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Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 00:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
I believe the hurricane and drake are simply too versatile and cheap.
Everyone and their grandmother flies one. Even low skilled poor noobs fly them.
There needs to be more variety in the game.
Battlecruisers should not be a go to ship for 9/10 situations as they currently are.
Their cost effectiveness needs to be reduced. Battlecruisers are only a little bit more expensive than flying Cruisers considering Insurance.
Their tank and dps completely obsolete cruisers and creep into battleship territory.
They are able to take on a wide variety of targets ranging from frigates to capitals.
The hurricane is one such ship that can easily destroy frigates due to the tracking and range of autocannons, along with the ability to fit dual webs and dual neuts.
The hurricane is simply superior to the harbinger, due to the lower pg requirements of autocannons that allows much better options.
Autocannon PG requirements needs to be increased to be brought in line with other medium short range turrets, or short range and long range medium lasers need to be reduced in PG need.
The hurricane is nearly as fast or even faster than regular cruisers.
The drake has very good damage projection and tank. It has the tendency to outlast and destroy any sub battlecruiser ships.
The harbinger and the myrmidon however are limited to specific situations.
The myrmidon works well for 1 vs 1 situations at close range, but is slow and can easily be overwhelmed.
The harbinger is a ship with good damage projections, but is more suited to fleets and has a strong weakness to neuts.
The drake and hurricane should be readjusted to the same level as the harbinger and the myrmidon. |

Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
78
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 02:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Myrmidon can beat a drake head to head easily.
I can't really decide whether the hurricane itself needs nerfed or if it's more a statement on projectiles and (to a much lesser extent) neuts. However, if there are no changes to projectiles or neuts, the hurricane needs to lose a few hundred PG. Full rack of capless guns+two medium neuts is just stupid. I'd definitely like to see a projectile rework prior to any permanent hurricane balancing.
Drake rebalance is in the works, so I won't say anything about it. |

Belthazor4011
Battle BV I Know Right
33
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 02:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
For some reason everyone loves these two ships and well I dont that much lol.
I kill Drakes in cruisers and the cane has never really scared me either. A buddy of mine killed 2 Canes at the same time with 1 Cyclone and one of the two canes was flown by a good pilot in a well fitted Cane.
The Myrm is beyond awesome and I'll fight any cane or drake in one.
And as you said the Harb has great damage projection and it works well in fleets, eh isnt that you just saying it has its uses?!
Just cause everyone drank the kool aid doesn't make it true... |

Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
394
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 02:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP are on the case re ship balancing so you can stop bringing it up. That said, other ships should be improved, not the good ones nerfed. |

Whar Target
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Did you seriously make a thread to state that two battlecruisers are able to kill frigates and cruisers and this somehow makes them OP? Wtf?
Just no...all around just no..
Nuets are the primary defense against being swarmed by frigs, and most importantly, the main reason for people to think about cracking open that wallet and buying a bigger ship. Over half the players you run into in low sec are in frigates, not because they offer some tactical advantage, but because they are scared to fly a real ship.
As far as balance between the different races BC's, that's slated to be addressed, so nothing to talk about there. Lasers with scorch give autocannons a run for the money any day.
And a power grid nerf on minmatar? You must want artillery removed from the game because even with AWU5 there are minmatar ships that need multiple power grid mods to fit the max size artillery as well as a tank and prop mod, so no, I don't think they need a PG nerf at all.. Also look at the range on autocannons with a given ammo when you consider the paper dps. At one falloff it's half the paper dps.
TLDR OP is an amarr pilot and seemingly one who has an aversion to flying man-ships (BC+) and this has caused him to request bc nerfs. |

Traejun DiSanctis
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Belthazor4011 wrote:For some reason everyone loves these two ships and well I dont that much lol.
I kill Drakes in cruisers and the cane has never really scared me either. A buddy of mine killed 2 Canes at the same time with 1 Cyclone and one of the two canes was flown by a good pilot in a well fitted Cane.
The Myrm is beyond awesome and I'll fight any cane or drake in one.
And as you said the Harb has great damage projection and it works well in fleets, eh isnt that you just saying it has its uses?!
Just cause everyone drank the kool aid doesn't make it true...
No question re the Myrmidon. But only if you can pick initial engagement range. I can kite a blaster Myrm in a HAM nano/mwd Drake and just outlast it. But if the Myrm gets in on me, it's going to be a bad day. With HML's and initial engagement control, there isn't a T1 BC out there that can do anything 1v1 other than run away. Only issue with that is that I'd need separate tackle.
As for the 'Cane, it's an excellent combination of close range firepower, speed and tank. An A/C dual-web armor 'Cane can make short work of almost anything in a knife fight while the Arty shield 'Cane can kite almost as well as an HML Drake can.
The Harby is the only primary T1 BC that has issues - namely: (1) weakness to neuts; (2) fitting issues; and (3) limited target selection. |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
574
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Marzuq wrote:The drake and hurricane should be readjusted to the same level as the harbinger and the myrmidon.
Even if I accepted all of your premises -- and I don't, but that's for another time -- you haven't supported this conclusion in the least. Do you see why? |

Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Whar Target wrote:Did you seriously make a thread to state that two battlecruisers are able to kill frigates and cruisers and this somehow makes them OP? Wtf?
Just no...all around just no..
Nuets are the primary defense against being swarmed by frigs, and most importantly, the main reason for people to think about cracking open that wallet and buying a bigger ship. Over half the players you run into in low sec are in frigates, not because they offer some tactical advantage, but because they are scared to fly a real ship.
As far as balance between the different races BC's, that's slated to be addressed, so nothing to talk about there. Lasers with scorch give autocannons a run for the money any day.
And a power grid nerf on minmatar? You must want artillery removed from the game because even with AWU5 there are minmatar ships that need multiple power grid mods to fit the max size artillery as well as a tank and prop mod, so no, I don't think they need a PG nerf at all.. Also look at the range on autocannons with a given ammo when you consider the paper dps. At one falloff it's half the paper dps.
TLDR OP is an amarr pilot and seemingly one who has an aversion to flying man-ships (BC+) and this has caused him to request bc nerfs.
Why does a Hurricane be able to fit 220mm's, 1600mm, and 2 medium neuts. While a Harbinger can only fit 1600mm's, FMPs, and not have enough fitting to use its utility high?
You worry about artillery, but what about Amarr with beam lasers, you hardly see any ships fit those do you? The harbinger doesn't work with beams, while your hurricane can. How is that fair? The beam harbinger can't even fit a single ounce of tank that the hurricane can with artillery.
Either Amarr should be given more powergrid, or minmatar needs a reduction to balance the field.
Sure scorch makes pulses good, but compare beam lasers to artillery, its no contest.
Minmatar outranks amarr is several categories.
Superior Frigates Superior Cruisers Superior Destroyer Superior Battlecruiser
Battleships are more or less equal in ways
Works well in solo and gangs
What does Amarr have?
Better capitals.
Sucks for solo pvp.
Hence the term "Winmatar". |

Traejun DiSanctis
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 03:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marzuq wrote:Whar Target wrote:Did you seriously make a thread to state that two battlecruisers are able to kill frigates and cruisers and this somehow makes them OP? Wtf?
Just no...all around just no..
Nuets are the primary defense against being swarmed by frigs, and most importantly, the main reason for people to think about cracking open that wallet and buying a bigger ship. Over half the players you run into in low sec are in frigates, not because they offer some tactical advantage, but because they are scared to fly a real ship.
As far as balance between the different races BC's, that's slated to be addressed, so nothing to talk about there. Lasers with scorch give autocannons a run for the money any day.
And a power grid nerf on minmatar? You must want artillery removed from the game because even with AWU5 there are minmatar ships that need multiple power grid mods to fit the max size artillery as well as a tank and prop mod, so no, I don't think they need a PG nerf at all.. Also look at the range on autocannons with a given ammo when you consider the paper dps. At one falloff it's half the paper dps.
TLDR OP is an amarr pilot and seemingly one who has an aversion to flying man-ships (BC+) and this has caused him to request bc nerfs. Either Amarr should be given more powergrid, or minmatar needs a reduction to balance the field. Sure scorch makes pulses good, but compare beam lasers to artillery, its no contest.
I agree with these statements. Amarr ships (particularly BC and below) need more PG to be able to utilize it's slots. And I agree to an extent on the use of beam lasers in PvP. They DEFINITELY have their value in PvE, but in PvP, it's pulse or GTFO. I think you're overstating your position a little, but you are generally on point. |

Armeggeda iscariah
Ganja Labs Exodus.
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 05:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oh boy another "NERF THESE SHIPS BECAUSE I PROBABLY DIED TO THEM TO MUCH OR I CANT FLY THEM CORRECTLY" thread. 
Learn to counter the ship. like really.
And let me laugh at you on several points.
Their tank and dps completely obsolete cruisers and creep into battleship territory. Lol what. geddons can get 1.2k dps and 20k worth of armor. and they are the cheapest bs around. Tempests definitly get more dmg. then a cane ever could. Do i even need to point out the maelstrom or abbadon ? And on the case of obsoleting cruiser , No ******* **** sherlock holmes. Thats the point of it being a step up from cruisers. they do more dps and tank. But yes lets nerf BC's because were all stupid and want every ship to be on the same level because your to stupid to figure out the class difference of ships on a game.
They are able to take on a wide variety of targets ranging from frigates to capitals. Thats the point of the battlecruiser hull. they are DESIGNED to be versitile In RL and game.
The drake has very good damage projection and tank. It has the tendency to outlast and destroy any sub battlecruiser ships. I really cant beleive i saw this statement. Caracals can outrange a drake. and if your stupid enough to sit there and get plinked by a drake at 50kms in your t1 cruiser without outrunning it or warping you deserve to die.
The harbinger is a ship with good damage projections, but is more suited to fleets and has a strong weakness to neuts. Id seriously love to see a harbinger fleet. But no ive seen more solo harbi's then canes.
The drake and hurricane should be readjusted to the same level as the harbinger and the myrmidon. Stupid statement within itself. Every ship in eve has its own niche and has its own situations. If your seriously to stupid to relise this then quit eve and go play WoW. Seriously go fight RvB with a drake or cane and see how fast they whelp you with t1 cruisers m8 --------------------------------------He who dares , wins. |

Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
11
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 05:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Armeggeda iscariah wrote:Oh boy another "NERF THESE SHIPS BECAUSE I PROBABLY DIED TO THEM TO MUCH OR I CANT FLY THEM CORRECTLY" thread.  Learn to counter the ship. like really. And let me laugh at you on several points. Their tank and dps completely obsolete cruisers and creep into battleship territory. Lol what. geddons can get 1.2k dps and 20k worth of armor. and they are the cheapest bs around. Tempests definitly get more dmg. then a cane ever could. Do i even need to point out the maelstrom or abbadon ? And on the case of obsoleting cruiser , No ******* **** sherlock holmes. Thats the point of it being a step up from cruisers. they do more dps and tank. But yes lets nerf BC's because were all stupid and want every ship to be on the same level because your to stupid to figure out the class difference of ships on a game. They are able to take on a wide variety of targets ranging from frigates to capitals. Thats the point of the battlecruiser hull. they are DESIGNED to be versitile In RL and game. The drake has very good damage projection and tank. It has the tendency to outlast and destroy any sub battlecruiser ships. I really cant beleive i saw this statement. Caracals can outrange a drake. and if your stupid enough to sit there and get plinked by a drake at 50kms in your t1 cruiser without outrunning it or warping you deserve to die. The harbinger is a ship with good damage projections, but is more suited to fleets and has a strong weakness to neuts.Id seriously love to see a harbinger fleet. But no ive seen more solo harbi's then canes. The drake and hurricane should be readjusted to the same level as the harbinger and the myrmidon.Stupid statement within itself. Every ship in eve has its own niche and has its own situations. If your seriously to stupid to relise this then quit eve and go play WoW. Seriously go fight RvB with a drake or cane and see how fast they whelp you with t1 cruisers m8
You just don't want your winmatar ships gone.
A battlecruisers can easily kill a cruiser. Blobbing doesn't mean anything.
A battlecruiser in RL is a fast moving ship with big guns, its defences are weak. Tier 3 BC are TRUE BCs.
Lol you must be mad cause your got you ass kicked in ATX. Lolololol Cry more baby. |

SB Rico
the united Negative Ten.
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 06:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
My thoughts on this as someone capable of flying 4 races of combat ship:
Drake and cane are op
Not completely true, in game rather than EFT a harby is capable of similar effective dps to a cane. A mym is capable of similar defense to a drake (although trip rep fits are cap hungry, but who else remembers the passive shield myrm)
Battlecruisers are unbalanced
Straight no, they are supposed to bridge the gap between BS and Cruiser and they acheive this by being better at tanking and DPS than a cruiser but worse than a BS. Ok they are faster but not compared to their racial cruisers (a stabber is faster than a cane).
Minmatar and Caldari are OP
This may be true but it is a result of the old nano tactic resurfacing. Armor ships struggle to kite (key word struggle before someone tries to argue with me), Gallente have never recovered from the nano-nerf even with blaster buff and amarr may just have been caught up by the return of the nano-ship.
CCP should nerf the drake/cane
NO, CCP often nerfs things to rebalance, I would ask them to consider a new approach Buff the others. If one race or tactic gets too far ahead CCP traditionally wield the hammer, this causes resentment from people who enjoyed the ship/tactic in question. Why not try improving the alternatives, this creates excitement for pilots of the other races and theorycrafters who get to try new hulls/fits/tactics they had previously overlooked. |

SB Rico
the united Negative Ten.
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 06:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oh an off topic comment here, apologies.
One thing does possibly need rebalance is amarr BS, they need something done about the cap use as even with no other cap using modules Large pulse lasers cap the ship out in 5-10 minutes.
I feel that a BS should be capable of sustained fire in a long engagement, you do run out of cap boosters eventually . |

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 06:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think part of it stems from the fact that the cane and drake's bonuses are direct, universally useful bonuses to damage and tank. There is virtually no situation where the hurricane or drake's bonuses will not help them.
The Myrm's repper bonus is useless in anything bigger than a 3v3 or thereabouts, and the drones don't tend to survive well either.
The Harbinger's lack of a real second bonus makes it inherently inferior to the hurricane, and having one less utility high from the extra turret (but still less damage) doesn't help.
Then there's the Tier 1's.
Brutix's armor rep bonus- Same as myrm but with the brutix's fitting restrictions.
Cyclone's active bonus- Only useful because of ASB's, and even with an xl asb, once the enemy has 8-10 people there's not much you can do.
Feroxes optimal bonus- Useful for rails, but the dps output on a rail ferox is pathetic. Not so useful on blasters, so I guess it gets half a point?
Prophecy's turret cap bonus- Again, mostly useless when you consider what it'd be like with a damage bonus instead. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop. |

Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
18
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 07:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marzuq wrote:I believe the hurricane and drake are simply too versatile and cheap.
Everyone and their grandmother flies one. Even low skilled poor noobs fly them.
Let me stop you right there. A "low skilled poor noob" heard that goons are massing Drakes and that they have an awesome tank. OMGWANT and 2 minutes later, he has a Drake (probably with passive tank), thinking he's ready to pvp. Such a pilot is a liability to the fleet, not its strength.
Can Drakes/Canes be used in a number of ways? Absolutely. Are they popular ships? Hell yeah. Does that make them overpowered? Far from it. Both have clear and well defined counters - it is up to the players to figure them out and use them. |

Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
28
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 08:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Marzuq wrote: Their tank and dps completely obsolete cruisers and creep into battleship territory.
They are able to take on a wide variety of targets ranging from frigates to capitals.
Not really.
It is a fact that they do somewhat render cruisers pointless, due to, for not a lot more cost, having more EHP and more DPS then they do, while retaining some mobility. They are not as fast or as mobile as cruisers, though. That's just foolish to say.
As for the "wide variety of targets" - solo, they can very well fight sub-BS ships, depending on fits and such, alone. BS they can run from, of course. In gangs naturally you can fight everything with anything. Some ships (a few BS) have even wider target selection.
That isn't, however, broken. There should be some advantage in bringing a bigger, easier to tackle, and more expensive ship. If they were defenseless to smaller, cheaper, harder to tackle, easier to tackle with ships... wouldn't that be broken balance?
If anything, if more ships could be fitted to be able to fight a wide range of targets, wouldn't it result in more viable ships and not less?
Drake and Hurricane are fine. Harbinger could use a bit more fitting or something, but is generally fine and decent in shield/nano fits. Myrmidon has a useless bonus (depending how you look at it) and, in my view, lacks fitting, but is actually not that worthless. |

Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
42
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Autocanon are way too easy to fit, by far. No other weapon system allow you to fit a whole rack of your top tier guns and two neut. As said before, a harbinger cannot even fit one neut when he have all it's guns. Remove one gun to make it in line with the hurricane, and you may be able to fit one neut, not two.
If the PG of minmatar ship is balance regarding arties, then autocanon fitting are completely unbalanced. Anyone but minmatar ave to make *sacrifices* to fit neut ; that's not fair considering the other advantages of autocanon (namely : capless, very good damage application, damage type selection, tracking). |

Mike Whiite
Keystone Industrial
63
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
SB Rico wrote:My thoughts on this as someone capable of flying 4 races of combat ship:
Minmatar and Caldari are OP
This may be true but it is a result of the old nano tactic resurfacing. Armor ships struggle to kite (key word struggle before someone tries to argue with me), Gallente have never recovered from the nano-nerf even with blaster buff and amarr may just have been caught up by the return of the nano-ship.
CCP should nerf the drake/cane
Partly true, I think the problem lies as much in the fact that some Minmatar and Caldari ships, need to do to much.
Minmatar: Fire long and short range projectiles, be able to tank both shield and armor. That asks for a rather optimal lay out for speed, cpu, Powergrid and slot layout.
Caldari missiles ships: Fire long and short range missiles. be able to tank short range even though the signature radius of many Caldari ships is almost big enough to hide a class bigger minmatar ship behind.
These needs usualy end up in one a very powerful or two a hardly use ships.
I've flown more Caldari ships than minmatar and concerning those I think they would be better ballanced if they either would bring out more missiles ships for both long and short range.
Or revist missiles as a whole. create 1 type of missiles smal, medium and large, give the caldari issiles ships a lot of mid slots and let range depend from a midslot module.
so the standaard missiles would be rather short ranged, and by placing lets say (A missile fuel bay module) you could enhance the range, though by offering mid slots that could hold shield modules. |

Abannan
Moira. Villore Accords
18
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
The myrm is fantastic and anyone who says otherwise just can't figure out how to fly it properly (#pickyourengagements) |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
oh look, yet another 'nerf drake' thread. i think i'll start a collection...
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Jez Ex
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 10:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Harby will get some lovin when they get to BC rebalancing. Nothing wrong with Drake and Cane.
The fault lies with harbs fitting req and hull bonus like most amarr t1 ships BC and under. |

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
309
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'd have to agree that it seems a bit borked that AC's have such ease of fitting compared to the other guns. I think cruiser blasters/ac's PG use should be rebalanced so that a full rack of mid lvl short range weapons (ion/220'mm) should fit on their gunboat BC with enough grid for MWD, 1600 plate and maybe a couple med neut or neut/injector. The largest guns (neutrons/425mm) should be 35% more PG use. The amarr weapons should have PG adjusted the same but for heavy pulse laser. A tracking bonus to smaller guns might be in order to bring some relevance to them
This should make things a bit fairer overall, and liberate cruisers a little There should be a rather awesome pic here |

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
The thing with Autocannons is that they benefit too much from Tracking Enhancers.
A Tracking Enhancer will actually increase DPS more than a Gyrostabilizer at >20 km or so (at the cruiser level). They become a viable alternative to pulse lasers with Scorch which is just wrong considering how many advantages they have on lasers.
Tracking Enhancer falloff bonus should be reduced from 30% to 15%.
Optimal rigs are +15%, falloff rigs are +15% but Tracking Enhancers give +15% optimal and +30% falloff? That never made sense. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
260
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Copine Callmeknau wrote:I'd have to agree that it seems a bit borked that AC's have such ease of fitting compared to the other guns. I think cruiser blasters/ac's PG use should be rebalanced so that a full rack of mid lvl short range weapons (ion/220'mm) should fit on their gunboat BC with enough grid for MWD, 1600 plate and maybe a couple med neut or neut/injector. The largest guns (neutrons/425mm) should be 35% more PG use. The amarr weapons should have PG adjusted the same but for heavy pulse laser. A tracking bonus to smaller guns might be in order to bring some relevance to them
This should make things a bit fairer overall, and liberate cruisers a little how do you expect ccp to implement all this and not **** it up even more?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
28
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:No other weapon system allow you to fit a whole rack of your top tier guns and two neut. As said before, a harbinger cannot even fit one neut when he have all it's guns.
Shield Harbinger, the same as shield Hurricane, can fit a neut (in case of shield Hurricane, two neuts). Armour Harbinger can't, and the ship has insufficient fitting for a good armour fit (or a good beam fit). Armour Hurricane also can't fit two neuts without splitting the guns as far as I recall (you can, however, fit HAMs, which is often better anyway).
Anyway, all good ships, and by good ships I mean ships which are worth flying, can fit a full rack of top tier guns without serious issues. Shield Harbinger, Hurricanes, Drakes, shield Myrmidon (sadly, has one worthless bonus), shield Brutix (shame about one worthless bonus and -1 slot compared to Cyclone) , all Tier 3 BCs, almost all battleships, T3s, most HACs, even newly rebalanced frigates, etc.
This leaves various bad ships, like some Tier 1 BCs, most cruisers, some AFs, etc. These have fitting issues, slot issues (because of tiers), and contain some incredibly worthless/comedy ships (although some AFs have been boosted to decent status).
These ships are the problem (and they are comparatively much less used), which is probably going to get fixed in the upcoming rebalance + tiericide. Look at what they did in frig rebalance - now Merlins and such can fit neutrons just fine, and are perfectly competitive ships in the previously Rifter-dominated landscape. It's a more appealing way to balance then nerfing more then half of the ships in EVE. |

SB Rico
the united Negative Ten.
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cpt Branko wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:No other weapon system allow you to fit a whole rack of your top tier guns and two neut. As said before, a harbinger cannot even fit one neut when he have all it's guns.
It's a more appealing way to balance then nerfing more then half of the ships in EVE.
CCP this is the attitude you need, don't nerf, fix
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
From a minmatar-point-of-view:
AC's are not really OP cause: - your damage is subpar to every other shortranged weapon system anyways - having the ability to shoot 'longer range' in your falloff results in you dealing potentially more damage than your opponent, but with loldps. Unlike a Harby, that hits for 550 dps at 35km, a cane hits for 600 at 1km, for 300 at 10, and at 20 you don't really have much left. - yes minmatar ships got a ton of cpu and PG, but remember that unlike caldari and amarr you have to use your brain to fit your ship, since you barely have a slot layout that matches the ship role, very unlike to the drake as the most extreme example. So while you are supposed to be a shield tanking race, almost every minmatarship is actually an armortanker :/ (soloships (vaga, cyna, similiar) aside)
So if you can't fit a neut on your harby, consider using an ACR in the same way mostly everyone who doesn't run with cookiecutterfits needs to fit :S
Else, try solowork in a cane. Pls don't cry when you see how ****** the cane's tank is in reality. And how ****** your dps in reality is when outside of spittingrange. TQ =/= EFT |

Kalel Nimrott
Wishful Desires Inc. Armada Assail
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:CCP are on the case re ship balancing so you can stop bringing it up. That said, other ships should be improved, not the good ones nerfed. This, people. This. |

Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
42
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Posted - 2012.07.25 14:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
I tend to think that when one thing is better than all the others, then you should nerf this thing instead of buffing the others. Less changes imply less chances of breaking everything.
Though I admit it's not that simple in an ecosystem, but that would rather be a reason to make as little changes as we can instead of the contrary. Anyway, no one care about ecosystem here. |

Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
117
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Posted - 2012.07.25 19:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
While I do not exactly agree with OP to a full extent, I have to say that there is an imbalance between autocannons and other short range weapons.
Autocannons are ridiculously easy to fit compared to blasters or pulse lasers.
Minmatar ships have lots of powergrid because of the high PG cost of artillery, but when fitting low cost autocannons, it leaves open an abundant amount of fittings to optimize on tank, propulsion, utility, neuts, etc.
Amarr and Gallente do not have this capability.
The strongest autocannon has lower fitting that middle range pulse lasers and blasters.
Autocannons may do less dps than both, but minmatar ships tend to have double weapon bonuses to compensate for that weakness (double rof and damage bonus).
Autocannons make up for the weaker damage for damage selection. Lasers and Hybrids cannot change their damage types.
For example we have a sleipnir going against and absolution.
The sleipnir has high EM/therm resist while the Absolution has high Exp/Kin resists.
The absolution is stuck with Em/therm and will always be shooting at the sleipnir's highest resists.
The sleipnir can use Phased Plasma or EMP and hit the weakest resists of the Absolution. Doing much more effective dps(the sleipnir already outdpses the Absolution by eft damage alone).
Autocannons gain a massive range bonus from tracking enhancers with 30% falloff bonus.
Pulse lasers have scorch resulting in a long optimal, but very short falloff. The short falloff is a downfall in that pulse will do virtually no damage beyond their optimal.
Autocannons will hit with lesser damage, but regardless hit their target beyond the range of pulse lasers. Barrage 50% falloff bonus on top of 30% tracking enhancer bonus is a big bonus.
So the range difference between Pulses and Autocannons are balanced.
Autocannons have tracking close to blasters, while having many times the range. Pulse lasers suffer from low tracking compared to other short range weapons.
Autocannons use no capacitor to fire. Blaster boats and Pulse boats are helpless when neuted.
Last but not least Projectile ammo has a bonus to tracking which is infinitely better than the cap use reduction of hybrid charges and frequency crystals.
TLDR:
Autocannons are superior to other short range guns due to: -Low fitting costs on minmatar ships with high fitting -Lower damage put on par with minmatar ships with dual weapon dps bonuses -Selectable Damage Type to do more effective dps than lasers or blasters -Use no capacitor to fire -Benefits greatly from tracking enhancers of 30%+ to falloff with 50% bonus with barrage to be able to reach very far -Very good tracking with good range -Has ammo has boosts tracking rather than cap usage.
I believe that autocannons should be a model for short range weapons to be balanced around.
Lasers definitely needs a look at after the projectile and hybrid changes.
Blasters could also be given something as well. |
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