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Complexes are highly unbalanced.

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Forum Mistress	Posted - 2010.07.31 20:35:00 - [1] In my opinion, complexes found through exploration in space are highly unbalanced. I'm not talking in terms of levels of difficulty between different complexes. What I mean is within the plex itself. For example, the Cartel Prisoner Retention 8/10 complex. The first 3 rooms are of an average difficulty, and can be easily completed in a solo heavy assualt ship. The incoming DPS is fairly average and there is no webbing/scramming/neuting. However, the 4th and final room of this complex is much much harder. Upon entry you are insta-webbed by the infinate range webbing towers (which are also highly overpowered) and further webbed and warp-scrambled by incoming NPC frigates. Furthermore you also have a lot more incoming DPS from the NPC's and you are reduced to even below -90% speed. This to me, is highly unbalanced, you are happy and confident completing the first 3 rooms, yet the final room is essentially set up to definately destroy your ship. Why is this like this? And can this be altered? It is not my wish to make complexes easier, but to see some consistency of difficulty level within the individual complexes would be nice. anyone else feel this way? (P.S. Yes I am emo-rage-posting after losing my ship, but I still believe in what I say) (P.P.S. Yes, I am posting from an alt.)
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.07.31 20:59:00 - [2]
triafrenum	Posted - 2010.07.31 21:14:00 - [3] What I hear: I tried to solo an 8/10 in a hac without reading the complex information and died. Therefore the game is broken. CCP Fix it.
andeira	Posted - 2010.07.31 21:39:00 - [4] incomming DPS in that complex is not more in final room just the fact that you get webbed by 4 towers and then some more frigs wich slows down your speed wich in turn makes you die horribly cause then those shiny NPC battleships can actually hit you. Your own fault. You decided to run a complex solo without any logistics as backup then yes it can happen you die but it is a lesson for the next time. What do you think complexes are? If you think they are designed to be done solo and give you nice fat lewtz without problems you are wrong. Complexes are designed not to be easy try doing a 10/10 complex last room alway's has an NPC wich does OMGWTF damage and is actually designed to horribly murder the unprepared. now a little advice. If you want to solo any complex in angel space (7/10 8/10 10/10) buy a 4 billion isk tengu I heard it is possible to solo in those
Forum Mistress	Posted - 2010.07.31 23:15:00 - [5] Edited by: Forum Mistress on 31/07/2010 23:20:58 Edited by: Forum Mistress on 31/07/2010 23:17:27 No. You both either not read my post, or misunderstood me. I hadn't even mentioned what ship I lost, or whether I was flying solo or not. And this is not just a complaint, this how I feel after running many complexes. To correct you, there is far more incoming DPS in the final room of my example, webbed or no webbed. Secondly, It's not just this one plex, that's my entire point, that one 8/10 is just an example. There are many plexes like it, another example would be the serpentis 10/10 (i can't remember the name) where the rooms are easy to complete, the final room is also easy to complete (the incoming NPC dps is minimal) however, you must destroy a serpentis base, which has an armor repair rate that requires DPS that is far greater than what you needed to kill all the NPC's there, again, it is unbalanced.
Ran Khanon Amarr Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.08.01 00:11:00 - [6] Edited by: Ran Khanon on 01/08/2010 00:11:43 Originally by: Forum Mistress Edited by: Forum Mistress on 31/07/2010 23:20:58 Edited by: Forum Mistress on 31/07/2010 23:17:27 No. You both either not read my post, or misunderstood me. I hadn't even mentioned what ship I lost, or whether I was flying solo or not. And this is not just a complaint, this how I feel after running many complexes. To correct you, there is far more incoming DPS in the final room of my example, webbed or no webbed. Secondly, It's not just this one plex, that's my entire point, that one 8/10 is just an example. There are many plexes like it, another example would be the serpentis 10/10 (i can't remember the name) where the rooms are easy to complete, the final room is also easy to complete (the incoming NPC dps is minimal) however, you must destroy a serpentis base, which has an armor repair rate that requires DPS that is far greater than what you needed to kill all the NPC's there, again, it is unbalanced. This is not unbalanced either. It is the challenging part of the plex for which you need to prepare or fail. Why on earth should a plex have consistent tanking and dps requirements throughout the whole thing? Long live the surprises and odd aspects to some of the plexes; they are the most interesting bits of what pve has to offer in EVE. Was doing some 4/10 for the first time a week ago and the first room was fairly easy, then the second room I needed to kill 4 forcefield thingies first because they repped stuff up before I could kill anything; first I had to screw around with my overview so I could actually target them. All the while I was webbed and the damage got pretty heavy once the rats had closed in. I had to overheat my Harby's repper and barely managed to turn the tide at 10% armor left. Quite an exciting moment which I wont forget so soon :) The next time I did that one I went in with a better tank and tipped the scale at 50% armor left. Just be prepared to fail now and then and learn from your mistakes. I agree with everything Barakkus posts.
Goose99	Posted - 2010.08.01 01:07:00 - [7] Anything that cannot be soloed is, of course, unbalanced.
Forum Mistress	Posted - 2010.08.01 01:12:00 - [8] meh. i forgot i was on the internets. nerf ecm.
Gabi Osterhagen Nuclear Combat Goats	Posted - 2010.08.01 01:18:00 - [9] Don't use the word balance, that invites flamers. The word you are looking for is "scale". The difficulty doesn't scale up as you proceed further into the Plex.
Sjugar	Posted - 2010.08.01 04:36:00 - [10] Yeah, it needs to be balanced, those first 3 rooms are much too easy, put in some more ships and some more stasis towers and voila, it's balanced. Tbh, I do the 8/10 quite often and the first 3 rooms are a joke. These complexes should be tuned for groups of battleships and now at's like a big yaaaawn slowboating from 1 gate to the next.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.01 06:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Ran Khanon Edited by: Ran Khanon on 01/08/2010 00:11:43 Originally by: Forum Mistress Edited by: Forum Mistress on 31/07/2010 23:20:58 Edited by: Forum Mistress on 31/07/2010 23:17:27 No. You both either not read my post, or misunderstood me. I hadn't even mentioned what ship I lost, or whether I was flying solo or not. And this is not just a complaint, this how I feel after running many complexes. To correct you, there is far more incoming DPS in the final room of my example, webbed or no webbed. Secondly, It's not just this one plex, that's my entire point, that one 8/10 is just an example. There are many plexes like it, another example would be the serpentis 10/10 (i can't remember the name) where the rooms are easy to complete, the final room is also easy to complete (the incoming NPC dps is minimal) however, you must destroy a serpentis base, which has an armor repair rate that requires DPS that is far greater than what you needed to kill all the NPC's there, again, it is unbalanced. This is not unbalanced either. It is the challenging part of the plex for which you need to prepare or fail. Why on earth should a plex have consistent tanking and dps requirements throughout the whole thing? Long live the surprises and odd aspects to some of the plexes; they are the most interesting bits of what pve has to offer in EVE. Was doing some 4/10 for the first time a week ago and the first room was fairly easy, then the second room I needed to kill 4 forcefield thingies first because they repped stuff up before I could kill anything; first I had to screw around with my overview so I could actually target them. All the while I was webbed and the damage got pretty heavy once the rats had closed in. I had to overheat my Harby's repper and barely managed to turn the tide at 10% armor left. Quite an exciting moment which I wont forget so soon :) The next time I did that one I went in with a better tank and tipped the scale at 50% armor left. Just be prepared to fail now and then and learn from your mistakes. Destroying a structure that don't fight back but has a lot of HP and a high repair rate is a challenge? Call it: "The boring part of the plex" and you are much more precise.
Tarasina	Posted - 2010.08.01 09:18:00 - [12] I did a 8/10 with a buddy once too. That last room? A killer. I was in Drake and buddy in HAC, we had to warp out 4-5 times before actually being able to tank any of the incoming DPS, wasted tons of drones there. The main problem was landing RIGHT ON TOP of all the mobs. And the structure that drops the loot? We couldn't kill it, buddy had to get a geddon and even then we barely blew it up. I sincerely doubt we could have done last room even with 3 logistics without warping out. It is fecked up!
Jita Jenn	Posted - 2010.08.01 15:19:00 - [13] Originally by: Sjugar Yeah, it needs to be balanced, those first 3 rooms are much too easy, put in some more ships and some more stasis towers and voila, it's balanced. Tbh, I do the 8/10 quite often and the first 3 rooms are a joke. These complexes should be tuned for groups of battleships and now at's like a big yaaaawn slowboating from 1 gate to the next. This. If you need 3-4 ships to complete the last room of a plex where the first rooms are soloable, then what's the point of the first few rooms? PvE in EVE is really crap tbh and not really worth doing plexes imo. If you want ISK then ratting belts will make you more in the long run. If you're actually looking for a fun challenge with PvE then you're playing the wrong game.
triafrenum	Posted - 2010.08.01 16:17:00 - [14] Edited by: triafrenum on 01/08/2010 16:18:54 Originally by: Jita Jenn If you're actually looking for a fun challenge with PvE then you're playing the wrong game. Correct eve is a game centered around PVP. This game is not advertised as a game with great pve. Every new trailer shows people fighting other people. I have heard of this great game that is the polar opposite of EVE its got great pve and you never have to interact with another person its called world of warcraft.
Forum Mistress	Posted - 2010.08.01 17:49:00 - [15] Good tip on using the word scale. Yet it's not just difficulty 'scale' that seems to be the problem, just some general consistency is required. If you are going to make the rooms 'scale' in difficulty, then have them 'scale' consistently. For example, if you can solo the first few rooms of a plex, and the NPC's of the last room, them you should be able to defeat the objective station solo.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.08.01 17:53:00 - [16] Its exploration. EXPLORE THE UNKNOWN. They lured you in by building up a false sense of confidence...then blew up your spaceship. Welcome to the unknown. Have a nice day.
achoura	Posted - 2010.08.01 19:46:00 - [17] Edited by: achoura on 01/08/2010 19:49:49 You realise ofc, that this is deliberate design. The other 8/10 plexes have far more rats than this, staggered in stages with numbers increasing. The whole point is the false sense of security then surprised. Idk what you'll do come expansion time when you wake up one day and discover ccp "tweaked" a plex you knew which promptly ganks you e.g. I discovered today that sometime recently the torp range in dread fleet staging, gave our raven a nasty surprise. Welcome to eve. It isn't fair. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.08.01 20:16:00 - [18] Originally by: achoura Welcome to eve. It isn't fair. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Ran Khanon Amarr Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.08.02 09:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Forum Mistress For example, if you can solo the first few rooms of a plex, and the NPC's of the last room, them you should be able to defeat the objective station solo. And by which law of internet spaceships would that be? :-/ "Forum Mistress¦ Law Of Predictable Plex Difficulty"? Why shouldn't it be possible to easily mop up the outlying defending forces with your army prior to a castle siege only to find that gaining access to the castle itself will be a much harder task? Just to make a historical reference. You now KNOW which challenge this plex poses, you clean it out solo and ask a few friends / bring some alts to take the station out. Apart from you not wanting to share the loot with others it is hard to see the motivation behind this particular complaint. I agree that there are more interesting things to do than shooting at an npc station but you get to have lootz at the end which is always a nice motivation for me at least. I agree with everything Barakkus posts.
justin666	Posted - 2010.08.02 09:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: achoura Welcome to eve. It isn't fair. have you tryed turning it off and on again lol

Forum Mistress	Posted - 2010.08.04 14:38:00 - [21] Originally by: justin666 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: achoura Welcome to eve. It isn't fair. have you tryed turning it off and on again lol rofl ye but client crashed xD
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.05 11:37:00 - [22] Wasn't the bonus room of AE or GE like this once upon a time? I'm sure I remember fleeing in terror at the DPS unleashed upon enterring it back in the day. Seems normal to me. Some things are not meant to be done solo. It's like trying to do epic quests in WoW...some can be done by over powered, bubbled, tin cans (read: paladins)...most cannot. It's an MMO, you want the special stuff, play with friends. -G
Janjan Jansen Amarr Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2010.08.05 11:45:00 - [23] Another example is the Serpentis 4/10 plex first room a breeze. The 2nd room you get a very very nasty BS after you and some other stuff. Which you need alot more tank and dps for. I think the OP means this kind of thing or im oblivious
Marcias Rex	Posted - 2010.08.05 17:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Tarasina It is fecked up! Then when I did the exact same 8/10 yesterday with a Drake and repping dominix (and barely needed the Domi) with ease I must have done something wrong... As for the station at the end, let me guess, you shot at it from close range?? To keep it from repping it's armor you have to shoot at it from range (I go 40km from it, anything closer and it does that insane "reinforced repping" thing. There is nothing wrong with the complexes at all, it's simply that inexperianced explorers don't know enough about them (or the game) to handle them correctly (and then in their brilliance they choose to complain about the game rather than learning from their mistakes). Exploring is my main pve activitey and the only time I ever have a problem is when I fall asleep at the keyboard lol.
Barrak Caldari Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.08.05 19:31:00 - [25] It sounds like maybe the rooms 2 and 3 are wrong and they infact should be harder...... Indirectly..... be careful what you wish for......... In this life (Eve) dying is easy, its living thats hard. Talent does not count, its what you do with it that does
Tiernen	Posted - 2010.08.06 20:30:00 - [26] IMO it sounds fine to me. It's the last room, where all the best loot will drop...do you really want it to be easy? I'm an old school gamer (started with the D&D boxed set in the purple box), and I've played a lot of MMORPGs, and the final encounter (boss fight in most games) is always much harder than the rest of the dungeon/mission/quest/whatever. I've always been in dungeons et al where an early fight was the hardest, with the rest a breeze...not many liked those much, since the rest was kind of disappointing & a major anticlimax. Just my .02 ISK
Genma Zero	Posted - 2010.08.07 01:50:00 - [27] Hell; ****! 80% just overlook the First thread and then start to flame. Guys; please do not kill all opinions befor asking why... So; I agree; even as a "Newb" for some of you. Another good example is even the Pith Deadspace Depot 2/10. The first is to get the Key; no prob (if he decides to spawn between 12o'clock and lunch.). The next is not so hard to do; lil Punisher was enough and I fragged the Smallfry fast and was too fast to get hit by the Destroyers. Even if I took the whole package; I still was able to Tank long enough to increase distance and restore cap. A civ-Booster is enough iff you had Damage Control and the 15% Bonus of the Ship to Resistance. In the second, ther is some more trouble; cruisers cross your path and Jam you without a pause. Ok; but still you can maneuver just a little bit and all will work out fine. But (excuse me; I dont know if it was 3rd or 4th Pocket; i think it was 3rd) then; you warp in and as greet you got Jammed and webbed. Ok; so far this is good scaled; but the prob is; now ther mostly Kestrel and Caracal-like Ships; using Missiles. So the DMG is scaled up to the Turrets used before; but Missiles cant be outruned and will hit you with full Damage. Nice. Ive tried it to tank; no way. Even a Buddy tried with Frac-Ship and fraction-Items all over. He cant Tank this horror either. You need up to 6 Frigs (If Tech II or better then less) to do this... Or you use Range; so flee at first and then Snipe from around 30k; but for that you need REAL good DPS outcome. So in the end it is all a Matter of Tactic. But it is not good Scaled; because if such a "swith" in the manner you tank is build in; then please more of this. Do not like some Blizz-dumbs and scale down the Bossmob; scale up the way to him. That is the fun; or not? If CCP would hide little dirty Traps in every Pocket; then it would be ok. Even if they let some Mobs switch behaviour (so you never know whats in there you go) to keep up the "Fear-from-the-unknown"-Feeling; this woul be nice. But not in a way that makes a level before harder than a level after. But: It is fun after all!
Laila M	Posted - 2010.08.07 09:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Janjan Jansen Another example is the Serpentis 4/10 plex first room a breeze. The 2nd room you get a very very nasty BS after you and some other stuff. Which you need alot more tank and dps for. I think the OP means this kind of thing or im oblivious The only thing that might be a bit difficult might be the fact that the overseer has a strong tank. Otherwise this plex is absolutely inline with the potential rewards, especially since you enter the plex in a distance to the spawn position that allows you to dictate range.


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