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Aizo Achura
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Posted - 2010.08.04 15:00:00 -
[1]
Full disclosure: I do not currently have any T2 BPOs. Also, I am not really bothered by their presence in game.
Argument: T2 BPOs are (correctly) viewed as being unfair to newer players because they are no longer attainable in game, outside of paying ridiculous sums due to their static, finite quantities. Most of those who don't have them and are bothered by their presence in game argue for their removal. Most of those who have invested in them argue that it would be unfair for their investment to be 'patched out'.
Solution: Keep invention in game, but re-introduce the T2 BPO lottery for those items that have been given T2 BPOs in the past. Items which have never had a T2 BPO previously in game should continue to be BPO-less.
Result: The opportunity to get new T2 BPOs is there, nullifying the intrinsically unfair nature of T2 BPOs today. The ridiculous price of T2 BPOs goes down over time due to slowly increasing supply and no longer being a finite resource. Invention remains viable due to its flexibility despite those T2 items with BPOs. It also remains the sole means of T2 creation for those items which will never have their T2 BPOs awarded to players.
Side Benefit: Increased participation in the reintroduced T2 BPO lottery drives down datacore prices, further narrowing the benefit of T2 BPOs for those items which have them.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.08.04 16:00:00 -
[2]
LHA can it be you? |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.04 16:10:00 -
[3]
The main problem with this solution is that initially, the T2 BPOs will still be very valuable. This was the same problem with original lottery in that it was too large of a reward given to too few, creating the caste structure of haves and have-nots. Random luck determines who gets to play EVE in easy mode, and who has to sc**** and fight with the masses.
However, that is only short-term. As the number of BPOs increase, you approach the demand, leaving less and less room for invention. Inventers are forced into fewer and fewer areas driving out profitability, while at the same time you destroy the profitability of the BPOs themselves.
In short, CCP would have 2 choices.
1) Keep the number of new BPOs very, very low, giving too large of a reward to too few, creating a caste system and hate and discontent that accompanied the original lottery and will continue as long as the rarity of the T2 BPOs exists.
2) Flood the game with T2 BPOs, destroying their worth and profitability while also destroying the profitability of invention and R&D agents.
IMO, the absolute best solution would be to replace the current T2 BPOs with BPCs with enough runs to last 5 years. At the same time, fix invention to allow the number of copies to be passed through, but make the number of datacores and other materials required also realtive to the number of copies. Make it less of a click fest by instead of the invention job taking hours, let people do a 10 run that takes a day or two or a 50-100 run that takes a week or more.
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Lirinas
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Posted - 2010.08.04 19:03:00 -
[4]
If the lottery were to be re-introduced, it would need to be re-worked to balance the value of the rewards to come-out of it. Perhaps a "buy-in" of sorts, where people can buy tickets for the lottery (or lotteries). And break this lottery down in "tiers", with more valuable BPO's (like ships) being more expensive to buy-into, while low-value BPO's (like ammunition BPO's) would be cheap to buy into.
Regardless, this post (like all of the other T2-BPO discussions to crop-up lately) belongs in the "Features and Ideas" forum, not here in S&I.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.04 21:53:00 -
[5]
As long as we're already in the "moronic la-la-land of let-us-not-really-consider-all-consequences" ballpark, how about these ideas...
1. Put up T2 BPO sell orders via the appropriate NPCs at x1000 of corresponding T1 BPO price. This will forever put an end to the whines about how unfair it is you can only buy T2 BPOs from other players.
Of course, this won't stop some people from complaining they're too expensive, other people from complaining that some people got them cheaper before the NPC orders came up, and yet another group of people that will actually buy them despite of the price and insanely low (and decreasing) RoI, killing invention profitability in the long run for good for all items.
2. Multiply ALL existing T2 BPOs by a factor of 1000. That is, for each T2 BPO you had before, you will now get one special "no compression" tiny volume container with 1000 BPOs in it instead (to take care of item count overflow issues).
What exactly does this solve, you ask ? Well, I have a feeling very few of the T2 BPO owners will want to run 100 manufacture alts for each of their former BPOs, so expect a firesale on T2 BPOs... and there will be PLENTY of them to go around, so anybody who wants for some reason to get one can get one ASAP, and he can get it dirt-cheap too.
Of course, this would also kill invention dead... but hey, you could add datacores to the T2 BUILD requirements, so that would take care of the datacore harvester income to some degree.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.08.04 22:41:00 -
[6]
While there is definitely an attraction to utterly destroying the specialness of T2 BPOs. This would have the bad side effect of making invention even less useful.
INVENTION IS GOOD.
Its something that needs to be made more significant not something that should be marginalized.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Veccy
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Posted - 2010.08.05 09:34:00 -
[7]
Or ... give invention a tiny weeny chance to give a BPO instead of a BPC on mentioned items ?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.05 10:41:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Veccy
Or ... give invention a tiny weeny chance to give a BPO instead of a BPC on mentioned items ?
"tiny weeny chance" multiplied for several thousand inventors doing potentially several teens of attempts (for modules) or teen attempt (for ships) every day mean one or more BPO produced every day.
To make an example I could easily log to make 4 set of 10 module invention jobs with each of my characters. that is 40 attempts every day.
Let's say 1.000 people do the same.
That is 40.000 attempts every day (and with the prospective to get a BPO a lot more people would do invention).
I doubt that with a "tiny weeny chance" you mean a win rate lower than 1 success every 40K attempts.
Then there is the "little" problem of the first guy that get a Golem BPO making a lot of isk for months with a little ME and PE research while the 10th to get a Golem BPO would look the over saturated Golem market and say a lot of swear words.
The first T2 items to feel the effect of this kind of change would be those that have good margins for inventors as those are the items where there are plenty of inventors.
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Guilliman R
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.05 11:18:00 -
[9]
How about 0.0000000000000000001% chance to invent a BPO instead of a BPC? BPO has -20me -20pe.
The chance of it happening is so low it's be meaningless to "farm invent" but once and a while, bingo!
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Aizo Achura
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Posted - 2010.08.05 14:25:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Aizo Achura on 05/08/2010 14:26:26
I've personally always favored ignoring T2 BPOs altogether, and then changing decryptors to base the end ME/PE results of the invented T2 BPC off the ME/PE of the T1 BPC used in the invention process. This is not to say a 'one for one correspondence' because T2 ME/PE levels don't translate like that. You'd need to move from the '% of perfect' researched on the T1 BPC to some '% of perfect' on for ME or PE on the T2 BPC using formulas which I'm far too lazy to theory craft.
The point, I think, is that the issue is not so much that T2 BPOs exist... but that they are finite, offer a substantial advantage over invented BPCs for a given item being produced, were once acquired from NPCs by players and no longer are available in such a way to new players. There are ways to address all or most of those issues without resorting to the mantra of 'remove T2 BPOs' which crops up every month or so.
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Qoi
Exert Force
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Posted - 2010.08.05 15:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Veccy
Or ... give invention a tiny weeny chance to give a BPO instead of a BPC on mentioned items ?
Reducing profit for inventors.
Could you please leave the ONLY sensible and well thought-out industrial game mechanic in the whole game intact. (I'm talking about invention here, not t2 manufacturing with the idiotic moon mineral bottlenecks)
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Richard Christy
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Posted - 2010.08.05 16:28:00 -
[12]
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Sheboomboom
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Posted - 2010.08.05 16:31:00 -
[13]
Hi, long time reader, first time poster.
I have a love/hate relationship w/ invention. Read a lot of posts over the years about the t2 bpo problem.
But has anyone ever wondered about, instead of more or less bpo's, just have research agents offer a random bpc at random times of btwn -2 to +2 ME w/ btwn 1-6 runs?
Might even create better t2 bpc contract market.
Because really, 2yrs playing and I've never read anything about CCP even hinting at changing/fixing/re-evaluating t2 production.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.05 16:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aizo Achura
I've personally always favored ignoring T2 BPOs altogether, and then changing decryptors to base the end ME/PE results of the invented T2 BPC off the ME/PE of the T1 BPC used in the invention process.
T1, anyone can do it easly, so no profit in it. (actually, I think it is rat drop and imability to manufacture named that destroys T1 profitability, but that is another topic.)
T2 they wanted to keep a better profit mnargin so came up with the idea of limited number of T2 BPOs. I'm not sure they thought it threw, because what they did was create a caste systems of haves that got to play EVE in easy mode raking in ginormous profits at the expense ot the vast unwashed masses.
Go back 3-4 years or so and read some of the threads about the lottery and the hate and discontent it created. UGLY!
So, CCP has to get rid of lottery, so they replace it with invention. High skill requirements, lab slot rarity creating need to run a POS, and other general suckiness of it will keep it from being something "everyone" is doing so that there is still some profit in it (no to mention that rats don't drop T2).
BUT, many of the T2 BPOs had already changed hands. People had spent HUGE money on them and would have been truely ummmm IRKED if CCP has instantly destroyed that value. So, CCP created invention to suck. Negative ME so manufacturing with an invented BPC costs 40% more than BPO. This keeps the BPO holders happy while ending lottery and creating another way for industrialists to make money, reason to have a POS, etc.
BUT, in reality, what they did by leaving behind the BPOs and making invented BPOs sock is lock in the caste system, locking in the hate and discontent of the haves and "sorry, but you're never going to have a reasonible chance to have because you started too late."
JUST changing invention to pass through ME would instantly destroy the value of the BPOs, and CCP isn't going to do that. These are some of their oldest and most hard-core players and no way are they going to... irk them off like that.
Which, of course, is why MY thread was titles "mechanism for removing T2 BPOs". CCP has to come up with some way of compensating the current holders when removing the BPOs or making some other change that greatly decreases their value.
My ideal is to convert them into BPCs with 5 years worth of runs. The people that like the current caste system of haves and have-nots, obviously don't like this idea much. They like playing in easy mode.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.05 17:12:00 -
[15]
lol posting in an amusing LHA alt thread.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.05 17:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
lol posting in an amusing LHA alt thread.
Fail attempt to pretend I'm the only one who cares. LHA Tarawa IS my forum alt and I have no others that I post under.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.08.05 18:00:00 -
[17]
Players can run a T2 BPO lottery without interferance from ccp.
Why not buy a T2 bpo and sell lottery tickets for it.
In this instance the gamble by the players entering the lottery will be in the form of iskies of course.
In the original ccp created lottery, player investment was in the form of characters and skill points ( skill points spent of research project management and industry skills , instead of on combat skills which would give a guaranted faster isk return by way of faster ratting ).
This is a point missed by most T2 BPO haters.
Lottery entry in the ccp lottery was not free, it required investement , it was a GAMBLE.
some people won some people didnt.
If you want to gamble on a T2 BPO today, its still possible.
Its just the lotteries are run by players for iskies rather than ccp for alt char dollars.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.05 18:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Players can run a T2 BPO lottery without interferance from ccp.
1) The original lottery did not require ISK, just sign up with R&D agents.
2) Trust
3) Not a reasonible chance to win, even if it wasn't a scam.
4) Doesn't resolve the caste syetem of haves and have-nots that was created by the original lottery where too valuable of items were given to too few players.
5) Still doesn't put newer players on level playing field with older players.
6) Doesn't resolve the hate and discontent that originated from the original lottery, and was perpetuated by leaving the T2 BPOs behind when lottery was removed.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.08.05 18:57:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/08/2010 18:57:50
Wow ive never heard these arguments before!!!
Mooooo i say!!!
Moooooooooo
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.08.05 19:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Dav Varan
Players can run a T2 BPO lottery without interferance from ccp.
1) The original lottery did not require ISK, just sign up with R&D agents.
2) Trust
3) Not a reasonible chance to win, even if it wasn't a scam.
4) Doesn't resolve the caste syetem of haves and have-nots that was created by the original lottery where too valuable of items were given to too few players.
5) Still doesn't put newer players on level playing field with older players.
6) Doesn't resolve the hate and discontent that originated from the original lottery, and was perpetuated by leaving the T2 BPOs behind when lottery was removed.
1) Try reading. No one stated the ccp lottery required isk.
Skill points are required in RPM and Industry skills to gain rp.
Skill points have an isk value ( I dont know what the conversion rate is , check character transfer forums )
GameTime also has an isk equivelent this becomes a factor when using science alts for rp.
What is the going rate for a PLEX ? 300M ? lets say it is for ease of maths
3 alt chars on an account = 100M isk per month per alt char.
yes I know plexes wernt available back when the ccp lottery was running , but chars could have been converted to isk through character transfers whether they be combat or science alts.
Everything in the game has an isk value.
2) chribba
3) more reasonable than the ccp lottery.
4) It was a long shot gamble with fabulous prizes ( dont you play euro millions ? ).
Personally I love long odds / huge rewards type gambles.
5) Only grind will do that.
Most old players dont grind anymore , but belive me in the past 99.9999% of players had to grind.
6) some peoples hate is irrational , and if its not focused on one thing it will be focused on another.
It is still possible for you to win a lottery , all you have to do is enter one.
If you cant find a T2 bpo lottery , you can always play another type and sell the proceeds and then buy a T2 bpo if that is what you want.
I entered the ccp lottery.
I had to train up months and months of skills I didnt need for anything else except rp accumulation.
This was at a time when I was starting out and my missile skills and shield skills and hull skills , not to mention learning were all crying out for attention.
But I left those aside and instead gambled on the lottery.
I dont know how much that cost me in isk equivelent , but it would not have been insubstantial , I was in a bb for ages when what I really needed was a raven. ( before drake days ).
And what did I get for these months of BB pergatory?
I got a Conflagration Medium Blueprint which I sold for 2B iirc.
So looking at isk lost through forever delaying my combat/ratting skill progression. I would say I broke even
or maybe even lost.
No dude you are wrong.
Entry to the ccp lottery was FAR FROM FREE.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.05 19:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dav Varan
4) It was a long shot gamble with fabulous prizes ( dont you play euro millions ? ).
Personally I love long odds / huge rewards type gambles.
Lotto
noun
A tax on people that are really bad at math.
A gimic to get fools to willingly double or even tripple pay thier taxes.
10 million people pitch in $1 each. Winner gets $5 million, then has to pay $2 million of that to the government for taxes.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.08.05 20:04:00 -
[22]
I wish all my taxes were optional.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.05 23:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dav Varan
I wish all my taxes were optional.
Me too, because then I'd choose to not pay any, just like I choose to not pay the lotto tax.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.08.05 23:42:00 -
[24]
So because you dont like lotteries they should not be allowed ?
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Fuzz Nut
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Posted - 2010.08.06 00:31:00 -
[25]
T2 BPO should be on the market now with T3 production introduction
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Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.08.06 01:39:00 -
[26]
I'd prefer 2 new skills 1 for pe 1 for me just have invented bpc's get a bonus/lvl of skill or have skill effect building as if me/pe 1 lvl higher/skill lvl
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Cyniac
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Posted - 2010.08.06 15:14:00 -
[27]
While we are on this story - Another half baked idea.
Ignore the problem (mostly because well, its not much of a problem for your average capsuleer). Continue to develop the environment and introduce additional T2 modules and ships.
The consequence would be that a smaller proportion of the items would be affected at all by this whole BPO issue and invention would benefit, BPO owners would not be concerned (provided the stuff was not too OP) and hey everyone likes new toys right?
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Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.06 16:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Qoi
Originally by: Veccy
Or ... give invention a tiny weeny chance to give a BPO instead of a BPC on mentioned items ?
Reducing profit for inventors.
Could you please leave the ONLY sensible and well thought-out industrial game mechanic in the whole game intact. (I'm talking about invention here, not t2 manufacturing with the idiotic moon mineral bottlenecks)
I like the idea of eventually reintroducing T2 BPOs, but I think they should hold off until a T3 version of the ship/module is developed. Invention should represent the cutting edge of technology, while BPOs should create more efficiency in the technology that's been around for a while.
Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :) |
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