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History question: Why Jita?

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Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2010.08.03 13:00:00 - [1] As I'm not a long term player I'm lacking long term experience about EVE market hubs. The question I'd like to ask all of you: Why/How did Jita become what seems to be the main market hub? Jits market importance must have grown over time... with advantages outweighting disadvantages. Was it "just" the presence of ice belts in high sec which made Jita bloom initially?
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.03 13:06:00 - [2] may helpbut it's for lots of reasons --
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.03 13:32:00 - [3] Seem to be missing the info on highway and market nerf.. Some main player operators was forced to shift there when the Highway connections were removed and meta loot was introduced to the scc. The SCC nerf made the bazaar and NAGA loot shop operation forced to move where the mission runners were. Prior the runners would sell bulk to the shop and the outlet that was the hub prior to jita. Thus contrary to many theories the reason for Jita is mainly ccp choices to cater to the PVE rather than the "PVP" crowd. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.08.03 13:35:00 - [4] Originally by: RaTTuS may helpbut it's for lots of reasons Yeah lots of info in that article. You may want to know also that Yulai was the original superhub of Eve, and because of a change in jump routes Yulai lost its position to the hubs we know today. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom for traders / Hydra Investment Fund
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.03 13:39:00 - [5] Edited by: SencneS on 03/08/2010 13:44:11 The question is not "Why Jita" the question is "Why Jita 4-4" :) There are other Caldari Navy stations in Jita, why did Jita 4-4 get the premier spot. Level 4 missions? I honestly can't remember I was running Amarr missions when Jita had agents so but it seems to me that other stations in the system would be better suited given warp out, station exist clutter etc. If you take Amarr for example, the ship poop out the bottom but it's mostly clear in the direct path of the exit because the games mechanics forces you on the horizontal plan. Jita is for many reasons the question was asked a few years back by at a Fan Fest meeting. China runs it's own instance of EVE and was brand new. No market population etc it was on the economical report Dr. E hosted it. Guess which system/Station turned into their main hub... Jita 4-4... And this was AFTER the belts in high-sec where stripped, the Agents where located in the EVE We play so Jita didn't have level 4 agents etc. Jita is actually "out of the way" in the grand scale of "Shipping Efficiency" even when including multiple regions. Perimeter one less Jump has just as many stations and exits, and is again one jump away from three different regions. So why did China pick Jita? - According to Dr. E the only reason is because.... That's our main market hub.. Pure copy-cat of what was already running. If you look from a Shipping efficiency aspect Jita is actually.. Out of the way. So it can't be that. If you look at Production potential, there are other systems with more slots and one of those systems is better Shipping efficiency across EVE so it can't be that. If you look at Agents, it most certainly isn't that any more although it might have been at one stage. Most Mission hubs have production slots but are deliberately light on stations. So CCP considers Jita is Jita because of Agents otherwise they would throw level 4s anywhere and not in systems with only a few stations. What made it start to be the Trade Hub is probably something it is long missing now, however what keeps it the master hub now is... "Herd Instinct" Just like China picked Jita 4-4 with no real reason to do so. Amarr for Life
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.03 14:03:00 - [6] Herd instinct and critical mass arguments are all good and generally true.. The thing is that the history is more important.. What is always missing from that sweet herd analogy is that HERDs have a leader. Something is driving the herds, and in this case the people doing that was mainly ccp in their choices of changes to the system.. I have been ranting about the nerfing of the scc market operation for quite a few years, and imho many seem to ignore how relevant it would be to take a second look at market dynamics. The change to office rental seemed to work quite nicely, I am holding out for that same high volatile dynamic price system to hit all the other npc to player rental and payment features. Human behavior and especially economic ones are almost always governed by some sort of exponential scaling, it would be nice to see this work in EVE to.. Also I think a general set of new eyes on markets would help in thinking load balancing of the bandwidth and thus lag issues and congestion in general. Denerf markets and we might just get a better game.. -- Unlimited outstanding orders. Limit by daily transactions. Unlimited contracts: Boost Shipping opportunity. Dedicated Online webbased market database, with fog of war only on Intraday, or skillbased range. NPC Costs based on supply and demand EVERYWHERE, reducable by standing, player, corp and alliance based. NPC to player and corp calculation system based on Highest score modified up and down by percentages, not on a summation-like average. This to effectively promote group play and less fractioned solutions for high sec POS. Highsec wars should be exponetially costly unless mutual, optimally based on a fraction of the destructiveness of the war, thus using the paid insurance cost as a war cost. Destroy 1B in a week means the price would be 10% so 100M reducible with skills and standing with the faction where your buying aggression rights. Bounty system payout based on standing with issuers. Thus the pot is shared/divided/paid out based on skill and standing with the pot contributors. Insurance based on factions and with price differences depending on supply and demand(its really a usefull economic model).. Thus making different locations interesting for different purposes. In short FIX economics and a lot of consequences would follow.. Will maybe bring a lot of tears, but it could just be the medicine the doctor forgot to order.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Henrittta	Posted - 2010.08.03 14:04:00 - [7] Didn't jita have a few of the static plexs back in the day when they were in high sec. i think one of those was close to 4-4.
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2010.08.03 14:04:00 - [8] Originally by: RaTTuS may helpbut it's for lots of reasons Thanks. Network Effect, Bandwagon Effect and Hotelling Effect fits it pretty much when it comes down to my personal choice of trading in Jita here and there these days. Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Some main player operators was forced to shift there when the Highway connections were removed and meta loot was introduced to the scc Thanks for mentioning. I did not know about Yulai so far... How did Jita come about?
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.03 14:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania What is always missing from that sweet herd analogy is that HERDs have a leader. That would be true to start a herd but Jita doesn't need leaders now. About the only think keeping Jita the main hub is Herd Instinct. Amarr for Life
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2010.08.03 14:44:00 - [10] Originally by: SencneS Jita doesn't need leaders now. About the only thing keeping Jita the main hub is Herd Instinct. Herd instinct or leading industrialists feeding and milking the "Jita Herd" with priority? Probably it's two sides of the same medal.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.03 15:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Lederstrumpf Herd instinct or leading industrialists feeding and milking the "Jita Herd" with priority? Probably it's two sides of the same medal. Loosely at best, leading industrialists know they can get better sell prices in other locations, but in terms of raw materials Jita is usually the cheapest because of the high amount of competition there. You could even argue that each item has two distinct leaders. 1) The lowest sell order. 2) The higher buy order. These leaders can change as frequently as every 30 seconds. And both leaders effect each other and can consume each other at any given time. This would indicate each item is it's own herd in a community made up of hundreds of herds. Each herd has a passive effect of other herds of similar type. PI for example, if Robotics is up, it stands to reason that Mechanical Parts/Electronic Parts will be up as well. Though each item has it's two leaders one does effect the others performance. But Jita on the whole, as in all the Herds and communities... That has no leaders. People go there because that's where everyone else goes. :) Amarr for Life
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.03 15:20:00 - [12] Originally by: Lederstrumpf Originally by: SencneS Jita doesn't need leaders now. About the only thing keeping Jita the main hub is Herd Instinct. Herd instinct or leading industrialists feeding and milking the "Jita Herd" with priority? Probably it's two sides of the same medal. Indeed.. and it does not help that the herders staff was removed with the market nerf. Without the tools to shift things PVP based , then PVE is the rule and hence Jita persists. It would be a small thing to depopulate Jita a lot, if we had those tools and features. More logical barriers of entry, into different parts of the game, and ofc a supply and demand based model on NPC side as mentioned. Either make the npcs more dynamic or phase them the F out of the game entirely. We dont even need ME and PE slots on npcs if players could rent out slots PUBLICALLY. then prices would be fixed all by themselves.. Fix POS access and include more access control features, also allow the "severence" feature to be individual to allow "limited" corp jumping. So that you could not jump back to npc corp fast, but could do so to corps you had preset "access" to. The easy way would be making corp assets based on sertificates, and link the medal and certificate systems. So say you had a public showing CEO of a sister company, that would also show in your corp history, then you could swap back and fourth. OFC this would mean the war limitation would need to be removed. This would not be a problem in a grief perspective is war mechanics got tweaked/balanced as mentioned above. Again blanket war decs and needless long wars would be reduced with a scaled and balanced system. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.03 16:24:00 - [13] Originally by: SencneS it seems to me that other stations in the system would be better suited given warp out, station exist clutter etc. If you undock from Jita 4-4 you can instawarp to Planet 4. Why waste time aligning and risk being scanned down and ganked when you can instawarp to a celestial and make a few bookmarks on the way? IMO, that makes this station on of the best choices in terms of undocking.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.03 16:31:00 - [14] What we need is unlimited buy and sell orders, this would also fix 0.0 large fleet scale lag!
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2010.08.03 18:58:00 - [15] I want to say one word to you. Just one word. "Implants." I was around when Yulai was just beginning to take off, and as I recall the one thing that everyone went to Yulai for was to buy and sell implants. You would get a bunch from missions that you couldn't use and you would take them to Yulai and get the ones you needed. Really, nothing else seemed special about Yulai at least compared with other regional Hubs. It was the most centrally located, easiest to get to from most of empire, but not that different. I did know some people that used to keep buy and sell orders of implants and had huge inventories making pretty good money on the trading margins and the volume. So they were the original market makers. At the time, if I was looking for meta 3 or 4 modules, I would have to travel around to many regions to get everything I needed, but it wasn't too bad because you could hit just about every empire region in about an hour in a shuttle to shop around. When the "highways" were eliminated (there were about ten *long* "half-way across empire" jumps taken out) Yulai was pretty well isolated and I think the market just moved to the largest Caldari regional hub, Caldari being the most populous race and not too remote. Why Jita 4-4 was the regional hub is another question. I remember mining 1 or 2 jumps from Jita before it became big. The were some major producers that bought raw ore in huge quantities that attracted the miners, but I can't remember exactly which station. Anyway, once the highways were eliminated, flying around to multiple regions was a huge pain and Jita just grew from there, quickly outpassing Yulai. Good work CCP!
Thoraxe Rig Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.03 19:11:00 - [16] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 03/08/2010 13:44:11 The question is not "Why Jita" the question is "Why Jita 4-4" :) There are other Caldari Navy stations in Jita, why did Jita 4-4 get the premier spot. Level 4 missions? I honestly can't remember I was running Amarr missions when Jita had agents so but it seems to me that other stations in the system would be better suited given warp out, station exist clutter etc. If you take Amarr for example, the ship poop out the bottom but it's mostly clear in the direct path of the exit because the games mechanics forces you on the horizontal plan. Jita is for many reasons the question was asked a few years back by at a Fan Fest meeting. China runs it's own instance of EVE and was brand new. No market population etc it was on the economical report Dr. E hosted it. Guess which system/Station turned into their main hub... Jita 4-4... And this was AFTER the belts in high-sec where stripped, the Agents where located in the EVE We play so Jita didn't have level 4 agents etc. Jita is actually "out of the way" in the grand scale of "Shipping Efficiency" even when including multiple regions. Perimeter one less Jump has just as many stations and exits, and is again one jump away from three different regions. So why did China pick Jita? - According to Dr. E the only reason is because.... That's our main market hub.. Pure copy-cat of what was already running. If you look from a Shipping efficiency aspect Jita is actually.. Out of the way. So it can't be that. If you look at Production potential, there are other systems with more slots and one of those systems is better Shipping efficiency across EVE so it can't be that. If you look at Agents, it most certainly isn't that any more although it might have been at one stage. Most Mission hubs have production slots but are deliberately light on stations. So CCP considers Jita is Jita because of Agents otherwise they would throw level 4s anywhere and not in systems with only a few stations. What made it start to be the Trade Hub is probably something it is long missing now, however what keeps it the master hub now is... "Herd Instinct" Just like China picked Jita 4-4 with no real reason to do so. Perhaps it's because there's an insta-undock at Jita 4-4 that (i assume) other stations don't have, you can instantly warp to either the planet that's pretty much right in front of it, or the station that's pretty much right infront of it.
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.03 19:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Ji Sama What we need is unlimited buy and sell orders, this would also fix 0.0 large fleet scale lag! Reported for trolling.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.03 21:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Indeterminacy Originally by: Ji Sama What we need is unlimited buy and sell orders, this would also fix 0.0 large fleet scale lag! Reported for trolling. Reported for calling JI Sama a troll.. that is ad hominem..! Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2010.08.03 22:54:00 - [19] Originally by: SencneS China picked Jita 4-4 with no real reason to do so. I'm pretty sure "knowledge" in form of already existing player guides had an influence?!! Originally by: Claire Voyant I was around when Yulai was just beginning to take off, and as I recall the one thing that everyone went to Yulai for was to buy and sell implants. [..] I remember mining 1 or 2 jumps from Jita before it became big. The were some major producers that bought raw ore in huge quantities that attracted the miners, but I can't remember exactly which station. Thanks for mentioning the "Implants Story"! I remember being surprised seeing how empty Kusomonmon was compared to the Gallente belts I was dropped near at birth...
Kragaar	Posted - 2010.08.04 16:08:00 - [20] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 03/08/2010 13:44:11 Jita is for many reasons the question was asked a few years back by at a Fan Fest meeting. China runs it's own instance of EVE and was brand new. No market population etc it was on the economical report Dr. E hosted it. So why did China pick Jita? - According to Dr. E the only reason is because.... That's our main market hub.. Pure copy-cat of what was already running. I don't have any knowledge about the China server, but did they pre-reinforce the Jita system on the China server? It could be that Jita was set up to succeed as the market hub if it performs head and shoulders above any other system under heavy player load.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.08.04 19:23:00 - [21] I'm curious. What do people think would be the most "central" system for the most players to get to with the fewest jumps (all high sec jumps except those near the begining of a journey starting from null or low sec) ? Inaro?
Shamuli	Posted - 2010.08.04 19:51:00 - [22] GOod questin
Dezolf Minmatar DAX Action Stance	Posted - 2010.08.04 20:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso I'm curious. What do people think would be the most "central" system for the most players to get to with the fewest jumps (all high sec jumps except those near the begining of a journey starting from null or low sec) ? Inaro? There's a thread about it.. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1363890
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2010.08.05 01:52:00 - [24] Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 05/08/2010 01:52:12 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso I'm curious. What do people think would be the most "central" system for the most players to get to with the fewest jumps (all high sec jumps except those near the begining of a journey starting from null or low sec) ? Inaro? I'm used to do Jita->Hek->Rens->Amarr->TashMurkon->Dodixie->Arnon->Pakhshi->Luse->Stacmon->Jita "round trip" type of flights... and I chose Pakhshi to be my initial flight base. Rental prices are cheap as there's near no mission running going on in Genesis... no mission running, no loot. Arnon, Renyn, Oursulaert, Dodixie -- If those markets somehow would merge, I guess that area might have potential. Artificial region borders impose limits on free choice of marketplace locations, too... i think most regional markets are quite "central" in regards to their regions properties.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.05 14:10:00 - [25] Edited by: SencneS on 05/08/2010 14:10:42 Originally by: Kragaar I don't have any knowledge about the China server, but did they pre-reinforce the Jita system on the China server? It could be that Jita was set up to succeed as the market hub if it performs head and shoulders above any other system under heavy player load. That wasn't mentioned to be honest, or at least from what I remember. Dr.E did focus on it, it was pretty interesting stuff the difference between China's market and "our" market etc. It stands to reason why CCP may have re-enforced Jita knowing that Jita could be picked but it doesn't take much to prepare for that. They could have easily picked any other system but they did choose Jita. Even though say Choosing Perimeter would have saved 80% of people one Jump. I say 80% loosely because New Caldari is also pretty heavy jump in point for Jita, but from New Caldari they can get to Perimeter or Jita so for them it wouldn't have bothered them. From most part of EVE to Jita you jump though Perimeter so while the Chinese could have saved themselves one jump they chose to emulate the current market instead of doing it on their own. If that doesn't sound like Blind following I don't know does :)
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.08.05 14:12:00 - [26] Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

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