable 0.0 alliance held region. That or high sec of course. Bpos getting poppef would open up bpo research and sales as a decently profitable venture again as well id think.

mercury V	Posted - 2011.02.18 00:39:00 - [881] i read in several post t2 bpo can be purchased in 0.0 security . please list system and station name with available ship t2-bpo and prices. failed invention tries take the fun out of it PLEASE AND THANK YOU
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.18 07:50:00 - [882] Originally by: Jovialmadness The tech 2 holder probably didnt like spending 100-140 billion on that hulk bpo just to have whiners help get his bpo poppable either. I'm sure you meant to say "upwards of 1.5B". -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.18 08:52:00 - [883] Originally by: Akita T I agree, T2 BPOs + lottery WAS a mistake. HOWEVER... 1. The argument that "it's unfair to newer players" is invalid. Newer players have the exact same options to get a T2 BPO as a very old player with no T2 BPOs has to get one ofc its a valid one - you can only get one for collector prices.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2011.02.18 09:52:00 - [884] Edited by: Stella SGP on 18/02/2011 09:56:01 Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Akita T I agree, T2 BPOs + lottery WAS a mistake. HOWEVER... 1. The argument that "it's unfair to newer players" is invalid. Newer players have the exact same options to get a T2 BPO as a very old player with no T2 BPOs has to get one ofc its a valid one - you can only get one for collector prices. So again, how does a price tag "prevent" a newer player from buying one?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.18 10:13:00 - [885] Originally by: Stella SGP So again, how does a price tag "prevent" a newer player from buying one? common sense not buying things for collector prices. say what you like, imo T2 BPOs should get removed from the game.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2011.02.18 10:17:00 - [886] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Stella SGP So again, how does a price tag "prevent" a newer player from buying one? common sense not buying things for collector prices. say what you like, imo T2 BPOs should get removed from the game. So if "common sense" is preventing newer players from buying, then how does it make it unfair, just because older players wants to and are willing to pay for them?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.18 10:24:00 - [887] Originally by: Stella SGP So if "common sense" is preventing newer players from buying, then how does it make it unfair, just because older players wants to and are willing to pay for them? because those, who own them already, destroy the invention market on those items.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.18 11:20:00 - [888] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/02/2011 10:30:08 Originally by: Stella SGP So if "common sense" is preventing newer players from buying, then how does it make it unfair, just because older players wants to and are willing to pay for them? because those, who own them already, destroy the invention market on those items. Buying those doesnt make any sense due to insanely long ROI, but you're still f*cked by people who got them from a banned game process. 75% of all HAC and 89% of all hulks being produced by BPC say otherwise. (QUEN Q2 2009 - probably now the percentage is higher) And before you sprout out some other uninformed stuff, producing a T2 BPC copy from an T2 BPO require almost x2 the time that will be used to produce the same item. So no sane T2 BPO owner will produce BPc instead of building them directly.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2011.02.18 11:58:00 - [889] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/02/2011 10:30:08 Originally by: Stella SGP So if "common sense" is preventing newer players from buying, then how does it make it unfair, just because older players wants to and are willing to pay for them? because those, who own them already, destroy the invention market on those items. Buying those doesnt make any sense due to insanely long ROI, but you're still f*cked by people who got them from a banned game process. How certain are you that the invention market is destroyed by BPOs and not by people with superior production cost (free minerals, free datacores or an inability to do mathematics)?
UfoTRADER Implacable Heavy Industries Quod Erat Demonstrandum	Posted - 2011.02.18 18:52:00 - [890] Originally by: Stella SGP How certain are you that the invention market is destroyed by BPOs and not by people with superior production cost (free minerals, free datacores or an inability to do mathematics)? I am not sure anyone besides CCP is certain, but unfortunately everyone gets sick of penny racing and drops the bottom out of the market. I own t2 bpos, as well as invent the same items and I continuously have issues with people crashing the market. I make more isk buying the market out and holding onto it for a couple of months. I honestly think the vast majority of people involved in industry should be forced to take micro/macro-economic theory. I think having a lottery to sell t2 bpo's with a high value limit would be fun, once it reaches the limit people can continue to buy tickets. My only concern with the t2 bpo market is greed pricing the item at five to six years profit, which can only be bought by the multi-trillionaire club. That disconnect is why there are so many people whining about T2 in general, but I personally could care less. :)

Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2011.02.18 23:33:00 - [891] Originally by: UfoTRADER Originally by: Stella SGP How certain are you that the invention market is destroyed by BPOs and not by people with superior production cost (free minerals, free datacores or an inability to do mathematics)? I am not sure anyone besides CCP is certain, but unfortunately everyone gets sick of penny racing and drops the bottom out of the market. I own t2 bpos, as well as invent the same items and I continuously have issues with people crashing the market. I make more isk buying the market out and holding onto it for a couple of months. I honestly think the vast majority of people involved in industry should be forced to take micro/macro-economic theory. I think having a lottery to sell t2 bpo's with a high value limit would be fun, once it reaches the limit people can continue to buy tickets. My only concern with the t2 bpo market is greed pricing the item at five to six years profit, which can only be bought by the multi-trillionaire club. That disconnect is why there are so many people whining about T2 in general, but I personally could care less. :) I agree, but you shouldn't be concern with greed pricing because it goes both ways. Wouldn't you try and sell your own BPOs for as much as possible? Also if people are willing to pay then there's no issue, why should we have to suffer just to cater to people who have no concept of saving up to buy something?
Shai 'Hulud Internecine Unlimited	Posted - 2011.02.19 01:19:00 - [892] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 18/02/2011 10:30:08 Originally by: Stella SGP So if "common sense" is preventing newer players from buying, then how does it make it unfair, just because older players wants to and are willing to pay for them? because those, who own them already, destroy the invention market on those items. Buying those doesnt make any sense due to insanely long ROI, but you're still f*cked by people who got them from a banned game process. So they're overpowered because they offer poor ROI??? I'm confused
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.19 11:26:00 - [893] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 19/02/2011 11:31:46 Originally by: Shai 'Hulud So they're overpowered because they offer poor ROI??? I'm confused they are overpowered because they ruin the invention market but offer a terrible ROI so only complete idiots, collectors or peeps/corps with already too much ISK would ever consider buying a decently profitable print. People who got them from the lottery win, all other loose. Scam, steal, cheat one is all right but buying doesnt make any sense for all prints I've calculated.
Shai 'Hulud Internecine Unlimited	Posted - 2011.02.19 23:38:00 - [894] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 19/02/2011 11:31:46 they are overpowered because they ruin the invention market but offer a terrible ROI so only complete idiots, collectors or peeps/corps with already too much ISK would ever consider buying a decently profitable print. People who got them from the lottery win, all other loose. Scam, steal, cheat one is all right but buying doesnt make any sense for all prints I've calculated. I've come to the conclusion that you have no clue what you are talking about... or that you are completely ****ed. I'm confident that no one else has made the argument that you are making: that they should be removed because they are a bad investment. Let me help you with some financial advice - if you think something is a bad investment, don't **ing invest in it. Class is excused for the day.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.20 09:52:00 - [895] let me give ya some advice: learn reading
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.02.20 13:02:00 - [896] How funny you should advise other people to do some reading, because pretty much everything you said so far has already been answered repeatedly in this very thread. Basically, your entire argument is something like... let me get this right... ...ahem... "T2 BPOs are too expensive, whoever has them is stupid for having bought them if they bought them so only the initial lottery winners had a good deal for them, they're also undercutting inventors because they can afford to undercut them destroying the invention market in the process, so for that reason, T2 BPOs should be removed" ... ...no, really, THAT is your argument. Where the bloody hell do I begin ? You're LUCKY my scar aches so I'm not going to go into a multi-post tirade, but instead be quite brief. The price of T2 BPOs is exactly right, as determined by the market. If most of that price comes from a "collector" status, so be it. Whoever bought some MIGHT be stupid, if he bought the really crappy ones, those for which invention is not profitable, sure... but for the rest, they are a low ROI high volume investment. Just because YOU can't properly benefit from such a tool doesn't mean there aren't people who wouldn't be able to. In fact, there's enough of those people around, and THEY are usually the ones holding T2 BPOs anyway, because they simply have way too much ISK and no other reasonable way to leverage most of it safely. And don't get me started on opportunity cost - once you HAVE an item in your possession, how much you paid for it is irrelevant to its value or to the best course of action you can take. Won in the lottery or purchased, your options regarding a T2 BPO are always exactly the same. NEVER confuse price, cost and value with eachother like that again. Also, what the hell is an "invention market" ? There's no such thing ! There's the T2 market (which includes items both manufactured from BPOs or invented BPCs), there's the T2 component market, the datacore market, the BPC market and so on, but no "invention market". A person that actually bothered to PAY money to buy a T2 BPO will never price its products lower than the market can handle, in fact, they will most likely not bother much and just wait for the market to slightly recover instead of undercutting. It's the inventors that keep undercutting like crazy because they WANT to unload their product fast to move on to the next invention cycle, most likely on something else. A T2 BPO owner will usually have at least a month to unload the monthly batch, because that's how it's best done, in maxrun batches. Plus, read the goddamn thread again, I'm bored and I sneezed so it hurts. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2011.02.21 04:14:00 - [897] Originally by: Robert Caldera but you're still f*cked by people who got them from a banned game process. Game process wasn't banned, it was discontinued. And doesn't it hurt when you claim something is both overpowered and stupid to get because it's vastly overpriced? Can't be both. Besides the claim of "overpowered" is absurd. You get the ability to make relatively small numbers of a particular item at a cheaper price. Not very exciting. Or you could sell it for several years worth of the profit from the T2 BPO. In other words, the greatest advantage of this "overpowered" item is as a collector's item.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.22 08:37:00 - [898] what I'm trying to tell is there should be no collectors items ingame which corrupt the industry for that degree. There should be no items ingame at all, which resulted from "discontinued" game processes!!
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:45:00 - [899] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/02/2011 14:10:35 what I'm trying to tell is there should be no collectors artifacts corrupting the industry to that degree. There should be no items ingame at all, which resulted from "discontinued" game processes!! Why do we want Eve to be pure and uncorrupted? Embrace the taint! And why should CCP be hoovering all the debris from discontinued (no need for scare quotes here) game processes? There's a lot of fun stuff to collect. You can own proximity mines which stopped worked many years ago, mission items and skill books which are no longer useful, special edition ships, etc. These things add character and history to the game. T2 BPOs happen to be another knickknack with a big price and a modest revenue stream.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.02.23 08:36:00 - [900] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 23/02/2011 08:40:46 Originally by: Tasko Pal Why do we want Eve to be pure and uncorrupted? Embrace the taint! And why should CCP be hoovering all the debris from discontinued (no need for scare quotes here) game processes? because there was a reason they were discontinued or stopped and replaced with something different for the same purpose. Originally by: Tasko Pal There's a lot of fun stuff to collect. You can own proximity mines which stopped worked many years ago, mission items and skill books which are no longer useful, special edition ships, etc. These things add character and history to the game. T2 BPOs happen to be another knickknack with a big price and a modest revenue stream. [x] compared one of the most game breaking mechanics to totally useless stuff as excuse You may owe mines and stuff, but you cant plant them or use them in any other "productive" way. But T2 BPO artifacts are still in usage. I would not care if that would be not that way.



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