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To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why

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Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.27 22:54:00 - [691] Originally by: Liang Nuren You are in effect telling 99% of the eve population that they are not allowed to compete in Eve's "free market". This attitude is exactly what is referred to when people say that Eve is a "good ole boys club" and nobody else is even allowed to play. Can anyone buy T2 Bpos? Checked Can anyone afford a T2 Bpo? If you say anyone can absolutely afford a titan then, Checked Was Akita implying that they are not allowed to compete? No.
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.27 23:23:00 - [692] Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: ... a really bad attempt ... This is a poor argument because all the components required to build a Titan are freely available. Also: individual players can absolutely afford Titans. :) Then you write later: Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shai 'Hulud Also: individual players can absolutely afford T2 BPO's Yeah. Never said they couldn't? -Liang I think I can summarize the above quotes as: Originally by: Liang Nuren ...noise... You imply in the first quote that T2 BPOs are not "freely available" even though almost nothing in Eve, include titan BPOs and the ingredients for a titan, is freely available. And reading the first quote compared to the second quote, I have to question whether you remember what you've written earlier? Sure you don't explicitly say "individual players can't absolutely afford T2 BPO's", but what was the reason for pointing out as part of your disagreement above that you can buy titan BPOs, if T2 BPOs share the same characteristics and hence, the point is irrelevant to your argument? I think Shai 'Hulud's interpretation is correct. Frankly, Liang, all your arguments have been weak. Buy a T2 BPO to be part of the superelite, good old boys' club? Why should I have a problem with that? It's e-peen enhancement for industrialists and leads to gems like: Originally by: cosmoray I can confirm (because I no longer have my Hulk BPO), that during the last Hulkageddon I was approached by BPO holders to stockpile and not sell the ships. I think a total of 5 BPO holders made up the group. Why shouldn't one be able to spend, oh, 80+ billion isk to be able to say little things like that? Come on, we have the Hulkageddon cabal scheming vilely behind the scenes, using their unfair by design T2 BPO advantage, to make enormous profits as well as loads of fun for the Eve community. That's delicious. That sort of diabolical machination would be neutered by the vanillization of the T2 market. Finally, it's been demonstrated that T2 BPOs are not "god mode". They simply don't generate enough profit for their price to qualify. They are merely another means, a well balanced one I might add, for rich players to make isk.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.27 23:30:00 - [693] Originally by: Tasko Pal Then you write later: I think if you bothered to read some context there, you'd find that the "also: players can absolutely afford Titans" is not in response to T2 BPO costs. It was in response to someone claiming people can't afford Titans. The rest of your post is centered around this fundamental misunderstanding and your inability to comprehend what you read... so I'll decline to respond to it. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.27 23:31:00 - [694] Originally by: Stella SGP Edited by: Stella SGP on 27/12/2010 22:56:42 Liang, You claim they are god-mode for industrialist, you claim they rake in billions every month. Now prove it! Do the math on T2 Bpos preferably in relation to the prices which they are sold at and show me how overpowered they are. So far, I've not seen a single figure or calculation from any of you whiners justifying your unrealistic profit claims. This. The numbers I've seen indicate that T2 BPOs are good for an extremely wealthy person who doesn't have a lot of RL time. Anybody else has higher ROI means at their disposal. Further, it isn't a unique opportunity. There are other things, such as investment/lending, supercap BP copying, alt trading, collecting special edition ships, or playing the market for big items like PLEX or faction bs that might generate similar returns for similar effort.
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:16:00 - [695] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 28/12/2010 00:17:06 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tasko Pal Then you write later: I think if you bothered to read some context there, you'd find that the "also: players can absolutely afford Titans" is not in response to T2 BPO costs. It was in response to someone claiming people can't afford Titans. The rest of your post is centered around this fundamental misunderstanding and your inability to comprehend what you read... so I'll decline to respond to it. The internet would be a much better place, if only people would listen to their own advice. Once again, you seem to dislike T2 BPOs and you're willing to give all sorts of silly, often nonsensical reasons why. I don't care that they are unfair, elitist, "not freely available", "god mode", whatever. What is the real reason? Did BOB get too many? Did you have to pay 500 mil for a hulk too many times? The only complaint that makes any sense to me and occurs with any frequency is that you keep mentioning the gaming of the lottery system in the beginning. This sort of reminds me of how the Russians sold off their oil infrastructure back in the Yeltsin days. The auction was crooked as hell and all sorts of seedy types grew immensely wealth. Once Putin rose to power, all those businesses changed hands to a new set of crooks. Presumably once Putin finally goes, the next head of state will play this game all over again. At some point, Russia will have to settle down and accept that they got robbed legally. If they want the rule of law to exist (and unproductive churn in the oil business to stop), they'll have to have accept that a lot of the wrong people got stuff they didn't earn. In a similar fashion, it's too bad that the T2 lottery was screwed up. If we want consistency in our game we have to allow people to keep stuff they obtained legally, even if it was by gaming the system. As a result, I don't care who gamed the T2 lottery nor how much swag they made off with. That's old news. I see no reason to be sore now for something that happened then. What I care about is whether the feature is unbalancing. And the symptom for that is whether there are broad circumstances in which nothing else is competitive as an investment. Prior to invention, T2 BPOs were indeed unbalancing. The income from a hulk BPO (to give a particularly egregious example) was many billions of isk a month in the good old days. Merely owning a single hulk BPO made you among the wealthiest of Eve citizens. As I understand it, there was nothing with the return to effort of T2 BPOs (aside from perhaps some of the moon minerals) prior to invention. If I had sufficient isk, the only serious investment options were T2 BPOs or investing in corps that owned T2 BPOs. That is no longer the case. T2 BPOs are just another investment option. As I pointed out above, there are numerous alternative investments that yield similar return on effort. Invention fixed T2 BPOs.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:19:00 - [696] Originally by: Umega You are freely avialable to purchase a T2 BPO. Great, go get me two dozen Scourge Fury Heavy Missile BPO's. I'll pay you 10x the seeded price.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:38:00 - [697] Originally by: Akita T No, it's not God Mode, it's "easy mode at a high cost", we've covered this several times over. Poor Akita. Cost is the money used up (meaning you don't have it anymore) to produce something. T2 BPOs are the exact opposite in that they operate at no cost - hence the 'god mode' reference. You are good at most of the economic aspects of this game, for something so fundamental IRL business to be misunderstood by you puzzles me to what you do in real life.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:43:00 - [698] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Umega You are freely avialable to purchase a T2 BPO. Great, go get me two dozen Scourge Fury Heavy Missile BPO's. I'll pay you 10x the seeded price. Really? Another silly word war statement? I'll make you a deal. Get me 1 of each type of Titan in Jita which I can freely use and I'll give you your Scourge Fury BPOs.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:46:00 - [699] Originally by: Stella SGP Really? Another silly word war statement? I'll make you a deal. Get me 1 of each type of Titan in Jita which I can freely use and I'll give you your Scourge Fury BPOs. The only one making silly word war statements is you. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:52:00 - [700] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion Quote: Resources are finite so if you want to make a change in one area it will likely drain resources from other areas CCP is working on. Please go learn how software development works. Oh, so in software development resources are not finite? What they have an infinite number of developers and time doesn't apply to them. You think this is a reasonable answer? You are being obstinately obtuse here.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:52:00 - [701] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Akita T No, it's not God Mode, it's "easy mode at a high cost", we've covered this several times over. Poor Akita. Cost is the money used up (meaning you don't have it anymore) to produce something. I'm quite positive the "cost" Akita is referring to is the opportunity cost and/or the cost of purchasing the print to begin with. By your logic, you should have no problem buying an EMP S BPO from me for say, 200b?
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:03:00 - [702] Edited by: Stella SGP on 28/12/2010 01:04:55 Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Akita T No, it's not God Mode, it's "easy mode at a high cost", we've covered this several times over. Poor Akita. Cost is the money used up (meaning you don't have it anymore) to produce something. T2 BPOs are the exact opposite in that they operate at no cost - hence the 'god mode' reference. You are good at most of the economic aspects of this game, for something so fundamental IRL business to be misunderstood by you puzzles me to what you do in real life. The cost Akita refers to is the money used up in acquiring the T2 BPO. Also T2 BPO does not operate at no cost. Can't be arsed to explain how manufacturing works in Eve. Do you really think there is "no added sugar" in packet juices made from concentrates even though the label says so? It baffles me even more when people tries to insult another when they can't grasp the context that words are used in. Something so fundamental to be misunderstood by you puzzles me even more to what you do in real life... Edit D**n Shai you beat me to it.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:06:00 - [703] Originally by: Shai 'Hulud I'm quite positive the "cost" Akita is referring to is the opportunity cost and/or the cost of purchasing the print to begin with. By your logic, you should have no problem buying an EMP S BPO from me for say, 200b? What is the opportunity cost in keeping a 30B ISK item that makes 12B/year and will sell for even more next year? TBH the only reason to sell it is because you think its about to get nerfed or you CBA to install the manufacturing job anymore. Its pretty hard to leverage ALL your ISK ALL the time. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:12:00 - [704] Originally by: Liang Nuren The only one making silly word war statements is you Well sadly I have to downgrade myself to your level since you people, besides crying, are incapable of doing mathematics or formulating solutions to a "perceived" problem. Just in case you didn't read the post where I specified what I expected from your arguments. Here it is.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:16:00 - [705] Originally by: Liang Nuren What is the opportunity cost in keeping a 30B ISK item that makes 12B/year and will sell for even more next year? TBH the only reason to sell it is because you think its about to get nerfed or you CBA to install the manufacturing job anymore. Its pretty hard to leverage ALL your ISK ALL the time. It is an investment, it may sell for more OR LESS isk in the following year depending on tweaks. And the opportunity cost is the missing 30Bil from my wallet which I could have used for fun!
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:22:00 - [706] Originally by: Liang Nuren What is the opportunity cost in keeping a 30B ISK item that makes 12B/year and will sell for even more next year? TBH the only reason to sell it is because you think its about to get nerfed or you CBA to install the manufacturing job anymore. Its pretty hard to leverage ALL your ISK ALL the time. -Liang Is it your contention that the cost of the prints doesn't matter at all in determining whether or not they are "fair"? Perhaps YOU would like to buy my EMP print for 200b then? To answer your question, I'd say the opportunity cost there would be somewhere around 30b + some number related to the cost of building materials needed on hand. Not surprised you couldn't derive that though
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:23:00 - [707] Originally by: Stella SGP Well sadly I have to downgrade myself to your level since you people, besides crying, are incapable of doing mathematics or formulating solutions to a "perceived" problem. I'm willing to bet that I'm much better at mathematics than both you and Akita. :) Quote: Just in case you didn't read the post where I specified what I expected from your arguments. Here it is. Yeah, I didn't miss that. Don't you worry your sweet sweet head over it - I'll answer it. :) -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:26:00 - [708] Originally by: Stella SGP It is an investment, it may sell for more OR LESS isk in the following year depending on tweaks. And the opportunity cost is the missing 30Bil from my wallet which I could have used for fun in the mean time! The opportunity cost is the missing 30 bil from your wallet ... if you can actually leverage it all. If you can't actually leverage it (and its hard to do so), then it isn't really an opportunity cost. Even trading in faction ships doesn't require that much ISK because of Margin trading and the amount of units traded. Anything else - like trying to do speculatioln - has its own opportunity costs. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:28:00 - [709] Again, not surprised you can't think of ways to fully use 30b to make isk.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:31:00 - [710] Originally by: Shai 'Hulud Again, not surprised you can't think of ways to fully use 30b to make isk. The problem isn't in finding a single use for 30B ISK - the problem is in finding continual uses for 30B ISK. You have to leverage that 30B ISK all the time in something that nets better than the T2 BPO. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:33:00 - [711] Quote: I'm sure that CCP had some reason that they didn't remove T2 BPOS - like T2 modules becoming very scarce if invention should fail. But it didn't, and invention turned out to be the silver/magic bullet. T2 prices tumbled, production rose, other people got rich, and it is still going on. T2 BPOs are becoming less and less of a factor in production, someday they'll be only a small fraction of the market. Will they still earn a slightly higher profit for the owner? Yeah, but once again, said owner most likely paid billions for that BPO. Why shouldn't he be allowed to earn it back over the course of many months? Quote: But, things like this always become more complicated as time goes on. People begin to trade these Invention In God Mode items for huge amounts of ISK. And then you start to bring up questions like "Well, what do we do with Little Johnny that just bought his T2 BPO for 32.5B ISK?" Nothing. We let him keep it. We let the market continue to evolve. If Johnny has a bit of luck and works hard he'll recoup his investment and remain a happy player. At the same time production continues to increase, more and more players enter into inventing and driving prices inexorably down making Johnny have to longer and longer to get that investment back. If he slacks off he might never recoup it. Keep in mind that as T2 prices go down the value of the BPO will also go down meaning that he just can't resell it for 32.5 billion. If the item in question gets nerfed...oh well, tough luck you knew that risk going in. There nothing complicated, nothing fancy. Quote: It's one thing to have super expensive limited run ships/items. It's quite another to have an unlimited guarantee of taking the first share of the market. I'm sorry that you feel it's simple jealousy that's driving the problem, but I assure you that it isn't. They aren't taking the "first share" they take up part of the market. As time goes by it will become a smaller and smaller share. Quote: You are in effect telling 99% of the eve population that they are not allowed to compete in Eve's "free market". Sure they can, the market is both vast and deep and there are lots of ways to make isk. You can rat in null sec, run anomalies, securing various loot drops that are worth lots of isk. You can mine, in either hi sec or null sec, money isn't as good, but for some reason some people like it. You can build T1 items and watch the market carefully and, so I'm told, make pretty good profit margins...maybe not huge isk but pretty good. You can also invent T2 items, farm wormholes, some people make isk running freighter businesses, helping people with standings for corps, jump clones, and so forth. Invention and T2 Production is but one facet of the economy. Quote: This attitude is exactly what is referred to when people say that Eve is a "good ole boys club" and nobody else is even allowed to play. I say, Jeeves, can we bring a motion to have Liang's membership to the Eve Good O'l Boys Club revoked, he is becoming a bit of a prat. Nonsense, Eve have never been an easy game to start, that first year can be tough for quite a few new players as they learn skills just to get into decent ships, but there is nothing preventing a new player from joining and working his way up. Quote: You claim they are god-mode for industrialist, you claim they rake in billions every month. Now prove it! Do the math on T2 Bpos preferably in relation to the prices which they are sold at and show me how overpowered they are. So far, I've not seen a single figure or calculation from any of you whiners justifying your unrealistic profit claims. Indeed. Take any items that has a T2 BPO and do a cost analysis and then present your numbers here for review. If what you say is true this should be quite doable....so do it.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:35:00 - [712] Originally by: Liang Nuren Yeah, I didn't miss that. Don't you worry your sweet sweet head over it - I'll answer it. :) Thats the spirit. There's much to learn when one is proven wrong. Don't you agreed that we're wasting our time bashing our heads with "You say I say"?
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.28 01:42:00 - [713] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shai 'Hulud Again, not surprised you can't think of ways to fully use 30b to make isk. The problem isn't in finding a single use for 30B ISK - the problem is in finding continual uses for 30B ISK. You have to leverage that 30B ISK all the time in something that nets better than the T2 BPO. -Liang Here's where your lack of math usage is biting you in the ass. You only need to make 4% of your capital back as profit PER MONTH to match a print that costs 2 years profit (the low end of print costs).
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.28 03:09:00 - [714] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 28/12/2010 03:14:05 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Shai 'Hulud Again, not surprised you can't think of ways to fully use 30b to make isk. The problem isn't in finding a single use for 30B ISK - the problem is in finding continual uses for 30B ISK. You have to leverage that 30B ISK all the time in something that nets better than the T2 BPO. I suggest playing the market. There's always some good bets around patch days. To be blunt, 10% per month should be achievable if you're any good at trade, 5% if you're really lazy and only check a few times a week. Even at 5% per month, you're still beating out the T2 BPO in income by 6b per year. Now if you have 300b, then a 30b T2 BPO starts to make a lot of sense. But even then, there are other choices that given similar return on effort, for example, supercap BPO copying.
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.28 03:20:00 - [715] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Akita T No, it's not God Mode, it's "easy mode at a high cost", we've covered this several times over. Poor Akita. Cost is the money used up (meaning you don't have it anymore) to produce something. T2 BPOs are the exact opposite in that they operate at no cost - hence the 'god mode' reference. You are good at most of the economic aspects of this game, for something so fundamental IRL business to be misunderstood by you puzzles me to what you do in real life. You still have to feed the BPO in order to get product and you still have to move the product. And there's opportunity cost. As several of us have pointed out with Liang, if you have a T2 BPO worth, for example, 30 billion, then you're forgoing the other things you could do with that 30 billion isk. You could blow it on something fun. Or you could put it in other types of investment like playing the markets, for example. A T2 BPO has rather poor ROI and you can do better unless you're staring at ridiculous levels of isk (hundreds of billions or more).
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.28 05:23:00 - [716] Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion Will they still earn a slightly higher profit for the owner? Yeah, but once again, said owner most likely paid billions for that BPO. Slightly higher... do you really consider 45-50% "slightly"? Most owners ~~paid~~ INVESTED billions and can ~~recover 100% + some~~ make billions more off selling it later. Anyone who wants to justify game mechanics are balanced by ISK, consider that I would pay 250b for a Rifter with 100% resists.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.28 06:01:00 - [717] Originally by: Akita T Would the game be a better place if the lottery would have never existed, if invention was the only way to get T2 items ? Sure. Originally by: Akita T No, the introduction of T2 BPOs wasn't bad game design. Just wanted those two statements to sit next to each other for LOL's. Also the way T2 BPO's exist in Eve is a text book example of things not to do when making a game because it is bad game design.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.28 06:11:00 - [718] Originally by: Sig Sour Slightly higher... do you really consider 45-50% "slightly"? Most owners ~~paid~~ INVESTED billions and can ~~recover 100% + some~~ make billions more off selling it later. Anyone who wants to justify game mechanics are balanced by ISK, consider that I would pay 250b for a Rifter with 100% resists. Is that a blanket statement for all T2 bpos? Are you personally guranteeing 100% money back + possible profits? If my memory serves me right, at peak value in the past compared to current, the owners of Cap Recharger II BPO lost 2/3 of its value and the Astarte BPO lost 1/2, This is just 2 examples of numerous other T2 bpos, not all. And if you factor in the rate of production, initial capital investment and actual cost of the item, 45-50% isn't much at all. The 2 years profit that you see mentioned in this thread is not even close to how much T2 Bpos are actually going for. Last Omber Mining Crystal II BPO sold 2 or 3 weeks ago went for 9.5 Billion, go run some numbers on it. T2 bpos generally became much cheaper after inventions. Don't forget inflation too, ISK is worth much, much less then it use to be. There is no need to justify game mechanics being balanced by ISK in T2 bpo context. Isn't Plex for ISK then ISK for characters, bpos or shiny toys rampant enough? Or are you still living in La La Land.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.28 06:36:00 - [719] Originally by: Sig Sour Just wanted those two statements to sit next to each other for LOL's. Also the way T2 BPO's exist in Eve is a text book example of things not to do when making a game because it is bad game design. Let me help you differentiate the 2 statements. I'll explain in simpler terms just for you. "Hypothetically, if inventions was already in the pipeline, then yes the lottery should never have happened and the game would have been a better place, but it wasn't (so snap out of your La La Land) and considering that there was less then 10K players online at peak times and there were no crystal balls showing the formation of cartels back then, introduction of T2 bpos seemed reasonable." Repeating my point from earlier. I believe the lottery was the best system they had at that time. It may not be perfect, but was there another way to distribute them where everyone stood chance, regardless of playstyle and profession? And before you bash me about it, no, I didn't win anything from it and I had 6 Lv 4 agents and did daily missions at least 3 times a week on each one of my 2 characters back then...
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.12.28 09:20:00 - [720] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Mara Rinn "Static" plexes were "unpinned." You will no longer be able to milk a 10/10 DED complex simply because you have the borders locked down. The 3-10/10s still exist though, they haven't been removed from the game. In the same way, T2 BPOs should be "unpinned". You should no longer be able to milk the T2 industry market simply because you bought a T2 BPO (or won it in the lottery). They WERE unpinned. It was called "introduction of the invention mechanic". No longer could T2 BPO owners milk the T2 industry market like it was a ready-to-burst cow and they some vacuuming appendages. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _

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