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@CCP: The time has come to ask your players some serious questions...!

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Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:26:00 - [1] Considering increased rate of protests and emorage spilled on these forums reaching culmination in last few weeks/days, and seeing how bad rumors picturing Eve as "utterly unplayable game" and your company as "bunch of incompetent liars" are quickly spread around by small, but certainly loud and unbelievable dedicated part of this community (hint: don't underestimate their influence because madness can cause way more damage that rational human beings could ever imagine), I think it's time for you to conduct serious large scale investigation in order to check what your playerbase REALLY thinks about current state of the game and your future plans, and also to pinpoint main issues which your paying customers find problematic or even gamebreaking. Best and probably simplest way to do this is to create a questionnaire to pop up on client login screen, once per every active account - excluding trials of course. You should keep this inquiry live for at least one month because many people are not logging regularly, plus it's time of summer holidays. Obviously, since there are alot of players with multiple accounts giving them chance to vote for several times, results could not 100% accurately represent community as whole (ideally, one paying customer = one vote)... but that's the best we can get I guess. Some might say that CSM is there to speak on behalf of community but we all know that vast majority of players are not participating in elections, not to mention that large alliances are usually mobilized to support their guys so in reality alot of 0.0 people voted not because they really liked what they've heard from particular CSM candidate but just because they were recommended to do so. So let's forget about CSM, shall we? Maybe it looked like a good idea but it turned out to be nothing else but one huge waste of time: allow each one of your players to directly tell you what he thinks, we don't need useless mediators. I won't suggest you what questions to put there, or in what form because -hopefully- you know what must be asked, and how. I think this investigation is something you MUST launch as soon as possible. That way you will not only show us, your loyal playerbase, that you do care about our opinion and counter dangerous rumors and speculations about your flaghip game and you as a company... far the most important benefit would be getting the best possible feedback from community. So just do it. Oh and publish the results afterwards, I am quite sure you wouldn't be ashamed.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:29:00 - [2] <3 polls ....
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:29:00 - [3] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Sums up what we all know as the CSM by now Fixed it for you. And also, CSM got quite a large list there already. The only think people have a problem with is CCP's defenition of SoonÖ ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Kate McCann	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:31:00 - [4] Edited by: Kate McCann on 30/07/2010 11:31:37 CCP's "soon(tm)" is "We're not fixing any existing content for 18 months".
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:31:00 - [5] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Some might say that CSM is there to speak on behalf of community but we all know that vast majority of players are not participating in elections, If players can't be bothered to vote for CSM members, they won't bother with answering a few questions.
darla voglio	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:45:00 - [6] Adding features provides playerbase growth, keeping the playerbase happy prevents it from shrinking. Said that, even if present issues are fixed, tomorrow there will be someone else crying for different reasons. CCP should not pay too much attention to players who threaten "consequences" if they don't get their "cookie": call it lag, fix of a feature, revamp or nerf of a weapon. Those who believe the bucks they pay entitle them to act as a shareholder should consider letting their account expire: their attitude is of no help, it is a weight to the entire game-community.
TriadSte Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:45:00 - [7] Edited by: TriadSte on 30/07/2010 11:46:22 The OP posts quite an interesting topic. I am in full agreement that this will give CCP the biggest and best heads up they can possibly achieve. Although CCP will keep painting the game to there own particular picture It would be great if they did in fact take on the polls answers seriously. Living in high sec for example, theres nothing really bad going on there that needs fixing, the low sec missions do in fact suck and the UBER amount of dumba$$ afterburners in loot needs changing but apart from that its fine. Get these answers put to your customer base like....now? Its the customers that allow you to achieve your goals for your game. CCP should never forget that fact. +1 to OP
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:48:00 - [8] /me passes spoon to Xroxwhatever I think you left this somewhere. Now give it a rest.
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Some might say that CSM is there to speak on behalf of community but we all know that vast majority of players are not participating in elections, If players can't be bothered to vote for CSM members, they won't bother with answering a few questions. They will pay attention if you hit them right in the head with some huge, shiny, pompously designed window, popping up the second they launch the client (or enter character selection screen, whatever). Sure some would still decide to ignore it but I believe that most of the people genuinely interested for this game will find couple of minutes to answer the questions. Just keep inquiry form simple, clean and fast (no links to external web sites or something). Did I mention it should be shiny too?
Riley Moore Obscurus Research	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:52:00 - [10] They need to start listening to the CSM's. Have the CSM's conduct an open thread asking everyone's top 10 issues with the game. they the CSM could conduct a list and sent it to CCP. CCP should also do a survey to check how well they're perceived by their players base and what areas of their business they need to improve. The last time I saw a game company take so much flak from it's most loyal player base was just before it did something stupid and cause the company sink in a brutal manner. ------- Obscuras Blueprints Store

Wizzkidy	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:57:00 - [11] Edited by: Wizzkidy on 30/07/2010 11:57:28 The last set of CSM minutes was a joke. Everything they produced in front of CCP was just swept under the carpit due to "other projects" What is the point of the CSM if all CCP decide to do is carry on with what they where doing in the first place? They might listen to the CSM but they dont ACT upon anything they have suggested. I would expect a lot more progress 2 YEARS after the CSM was created. Great idea in theory to have this team of people, don't help much if CCP is unable/won't act upon the issues they raise.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap They will pay attention if you hit them right in the head with some huge, shiny, pompously designed window, popping up the second they launch the client (or enter character selection screen, whatever). Sure some would still decide to ignore it but I believe that most of the people genuinely interested for this game will find couple of minutes to answer the questions. Just keep inquiry form simple, clean and fast (no links to external web sites or something). Did I mention it should be shiny too? The CSM elections are posted on the login screen in a huge graphical ad, all over the website, and the forums. It only takes about 3 seconds to vote. Click the link, then click the candidate to vote for. Yet thousands of people don't do it. Hell, people don't even pay attention to the patch days then post on the forums wanting to know why they can't log in The only way to get people to actively participate would be if they received something out of it. Then I'm not so sure that would work.
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap ...and seeing how bad rumors picturing Eve as "utterly unplayable game" and your company as "bunch of incompetent liars" are quickly spread around by small, but certainly loud and unbelievable dedicated part of this community (hint: don't underestimate their influence because madness can cause way more damage that rational human beings could ever imagine),...... We'll see when the next Eve quarterly report for this quarter rolls around. Personally, the only reason I'm NOT unsubbing is because I think Eve will be more or less dead as a game by the time Second Life in Space Stations and Headshot-Online roll around in 18 months.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Bomberlocks Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap ...and seeing how bad rumors picturing Eve as "utterly unplayable game" and your company as "bunch of incompetent liars" are quickly spread around by small, but certainly loud and unbelievable dedicated part of this community (hint: don't underestimate their influence because madness can cause way more damage that rational human beings could ever imagine),...... We'll see when the next Eve quarterly report for this quarter rolls around. Personally, the only reason I'm NOT unsubbing is because I think Eve will be more or less dead as a game by the time Second Life in Space Stations and Headshot-Online roll around in 18 months. Your logic confuses me. Surely that's a reason to not renew your sub? Unless your account is already paid up beyond your estimate of EVE's remaining lifespan ofc. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Foundation Vox	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:14:00 - [15] One thing I agree with very strongly is the OP's view on the CSM. They were NOT a true representation of the EVE playerbase. They had an agenda that had nothing to do with the average EVE player. Believe it or not CCP knows exactly what it's playerbase wants. The have the data on all the different stuff that our characters do when we log in to play. The conclusion they reached (Incarna) is most likely what the majority of players would like to see added. If I look at it logically I just cannot reach any other conclusion. If they had looked at the user action data and seen that 100 fleet battles were failing on a daily basis I am pretty sure we would be hearing a different tune from CCP. My 2 ISK.
Azzail	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Obviously, since there are alot of players with multiple accounts giving them chance to vote for several times, results could not 100% accurately represent community as whole (ideally, one paying customer = one vote)... but that's the best we can get I guess. So let me get this straight I pay 12 times as much as someone with one account but my voice/opinion should be equal to someone who pays only a 12th of what I pay? Hmm that doesn't seem right..
Shaalira D'arc	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:36:00 - [17] If you want participation in the polls, you could always bribe people into taking it. A token offer of 5,000 SP distributed in the same way as the downtime reimbursement would get most people to answer the questions.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Azzail So let me get this straight I pay 12 times as much as someone with one account but my voice/opinion should be equal to someone who pays only a 12th of what I pay? Hmm that doesn't seem right.. Uhm, actualy it does. You are one player. It's not about amount of money put in, it's about player oppinion. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:42:00 - [19] Edited by: Zartrader on 30/07/2010 12:46:14 Op, you have a good point. I don't regard the CSM as representative of my views in the slightest and we all know its mainly moaners who fill out surveys which gives a very skewed result. So what you propose may work. I think it's about time CCP were cut some slack though, the whines are getting silly. CCP have made a rod for their own back by being a lot more open than other companies. Some forums posters seem to want to ruin that. Other companies (Blizz') were forced to close ranks and switch to marketspeek mode because of forum idiots and I hope CCP are not forced to do the same. EDIT: Azzail, one person one vote is a basic principle of democracy as each person had ONE opinion not 12 or 100 on a given subject.. The rich and poor all have the same voice. Of course in the real world it does not work like that as the CSM proves
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.07.30 13:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Breaker77 The CSM elections are posted on the login screen in a huge graphical ad, all over the website, and the forums. It only takes about 3 seconds to vote. Click the link, then click the candidate to vote for. Yet thousands of people don't do it. It takes much more time and, should I say, effort to vote for CSM because you are supposed to actually learn about all them candidates and their agendas which are usually presented in long walls of text. That's, of course, if you're serious about that and don't want to give your vote to someone just because your CEO told you so. Player poll I am talking about communicates with players DIRECTLY and contain series of clean, simple and precise questions/optional answers and should be done pretty fast within game client. Originally by: Ressiv You are one player. It's not about amount of money put in, it's about player oppinion. Exactly. Still, people running multiple acconts can rest assured that they would get their multiple votes as well because I don't see how to prevent that.

Prime FLux Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.30 13:52:00 - [21] I would say one vote per account is fair. See it like a shareholder, one account one share. We are customers, do you think a company pay equal attention to a customers whom buys one product as to a customers who buys 1000?
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.30 13:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Prime FLux I would say one vote per account is fair. See it like a shareholder, one account one share. We are customers, do you think a company pay equal attention to a customers whom buys one product as to a customers who buys 1000? Thats kinda whats wrong with the world at the moment. At some point we started to value $ more then people. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Internet Knight The Kobayashi Maru	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Breaker77 The CSM elections are posted ... over the website. Click the link, then click the candidate to vote for. Yet thousands of people don't do it. 9 times out of 10, I can't be bothered to open a website at the time that I remember that there's a vote going on. Why should I open a website when I'm busy logging in for a fleet fight? Why should I open a website when I'm busy catching up on mail? etc An in-game interface to vote would be handy. ---
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:05:00 - [24] CSM is the voice of the people who chose to be heard. How can you expect a survey that pops up where the CSM Election notices were popped up, will have any more relevance than the CSM? If you have bugs to report, use the bug reporting system. If you have a game mechanic that you'd like to see changed, post a suggestion in "Features and Ideas". If you have issues with the management of the game, talk to the CSM delegates. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Mr Mork	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:07:00 - [25] Edited by: Mr Mork on 30/07/2010 14:08:06 The idea that the csm effects anything is frightening. I think the "what should be done" should come from the long list of petitions from people killed by bugged session change timers, aggression timers, unloadable systems, and crashed nodes. Throwing surveys and flyers at people does nothing to fix known problems its just more crap to implement. CCP needs to actually work on the customer support thing not throw a bone to forum *****s.
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Bite me inc. SRS.	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Kate McCann Edited by: Kate McCann on 30/07/2010 11:31:37 CCP's "soon(tm)" is "We're not fixing any existing content for 18 months". I believe this sums up nicely what we are all so upset about. You say we're a 'mad vocal minority full of rage', I say you are an empire dwelling carebear. Regardless of what we might find of eachother, in this SANDBOX game we should both be allowed to do what we enjoy. Seeing as how large fleet fights are definatelly something CCP brags about and promotes we (the 'mad vocal minority') find it only fair they either adjust their advertising to properly be in-line with the actual game and it's developments OR they fix it so the game is more in-line with their advertising and general consensus of what this game 'should be'. (@OP:) Your entire point is invalid. /thread __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:24:00 - [27] A lot of people tend to assume the playerbase is one entity with one voice. Its not, its 100,000 players with 100,000 voices. The best a poll can do is to make some kind of weird average out of this. A lot of us don't even know specifically what we want in advance, we may know it when we see it but that may be completely different than what we think we want. Feedback can probably act as good inspiration for game designers. Specifically when players mention what existing features they like or don't like. A semi-democratic body to govern game design or any kind of creation will turn out complete rubbish. I usually refuse to answer questionaires, because no matter how they are made, by definition they always use the wrong questions. It must be because they assume that bodies of isolated individuals think the same way. I like conversation. Two people with different opinions will often come up with a 3rd solution that is better than what the individuals could have thought of themselves. In a questionaire those two individuals will remain isolated and stuck with their unpolished points of view. In practice the only voice that can matter is the voice that cares.
oolk	Posted - 2010.07.30 15:42:00 - [28] Lag is NOT content. Get real people. That suck-up minute should get me a T2 bpo or a 40 runs bpc of some exotic ship.
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:06:00 - [29] Originally by: Mara Rinn CSM is the voice of the people who chose to be heard. How can you expect a survey that pops up where the CSM Election notices were popped up, will have any more relevance than the CSM? If you have bugs to report, use the bug reporting system. If you have a game mechanic that you'd like to see changed, post a suggestion in "Features and Ideas". If you have issues with the management of the game, talk to the CSM delegates. All of that looks cool on paper but in reality it's not working very well - we can see that fact showing its ugly face so nicely in last few weeks. IMO voting for CSM is too time consuming, CSM itself and the way it operates is complicated and inefficient, integrity and background of elected CSM members is questionable to say at least, their real influence is pathetic (and that's only partially because of CCP!), and somewhere at the end of the line we have CCP becoming completely alienated from community because of slow or broken communication channels. Bug reports are just that - bug reports, they serve one purpose which has barely anything to do with my suggestion. Oh and "features and ideas" discussion... what, you're telling me that people are still posting there in hope that someone in CCP will actually do something about it? Give me a break. 99% of those ideas are either totally unrealistic or plain stupid anyway. What I'd like to see is CCP showing more interest for average player's opinion, I'd prefer to see them constantly asking questions about this and that, testing our general attitude... rather than having occasional Fidel-style long speeches or burts of short replies on forums (which are, btw, in TERRIBLE condition). So... more active, direct approach to every one of us done through regularly organized client-integrated public polls about old features, new features, various game mechanics, future plans and everything else related to this game would be of great benefit for both us and them.
Smelly Bait	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:12:00 - [30] As a student in my third year of marketing college, im willing to offer my service to CCP in setting up questions and calculating the results. Results can be calculated in SPSS or exell what ever CCP wants. Mail me when interested on my 89m sp char on the same account as this alt

Buckaroo Kamakazee	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:59:00 - [31] Linkage Maybe now that the media is starting to pay attention, they will actually do something about it. Doubtful though.
Scout Black	Posted - 2010.07.30 18:41:00 - [32] Ive made 2 posts in the last 4 years. No more. Sorry CCP but you have lost your way. How you have let eve get so bad i'm not sure. Your obviously totally oblivious to what is really happening in game, the ccp haters have it totally right this time. What makes me laugh.. CSD report on huge fleet battles that don't happen because its impossible to engage. Your advertisements on every website I know advertise fleet fights and great pvp, your expansions have generally all focus'd on great battles that carve out 0.0. When in reality people in 0.0 have been holding out for a fix for over a year now to make it fun again. And finally you admit you have no plans or are unable to fix it. Its been a blast. But no more. There are plenty more mmog's out. I have done waiting for you to fix this one. Anyone who things 0.0 is the end game. It is..
nu artiste Gallente Metalworks Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.07.30 18:50:00 - [33] hard trolling pressure, instant steam rage release, no CCP can't be that bad... it is just entertaining to troll CCP's forums, cause you can feel like a hero and like a cry baby And being crying baby hero is extremely cool, when someone cares! I am invincible!
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.07.31 00:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Buckaroo Kamakazee Linkage Maybe now that the media is starting to pay attention, they will actually do something about it. Doubtful though. Quote: Eve Online fans are venting their fury over alleged in-game lag - which, according to some, has left the game 'broken' and unplayable. The latency is a direct result of a recent Tyrannis patch, and has resulted in outcry on the game's official forum. One prominent forumite told CVG today that the game is "broken" and that large fleet flights had been made "impossible" because of the lag. See those redish parts? That's how rumors originating from unofficial, unreliable or maybe even malicious sources are first being generated, then spread all over the internet like cancer: "Eve online fans"... "according to some"... "one prominent forumite"... what does it mean? What fans, how many of those "somes" are there, does that "prominent forumite" (lol?) have rights to speak on behalf of community as whole? Is lag really so frequently encountered and gamebreakingly bad for everyone/anywhere nowadays, or we're here dealing with opinion of some anonimous person feeding that website with filtered (possibly slightly biased/overhyped) informations? No, I'd rather hear how many players agree/deny or are simply unaware of lag issue instead of just quickly jumping to conclusions. So yeah this is one of the reasons why I feel that we as customers need to see some radical improvement in communication with CCP in near future. Community-wide, fast and easy to access public polls might come very handy. For example, if you send same question to all 300k+ active subscribers and it turns out that 50 or 80% of players think that lag has become unbearable, it would really mean something. What exactly, I'd leave to CCP to think about.
Harris Dorn	Posted - 2010.07.31 02:08:00 - [35] Originally by: Kate McCann Edited by: Kate McCann on 30/07/2010 11:31:37 CCP's "soon(tm)" is "We're not fixing any existing content for 18 months". Wrong, they are just going to keep ignoring the past 2 years of CSM ideas/requests/suggestions for another 2 years, ignore all the new suggestions in the meantime, while alluding that they will stop ignoring them after that.
Mr M 1st Republic Army	Posted - 2010.07.31 02:19:00 - [36] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap See those redish parts? That's how rumors originating from unofficial, unreliable or maybe even malicious sources are first being generated, then spread all over the internet like cancer: Some say that CCP are **** commie lizards from the Planet X, then it must be true Eve Tribune\|EVEgeek\|Firebrand Radio
Stalking Mantis Caldari Inglorious-Basterds	Posted - 2010.07.31 04:58:00 - [37] Time to Poll. And release the results of the Poll for all to see. [/url]
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.07.31 10:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Stalking Mantis Time to Poll. And release the results of the Poll for all to see. Yeah. Would be fun if it turns out that 5% of all players vote that lag is unbearable and must be put as CCP's top priority to work on in next year(s) while in the same time 95% of paying customers don't have such problems, are not interested for roleplaying drones, think that 0.0 as whole is overpowered (resource/ISK-wise) and takes way too much company resources considering the revenue CCP gets from that tiny part of the playerbase, and -finally- demand further development of the game in forms of new features like Incarna, PI, Dust, planetary flight or whatever else CCP might have on their desk. Disclaimer: I am not saying that results would necessarily look like that... but I strongly believe I was damn close.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.07.31 10:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Breaker77 The only way to get people to actively participate would be if ~~they received something out of it~~ they were severely punished for not taking part. Then I'm not so sure that would work. I'd suggest not voting = 7-day game + forum ban would be just about sufficient to get people to do it. Even then a lot of people would ignore it. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.07.31 11:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Breaker77 The only way to get people to actively participate would be if ~~they received something out of it~~ they were severely punished for not taking part. Then I'm not so sure that would work. I'd suggest not voting = 7-day game + forum ban would be just about sufficient to get people to do it. Even then a lot of people would ignore it. Or... don't allow them to click on character and enter the game until they fill up the questionnaire Seriously: I don't think it's very good idea to force people to take part in community polls.

Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.31 12:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Azzail Uhm, actualy it does. You are one player. It's not about amount of money put in, it's about player oppinion. I thought empire dwellers were quite sure that they outnumbered 0.0 dwellers. Not so sure now?
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.07.31 14:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Xroxreariad Ramatarapap Originally by: Stalking Mantis Time to Poll. And release the results of the Poll for all to see. Yeah. Would be fun if it turns out that 5% of all players vote that lag is unbearable and must be put as CCP's top priority to work on in next year(s) while in the same time 95% of paying customers don't have such problems, are not interested for roleplaying drones, think that 0.0 as whole is overpowered (resource/ISK-wise) and takes way too much company resources considering the revenue CCP gets from that tiny part of the playerbase, and -finally- demand further development of the game in forms of new features like Incarna, PI, Dust, planetary flight or whatever else CCP might have on their desk. Disclaimer: I am not saying that results would necessarily look like that... but I strongly believe I was damn close. I would love to see a questionaire that could result in that conclusion. Would be hilarious reading indeed. -- Do you believe lag is unbearable and must be CCPs top priority? (Y/N) Do you think Eve should have more lag? (Y/N) Do you think 0.0 as a whole is overpowered? (Y/N) If yes do you believe this is caused by ressources or ISK? (ressource/ISK) Do you _demand_ Incarna/Planetary flight/Dust/Whatever else CCP might think of in the future or would you prefer the game to stagnate and be lagfree? (Incarna/Stagnation) Do you think CCP gets too little revenue from 0.0 players? (Y/N) How much revenue do you feel CCP should get from 0.0 players? ___________


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