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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.08.27 12:04:00 -
[61]
Trebor Daehdoow,
Thank you !
That's the point with enough detail we need Ithink.
Please make a distinct post for that point.
I think all the guys/girls taht signed the Quality Issue thread should now know what you are doing.
At the moment CCP is just giving us technicalpoints about lag but no information about Baclog/Quality.
Please advert this work more !
Yeay
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.08.27 17:45:00 -
[62]
I finished my second draft last night; 1600+ words.
I will be gathering and incorporating comments from my fellow CSMs and CCP staff over the next few days.
Once it is in the pipeline for release and we have a release date, I'll post something more conspicuous.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.08.31 15:51:00 -
[63]
Dear CSM members,
You can take a break and make some paper planes with the meeting Minutes.
CCP answered not here but in the media and without your review in my understanding...
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1327362&page=91
Interviez
18 month prior anything and nothing will change cause they have their plan to refactor bugs and half finished features.
Yeay
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.01 20:02:00 -
[64]
..." I donĘt think players want to lose their "Excel in Space."
Some one tell me this is a joke!
Syn Callibri Mistress of the Blood Pact "Naut-elghinyrr" of Vulkor-Khaine
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Valeronx
Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures
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Posted - 2010.09.08 07:24:00 -
[65]
Any news on a release date?
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.08 11:18:00 -
[66]
The current draft of the report of on the August planning meetings was discussed during the Sep-05 CSM meeting; you can read the raw logs of the meeting for the details of the discussion.
A vote on whether to release the report was called; it failed 3-6.
At present, we are working on a revised draft, which will be discussed at the next meeting, which is this weekend.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.09.08 12:13:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow The current draft of the report of on the August planning meetings was discussed during the Sep-05 CSM meeting; you can read the raw logs of the meeting for the details of the discussion.
A vote on whether to release the report was called; it failed 3-6.
At present, we are working on a revised draft, which will be discussed at the next meeting, which is this weekend.
I find this voting result to be really saddening.
It makes me wonder why you go all the way to create such a list, ask players for input and cycle it through CCP when the reason for not releasing the result is "because it might change before release".
That is always the case and can never be excluded. Following that reasoning you should never release any information of any kind until it is released by CCP themselves.
You weren't afraid to show that CCP was unwilling to commit any resources to your suggestions during the summit, but now you are afraid to show what CCP was willing to consider from this list because "it might look bad". What has changed?
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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.08 13:07:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 08/09/2010 13:07:33 Trebor Daehdoow,
Thank you for your job.
Don't you think that CCP is now using this point to discredit your work ?
We all wait from this report. If we can't have CCP view it's not a problem but we want to know your view. Even if there is blank line where stated : CCP don't give information.
CCP is now a Fat real Life ISK company we can't expect them to listen to their customer anymore.
But more CSM Meeting Notice I see without Meeting Minutes less I trust in your work.
Even if just point, please 1 meeting = 1 minutes.
Yeay
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Major Rocks
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Posted - 2010.09.08 14:11:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Yeay Fritg Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 08/09/2010 13:07:33 Trebor Daehdoow,
Thank you for your job.
Don't you think that CCP is now using this point to discredit your work ?
We all wait from this report. If we can't have CCP view it's not a problem but we want to know your view. Even if there is blank line where stated : CCP don't give information.
CCP is now a Fat real Life ISK company we can't expect them to listen to their customer anymore.
But more CSM Meeting Notice I see without Meeting Minutes less I trust in your work.
Even if just point, please 1 meeting = 1 minutes.
Yeay
More likely then CCP getting in the way, is other CSM members not getting the bigger picture. At this point it doesn't matter how much detail or content, what matters is that we see progress. If y'all want to wait for big stuff or deliverables, you can wait 18 months, this still is CCP. They are improving tho, but yeah those two interviews from Mr. Ward and Mr. Carriers really bleeds that at that level they just don't get the troubles. I still can't see CCP getting in the way tho. But yeah, if some CSM vote against because they want to see stuff complete, they are delusional. This is step by step, and you can't leave gaps.
Maybe some CSM members are just wanting to put the pieces in order for their campaigning that will probably start to begin again at the end of the fall. That is more likely, combined with at least a few of them being caught in awareness of "omg but this isn't fun, there is no drama"
Just put it on a blog or something. Do like Hilmar does, sidestep chokepoints, you know he wants you to.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.08 15:11:00 -
[70]
First of all, when I said "we" are working in my previous post, I should have made it more clear that "we" = "the CSM". Several of the delegates who voted against the release of the current draft are contributing to a revision.
So, while I totally understand the concerns being expressed here, I would counsel patience until after our meeting this Sunday. I am hopeful that this will all be resolved by then.
I recognize that sometimes the pace of events is frustratingly slow, but this is in part a consequence of the fact that CSM is an evolving institution, and in particular now that we have Stakeholder status (because of the hard work of CSM 1-4), there are process issues we are having to work through -- which is a good thing, if you think about it in a long-term perspective.
With respect to the minutes, doing edited minutes for these bi-weekly meetings was a fairly big undertaking; I did the first pass on several of them, and it's multiple hours of work. Given that relatively few people read the edited minutes, and instead prefer to just browse the raw logs, TeaDaze decided that it wasn't worth the effort, and TBH I agree with him. I for one would rather spend the time researching AH proposal threads and massaging them into shape for discussion at a future meeting.
If there is a particular thing in the raw minutes that you need clarification on, I am sure that I or another CSM will be happy to oblige.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.08 15:27:00 -
[71]
Thank you.
Personally a Meeting minutes like this would be good for me:
- Point - Topic Summary - Decision Summary - CSM Next Action + Date - CCP Next Action + Date
The points, I feel the ones I'm interested are the harder ones : - CCP official answer on the Backlog priority and a planning of Bug resolution. - Is CCP confirming after your Prioritisation Exercice that they don't resolve any bug or focus on quality prior 18 month ? (Means the forum voice is not judged relevant.)
Yeay
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.09.09 23:16:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow With respect to the minutes, doing edited minutes for these bi-weekly meetings was a fairly big undertaking; I did the first pass on several of them, and it's multiple hours of work. Given that relatively few people read the edited minutes, and instead prefer to just browse the raw logs, TeaDaze decided that it wasn't worth the effort, and TBH I agree with him. I for one would rather spend the time researching AH proposal threads and massaging them into shape for discussion at a future meeting.
If there is a particular thing in the raw minutes that you need clarification on, I am sure that I or another CSM will be happy to oblige.
Originally I was spending about 5-6 hours a meeting editing the minutes (though with later meetings of CSM4 the number of issues under discussion dropped and so there was less to edit).
Officially only the raw logs are required to be published but I aimed to provide a meeting summary as well as TL:DR type results. Due to changes at work, I've had far less free time to spend on CSM and what time I have has been taken up with the increase in communication with CCP since the summit. Robert has helped prepare some of the minutes, but he is currently busy editing our CSM "dev blog" (which is taking shape nicely thanks to the time he has put in).
But enough of my excuses
Because the raw logs alone are not a very quick overview of the meetings, I provide voting results on the CSM Database as a replacement to the old TL:DR minutes. I plan to back-fill the missing summary minutes in December when I'll be unemployed and thus have lots of time to spend on this stuff, but for now the priority is voting summary and raw logs for context.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:33:00 -
[73]
Thank you,
May I please ask a CSM confirmation about the vote point stated in this post ?
I think it's best to link it with the Meeting point.
Strange CSM position
When do you release us something ? Fix date possible ?
Yeay
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:28:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Yeay Fritg When do you release us something ? Fix date possible ?
As trebor pointed out in the thread, we sent it to CCP on monday. From there on, publication is out of our hands so we cant give you a fixed date.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Katy Ling
Gallente Crimnson Concept Flame Care Factor
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Posted - 2010.12.01 15:11:00 -
[75]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero ... Time is the only real resource that's inelastic in EVE;...
... In point of fact, it takes years until a full investment in learning skills sees the time invested rewarded by time savings. ...
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero They're not skills for the sake of skills, they're skills for the sake of time.
They are a waste of time and doesn't add any enjoyment for anyone. Yes I have over 10.5 million SP in learning skills spread across my chars and I can't wait to see them removed.
it is a good move from ccp to remove the Learning skills, in the aspect that new players will be able to invest the time in more usefull skills, to learn about the game and have fun.
it is also good that players that trained those skills a long time ago, have the skill points back and may invest on some LVL 5 specialisation.
but what about people that spend a considerable time training the learning skills to LVL 5, having no fun and no sense of going anywhere, and now can't have they're time returned !? because you can surely return the skill points, yes ... but not the extra advantage that it would give, in relation to people that chose not to painfully train them to that extra LVL 5's.
and way only +12 points over the base attributes ? why not +13 for example !? there are so many interesting activity's in eve, surely people should have better chances of trying more of them.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:11:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Katy Ling but what about people that spend a considerable time training the learning skills to LVL 5, having no fun and no sense of going anywhere, and now can't have they're time returned !? because you can surely return the skill points, yes ... but not the extra advantage that it would give, in relation to people that chose not to painfully train them to that extra LVL 5's
I understand and appreciate this aspect of the issue, and have raised it in the CSM internal forums. The problem is that there is no obvious way, given that learning skills are going away, and given the limitations that CCP is working under while removing learning skills, to address it. The people who trained to 5/5 are losing a long-term edge that they expected to have, so in that respect, it is a nerf relative to other players.
I have argued for, at a later date, tweaking remaps so they are slightly more extreme, bringing the max rate up to 2760, but this does not address the relative advantage issue.
The only consolation I can provide at this point is to point out that the people who trained to 5/5 were clearly thinking about the long-term -- you wouldn't train them if you didn't intend to play the game for years -- and the whole point of removing learning skills (from CCP's point of view) is to make the infamous learning cliff a bit less daunting for new players, thus improving the long-term health of the game.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.02 11:54:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Katy Ling but what about people that spend a considerable time training the learning skills to LVL 5, having no fun and no sense of going anywhere, and now can't have they're time returned !? because you can surely return the skill points, yes ... but not the extra advantage that it would give, in relation to people that chose not to painfully train them to that extra LVL 5's.
It was a choice (pretty stupid one considering Presence 5 never could repay itself due to lack of enough charisma based skills). But anyways, the people going 5/5 did enjoy a higher SP accumulation speed while it lasted and they will have more reimbursed SP now to use for skills they aren't min/maxed for. So all in all fair. And yes I do train at 2772SP/h on this char at the moment, I just didn't take all skills to 5/5 for various reasons.
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